How do you all feel about Blaire White?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

So ever since I hit peak trans which was back in 2017, I've looked more into Trans ideology as well as reflecting on my own life as a feminine presenting gay man and how I was almost lead to believe that I may be trans because of my lack of interest in conforming to masculinity and I of course discovered how the ideology does not stand at all when you start asking the serious questions like defining women and men wihtout using social stereotypes or how intersex conditions are not trans or even the whole brain sex argument which is just based in wishful thinking and science fiction and finally the typology of AGP & HSTS coined by sexologist Ray Blanchard.

Indeed it has been an interesting but mind blowing ride learning all this but something I have noticed is how people can be with YouTube Blaire White (And Rose of Dawn). It really does seem like hese two get a lot of praise because they speak out against crazy TRAs and I think it's cool that they do but at the same time, I don't give them a pass aka just because they're not horrible TRAs doesn't mean I think they are any more of a woman than the crazy TRA typs. I still think that they are delusional men who clearly think that presenting the way they do which in my mind is just a blow-up doll looking aesthetic makes them women and because he "passes" (which is debatable since I've seen his unfiltered pictures).

Anyway I notice that whenever I talk about the trans issue and how I don't believe in it as well as how it's affecting women's rights with other people, especially gay people, whenever they bring up Blaire White and I call him by male pronouns, they get really upset with me. Like for example I recently got into it with my gay brother who is a huge Blaire White fan and he brought him up during a conversation we were having and when I called him by male pronouns, he got super pissy with me and said that I'm being a "rude asshole" by calling him by male pronouns and when I challenged him asking him how Blaire is a woman, he of course said "Because she looks like one" to which I responded with "Woman is not a look, it's not an identity nor is it a skinsuit you can just put on and just become. Women are Adult Human females, that's just the way it is". He then retailiated and asked if I would be offended if people called me a "Crossdresser" just because of my nonconforming look to which I just said "No I wouldn't since crossdressers aren't really calling themselves women just because they wear feminine clothes". Needless to say he's been giving me the silent treatment ever since that but it really got me thinking because it's not just him who gets bent out of shape when I call Blaire by male pronouns, I've gotten it from other people as well, even some "feminists" and I'm just bewildered.

Like I dunno, am I really in the wrong for not calling Blaire by female pronouns just because he's not a screeching TRA? Because to me, I still don't think Blaire or any other trans-identified man like him is actually a woman and I don't play fast and loose when it comes to this kinda thing anymore. And I was curious what you all thought. Do you think Blaire and people like him should get a pass when it comes to this kind of discussion?

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[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

You are absolutely not in the wrong. It makes no freaking sense to be up in arms about how pronouns should be sex based and about how TIMs shouldn' t be recognized as women and then making exceptions just because they are less bad than the regular TRA.

Blair White is a man. I know nothing about this Rose of Dawn person, but if he is a TIM he too is a man, and calling them men and "he" is perfectly acceptable and, as far as I am concerned, prefered. People who yell at you about it are just a brand of TRA, and I have stopped caring about being considered a bad person by individuals who think that womanhood is about plastic surgery/ stereotypes/what "ejaculators" say it is a long time ago. You just have to decide if you care about it or not. I have abandoned any kind of fucks I could have given when it comes to language and hurting feelings, so if it' s rude to call a man a man, then I guess I am rude. I can live with that.

I am not a fan of White anyway: he might be a little more reasonable than regular TRAs, but he reached his opinions through conservatism. Not to mention, whenever someone posts a video or a comment by him and I decide to watch it, the overwhelming feeling I get from them is that he is attacking lunatic TRAs because he is afraid that once society peaks, people like him are going to have it harder. In short, he' s more interested in himself than he is in logic and reason, and it wold be ok if he (and his groupies) at least admitted it, but for some reasons he' s considered a champion for women, children, LGBs, when the truth is that he is using those categories because he can use them to rise himself.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What's more annoying with the situation I recently had was that my brother already knew where I stood on the whole trans ideology though I think he probably forgot because he thinks Blaire white is "true trans" and also because of Blaire White's infamous "debate" with Yaniv and he thinks that he was the one who exposed him and brought justice and when I told him that many women were talking about Yaniv way before Blaire had that livestream, he just disregarded what I said.

