"Vanilla shame" - yet another byproduct of liberal feminism?

submitted by vitunrotta from self.GenderCritical

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[–]TalkToTheVoid 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I almost completely agree with you. I'm not super sure where I've landed on other people doing consensual things in privacy.

What I know I'm super sure about is that shaming anyone for "vanilla" sex is the worst.

Very recently, a friend of mine was shamed by a so called feminist man she met on Tinder, using exactly this word - "vanilla". She said she hasn't tried anal sex and is also not interested in it, and he dismissively called her vanilla. She wasn't as incensed as I was about it, but after we'd discussed it a bit, she did think it warranted some push back. So she told him it isn't cool to shame her for her sex-related boundaries, and he said he "wasn't judging". Really? Why would you feel the need to call a prospective sex-partner boring, if not to judge them as a sex-partner? She then asked him if HE would want to be anally penetrated, since as a man he's got a prostate and will feel it more, and suddenly he was all defensive and "I'm vanilla too". Except he called only her vanilla to begin with when they were discussing sex, and admitted to his own vanillaness only after she pushed back the next time they talked.

It was so obvious he'd never even considered the question. As a straight-man he was so sure he should get to put his penis anywhere he wants to, and a woman who disagrees is being a boring stick in the mud. But his anus is obviously not in play.

This type of man uses "feminist" like a weapon to disarm women. I'm so mad even thinking about him again.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not super sure where I've landed on other people doing consensual things in privacy.

This is an important note. I wanted to write more but noticed my text was already getting quite lengthy, so I was hoping we could continue discussing in more nuance in the comment section.

To me personally it doesn't matter what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes (or other private places, to clarify). As long as it's a safe environment and safe partner/s, it's not my business. Not judging anyone who does have a fetish, either, but I wanted to point out the flipside of the coin: that not having a fetish or a kink is suddenly something one should feel bad about. The terrible reality of being VANILLA. And it's being pushed quite aggressively now - one example would be what your friend experienced.

More mature and strong-willed girls/women are likely to refuse suggestions of sexual acts they are not comfortable with, but there are a lot of younger people who are still very much trying to figure out their sexuality and will "consent" to whatever uncomfortable(/degrading) act in order to please their partner. I'd wager that in most cases it's a guy asking for a sexual favour and the one seemingly agreeing to it is a girl. I don't have data to back this up though: this is based on my own experiences, and talking to other women.

These impressionable young girls are the ones I'm mainly worried about, and I'm afraid some of them will come out of these encounters with some sort of trauma; or a twisted idea of what is acceptable and where one needs to draw the line. Exploring sex as a teenager is already a minefield, and now with the constant push of porn it is likely much worse.

(Also - the way your friend handled the situation was perfection. Guys so often suggest anal sex and don't consider at all what they're even asking, until you reverse the question. Then it's all gasps and eews and oh-my-gods. Funny that...)

[–]TalkToTheVoid 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think I completely agree with this comment :)

Perhaps where I struggle is more with the issue of how to encourage knowing and establishing your boundaries (girls as a whole need this more), and respecting boundaries (boys as a whole need this more), while at the same time not making the topic of sex and kinks and fantasies some sort of taboo that can't be discussed. Like you said, it's a more nuanced discussion, and I feel a bit afraid and lost in discussing it. Thank you for bringing it up :)

Also, yes my friend is a pretty bad-ass, strong-willed person :) though she's definitely come to this point after going through other more vulnerable times.

Which reminds me of another issue that bothers me in this vanilla shaming tendency. I think it's likely to hurt those who're already traumatised, more.
I've a different friend who tends to be less strong-willed, has a difficult history with men, including some abuse, and has been affected by society's narrative of "unwed women are worthless". She was convinced by a guy she was seeing to have sex with him multiple times, without protection. She didn't want to, but she felt she had to please him, because he kept making it about how she's being difficult and it would be so much better without condoms. This man was able to push her to violate her own boundaries because she's already weak with holding them. This relationship and that she kept agreeing to doing it his way weighs on her now, several years later.

It's not the same thing, but I think similar mechanisms are at play.

A lot of people, who are already carrying hurts, will give in and do things they're not comfortable with, because the need to be accepted and to please is strong in them, and then the effects will weigh on them and further hurt them.

I think all of this is hard to say without making it like I'm saying all non-vanilla sex is bad.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Very much agree with this. Of course it is not only young girls who may be at risk here: anyone e.g. already traumatized, or who has a lesser understanding of one's boundaries is likely to participate in acts they actually are not comfortable with.

Reminds me of a woman I used to know, she was in her early twenties back then, and had little (if any) experience in sex prior to meeting her boyfriend. If I remember correctly this was her first sexual partner. What the guy used to tell her is that he couldn't come if she was wet: which meant that he'd start pounding her while she was still dry as the Sahara. Needless to say, it hurt - so she told me and another female friend. We were alarmed and told her this was not OK at all and it sounded more like rape than sex. But she only existed to please The Man, of course, so she'd "accept" this was the one and only way to have sex. The guy would also (so she told) laugh at the fact that she had a few odd hairs around her butthole - that was apparently unwomanly and also hilarious. She'd have to shave herself completely, I imagine while holding a microscope to her nether areas to ensure NO horrible stray hairs were visible! The dude himself looked like Oscar the Grouch, by the way...

This just to say that it indeed isn't just young girls that will fall prey to this. I knew this woman around 2012, since then things have gotten far worse - not just for her, but all females, it feels.

I think all of this is hard to say without making it like I'm saying all non-vanilla sex is bad.

I get what you mean. There are distinctions though. Someone smarter already posted about this, but for the life of me I cannot find that reply now. :D Anyway, I totally understand your point. One needn't be anti-fetishist to be against forcing and normalizing porn/kinks to young girls and boys.

[–]MonstrousRegiment 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I totally agree that shaming people for their sexual needs is not a good thing.

That said (you could see that coming, I'm sure) I have a comment based on my experience with a long-term partner who had a variety of fetishes. Sex with this person, for me, was off-putting and dehumanizing because his focus was not on communication with me, but on himself and the thing that turned him on.

On the other hand it's of course perfectly possible to have shitty, uncommunicative sex with a non-fetishist too!