But anyway it's not like me calling him what he actually is is saying he's a bad person or something like that and that's what makes when people get pissy with me for not calling him by female pronouns bewildering. Oh and to answer your question, Rose of Dawn is another Trans-identified man who also speaks out against TRAs and I've seen people prop him on the pedestal they do for Blaire as well,

I have stopped caring about being considered a bad person by individuals who think that womanhood is about plastic surgery/ stereotypes/what "ejaculators" say it is a long time ago. You just have to decide if you care about it or not. I have abandoned any kind of fucks I could have given when it comes to language and hurting feelings, so if it' s rude to call a man a man, then I guess I am rude. I can live with that.

I really want to get to this place as well. To quote Mag, "I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar" and that definitely applies to this for sure. But I'm still kinda new to talking more openly about this and am not used to the backlash yet but I just gotta work on that. I guess my situation with my brother threw me off because I've already been dropped by many people who I thought were my friends when I came out in support for JK Rowling and Maya Forstater last year and while my social circle was always fairly small, it's almost nonexistent now and my brother was one of the few people I still talked with until this.

I am not a fan of White anyway: he might be a little more reasonable than regular TRAs, but he reached his opinions through conservatism. Not to mention, whenever someone posts a video or a comment by him and I decide to watch it, the overwhelming feeling I get from them is that he is attacking lunatic TRAs because he is afraid that once society peaks, people like him are going to have it harder. In short, he' s more interested in himself than he is in logic and reason, and it wold be ok if he (and his groupies) at least admitted it, but for some reasons he' s considered a champion for women, children, LGBs, when the truth is that he is using those categories because he can use them to rise himself.

EXACTLY. I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who sees what Blaire and the others like him are trying to pull by only going after crazy TRAs to make themselves look better and not be up for criticism. I mean isn't it ironic how they only ever really go after TRAs but when tit comes to "Terfs", they have nothing to say. I mean going back to Magdalen Berns, she was very vocal against trans ideology and you'd think that she would be up on the chopping block to get "put in her place" by these "logical" types like Blaire to prove that trans ideology is a solid ideology but they never did. And they can't say that it's because she wasn't well known because she certainly was.

In short I agree with everything you said. While he is reasonable compared to TRAs, it doesn't make him any more "valid" as a woman compared to the former and it's clear him and people like him are doing this as a diversion tactic to keep people from critiquing and questioning them.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But anyway it's not like me calling him what he actually is is saying he's a bad person or something

For many of these gender ideologues, being misgendered is indeed worse than anything. I don' t know if you were around when they claimed that misgendering is literal violence, but it wasn' t an exaggeration for them, they base their entire being on that identity, so not respecting it is like "erasing and dehumanizing them". Of course it' s complete bullshit, but when you are so far gone that you think a penis is a female organ, then the sky is your limit!!!!

You can explain to them that you just do it in a neutral way as much as you have breath in your body, but they will always read it as the worst insult possible. I learned how to not care. You say you aim at the same mentality, you will get there. It took me a while as well, but at one point it just clicked that the only way I could have been "acceptable" for these people was to live my live on a constant cognitive dissonance status, that I should have stopped using my brain and eyes, that I should have just become a validation station. It was unacceptable, so I just naturally started not caring.

I can' t help you on the losing friends/relatives department: I never went through it thankfully, and I am a loner to begin with, so I think that if I found myself in a position in which my friends drop me for stating that males are not women, then I guess I would shrug and move on with my life. I totally understand how it can be hard for more social people, but my standard position is that if people drop you for something like that, it' s better to lose them than keeping them and spending your life pretending that you believe in something that makes no sense whatsoever. And slowly dying inside because you' re not able to speak your mind.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I remember the whole "Misgendering is violence" thing but only because I remember seeing that one video of the same phrase by Riley Dennis years ago and I thought he was being ridiculous. I didn't think people were actually serious about it though until I joined Twitter and noticed people getting all ansy with the pronouns. So I tried to avoid them and that was back when I was still drinking the Trans Kool-Aid lol.

And I'm trying to get to a point where I don't care if people get all pissy with me for not using "preferred pronouns", especially since I'm going to be putting my foot in the ring of Gender Criitical type videos on my YouTube channel soon. So I'm trying. And see that's the thing, I never really had a social life to begin with. Like I don't have any friends offline that I hang out with and I haven't for a decade now, most of my socialzing is online. It's just that I did have a few good online friends and they ended up dumping me when I came out in support of JK Rowling/Maya and I was not expecting it to happen to 5 out of 6 of them who abandoned me lol.

But anyway thanks for the comment, I'm gonna try to work on this and get to a point of not caring becaus at the end of the day "misgendering" is not violence and there's nothing hateful about speaking the truth (aka people cannot change sex and woman & man are not identities).

[–]MezozoicGay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Misgendering is violence"

Always reminds me this picture: https://i.imgur.com/Ac89Ybp.png (and I am ukrainian myself, born in USSR, and my grandparents starved to death during holodomor, I wasn't a direct witness of that, so this picture is pretty close to me)

With "Transgender saying that misgendering is violence" and "Gay man who survived dozen physical assaults" instead.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol that's a funny meme but yeah exactly.

[–]lefterfield 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This whole idea that not using "preferred pronouns" is the height of rudeness is complete nonsense. It's been socially enforced for less than a decade, and it's just a rhetorical trick to make us believe there's some difference between sex and gender. Or that some people can change sex. There's no basis for it and you're not rude for sticking to the same linguistic and biological definitions that have existed for centuries. The ones telling you you are are just more easily brainwashed.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're probably right because when my brother kept asking me why I'm being such an "asshole" by calling Blaire "Him" and I kept answering rather bluntly, it's like he couldn't comprehend someone not complying and I think it's like that for the others who get bent out of shape. And besides, it's not like calling a man a man is derogatory.

[–]materialrealityplz 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not rude. It's rude of them to make it compelled speech and thought, to be forced to use their pronouns and consider them the sex they think of themselves as.

They call us 'cis' and 'terf' all day long and say those are terms that are just defining things like they are. Well, transwomen are males. We're defining it like is, like reality. Not even made it up bullshit like cis and terf. :3

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, transwomen are males. We're defining it like is, like reality. Not even made it up bullshit like cis and terf. :3

You are absolutely right on this. Hey if they can call us "Cis" and "Terf" to "define" us then they shouldn't be upset when we define them as well.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Kai, I agree with your analysis, sentiments and positions re pronouns for these guys 100%.

Blaire W and Rose of D seem like decent enough individuals, but I am deeply offended by the way they ape regressive sex stereotypes heavily influenced by porn and drag, by their insistence on horning in on women's spaces, by their attempts to expand the categories of "female" and "woman/women" to include men such as themselves, and by the arrogant way they presume they know anything about women's issues and sexual politics.

I think Blaire W and Rose of D are doing damage to women and girls and to feminine-presenting (gay?) males such as themselves. (I put the parenthetical "gay?" in there coz although Blaire has said he's a gay male engaged to another male, I've never seen Rose of D disclose anything about whom he dates/is attracted to.)

I think Blaire W, Rose of D and all the people they seek to influence would be better off if Blaire and Rose & all the others like them set their sights on widening the bandwith of what it means to be male the way men like Marilyn Peter Robinson (now Mr Marilyn) did in the 70s and 80s instead of trying to pass themselves off as some kind of women.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I am deeply offended by the way they ape regressive sex stereotypes heavily influenced by porn and drag, by their insistence on horning in on women's spaces, by their attempts to expand the categories of "female" and "woman/women" to include men such as themselves, and by the arrogant way they presume they know anything about women's issues and sexual politics.

This is exactly why I get turned off from them as well. They can say that they know they are males all day but it's clear what they're doing. They think that by not acting like a lunatic TRA and saying that they accept their "birth sex", that it'll make them come across as "True trans" and thus, make it more likely for people to think they are women for it. So they go after these TRA types to divert attention away from themselves to make themselves look better and it's why they get so bent out of shape sometimes when some people don't give them a pass and still address them as men.

I think Blaire W and Rose of D are doing damage to women and girls and to feminine-presenting (gay?) males such as themselves. (I put the parenthetical "gay?" in there coz although Blaire has said he's a gay male engaged to another male, I've never seen Rose of D disclose anything about whom he dates/is attracted to.)

I agree. When I used to look at some of the comments he had on his videos and I'd see things like "Wow, he looks better than me and I'm a "Cis" woman" or "How come he looks so pretty and I look like a potato" and other sentiments like that where the woman is putting herself down and I'm just sat there thinking that Blaire is using filters and makeup to look the way he does. But it's not even about looks really, I just get frustrated and saddened seeing these mostly young women putting themselves down all for some guy who's caked in makeup and using a camera filter to make himself look the way he does. It really does set a bad precedent.

And it's especially bad for feminine gay men because there are hardly any feminine, non conforming men in the public eye who can be seen as role models to younger feminine men who like to look feminine. Like the only one I can think of is Pete Burns from DOA and sure he had his moments but he stayed true to himself looking the way he liked while never calling himself Trans for it but he's no longer with us. So imagine little young feminine boys who are struggling in the world and the only people they see are trans-identified men like Blaire or all the others like him and think that the only way they can be themselves and find some acceptance (on the surface) is to become Trans. It's depressing.

As for Rose, I think he's gay or bisexual, I know he's attracted to men but not sure if he's attracted to women.

I think Blaire W, Rose of D and all the people they seek to influence would be better off if Blaire and Rose & all the others like them set their sights on widening the bandwith of what it means to be male the way men like Marilyn Peter Robinson (now Mr Marilyn) did in the 70s and 80s instead of trying to pass themselves off as some kind of women.

YES agree 100% on all this. That's why I try to stay true to myself. Like I mentioned before, Pete Burns was one of the only ones who stayed true to himself till death did him part, he's actually one of my heroes for that because in a world where so many feminine GNC men were starting to transition, it was nice to have an icon like him not give in to some delusional fantasy. As for Marilyn, he looked amazing but yeah I can't really include him in the same range of Pete since he did what Boy George did which was ditch their feminine look for a more masculine look and there's nothing wrong with that at all but I just thought that it was cool that Pete still stuck with a feminine nonconforming look in old age because there's this stereotype that feminine men have to give up their feminine appearance when they get older and that is what scares some feminine guys and make them think they need to transition in order to continue being their feminine selves.

But yeah if Blaire and Rose just did that, there would be no issue at all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Like I mentioned before, Pete Burns was one of the only ones who stayed true to himself till death did him part, he's actually one of my heroes for that because in a world where so many feminine GNC men were starting to transition, it was nice to have an icon like him not give in to some delusional fantasy. As for Marilyn, he looked amazing but yeah I can't really include him in the same range of Pete since he did what Boy George did which was ditch their feminine look for a more masculine look and there's nothing wrong with that at all but I just thought that it was cool that Pete still stuck with a feminine nonconforming look in old age

Kai, for the sake of your health and mental well-being, please reconsider regarding Pete Burns as an admirable role model and "hero."

Pete Burns was a self-described plastic surgery addict who basically committed slow-motion suicide by having by his own estimation more than 300 cosmetic surgeries and taking a lot of other unhealthy drugs and hormones. He was not a happy human being in any respect. He hated his appearance (he called himself a Frankenstein monster), turned himself into a spectacle, ruined his looks, and utterly destroyed his health, turning himself into an incredibly physically ill person. Even before he finally died of a massive heart failure, he had spent much of his time over several decades in hospital in near-death situations, and his myriad self-initiated health impairments made it impossible for him to live a normal, fulfilling life. More on Pete:

https://youtu.be/-8-IXBv3XwM

https://youtu.be/qIuokI647D8

I just thought that it was cool that Pete still stuck with a feminine nonconforming look in old age

Pete Burns was 57 when he died. 57 is middle-aged! Pete Burns never got the chance to make it to old age because of what he did to himself.

I think that the approach taken by Marilyn Peter Robinson and Boy George - and by the "gender bending" rockers of the early 70s who preceded them like David Bowie and Brian Eno - is much healthier than the road Pete Burns went down. Fact is, the hyper feminine look Pete Burns chased, and Mr Marilyn was able to achieve on occasion in the 70s and 80s, is very hard for guys to pull off at any age - but it's basically impossible once middle-age sets in. Coz like it or not, age brings dramatic physical changes to most/all of us in myriad ways.

I think men like Mr Marilyn, Bowie and Eno showed realism, maturity and good mental health when they stepped away from the dressing-up box and makeup tray, and decided to spend less time gazing in mirrors and instead focused their energies on other things.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I was aware that Pete Burns had a lot of issues that came about with his surgeries and trying to find impossible perfection. Maybe "hero" wasn't the right word but what I mean is that he still was dressing the way he liked without becoming masculine in appearance and still was calling himself a man. That is what I find admirable. Speaking of which

Fact is, the hyper feminine look Pete Burns chased, and Mr Marilyn was able to achieve on occasion in the 70s and 80s, is very hard for guys to pull off at any age - but it's basically impossible once middle-age sets in. Coz like it or not, age brings dramatic physical changes to most/all of us in myriad ways.

I'm aware that we all age and our looks change but I think it's just... Unfair for a man to have to give up a look he may like (feminine) just because he's getting older. Meanwhile no one really says anything about women looking feminine or masculine, young or old and it's both generally accepted (minus some minority flack). It's like guys don't get a choice and it's this expectation that can make some men think that maybe they are women because they don't give up their sense of style and want to continue looking the way they do. After all, how do we not know that an older man couldn't pull off a feminine look? I mean ignoring AGPs, there's no question that they look ridiculous but it's mostly because they're dressing for the fetish aspect, it's about getting off sexually. But what about an older man who simply just likes to dress feminine without it being a kink or fetish? I think that it's totally possible for an older to have a feminine look. Now obviously yes, some toning down on certain things would be sensible like not doing dramatic eye makeup and whatnot but I am still more than sure that it can be done and it can look fine.

I mean take Miranda Yardley for example, I can't find how old he is but he's definitely of older age, has to be in his early 40s at least and I dunno about you but I think he's carrying the feminine look well enough for himself. Or that guy "HeyThisIsRya" on his channel. Yes unfortunately he's one o"those" people who thinks he's a form of woman if I'm not mistaken but looks wise, he looks fine and if he was not calling himself a "transwoman" but just a man, KI think he'd be another good example of aging femininity in men. The point I'm trying to make is that it's totally possible for feminine men to have a mature feminine look.

I don't begrudge Marilyn and Boy George for looking more masculine nowadays, everyone's sense of style is different. But with Pete burns, even though plastic surgery destroyed his life, I still think it was kinda cool that he stuck with his feminine look for as long as he did instead of joining the trans train. Does that at least make sense?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm now a bit confused about what we mean by "femininity" LOL.

We started out talking about Blaire White - who is super "feminine" in a stereotypical Barbie doll way that I consider to be an offensive, fake-looking caricature of women that has been shaped mostly by porn & drag - and has little to do with what most of us women actually look and behave like, and is incredibly ageist to boot. But such a narrow, artificial, cartoonish look and affect are what most TIMs nowadays go for, like Gigi Gorgeous, Munroe Bergdorf, Paris Lees, and a zillion more.

Then we went to Pete Burns, who initially in his career rocked a look that was goth and androgynous rather than feminine, as was quite common back then. Only later did PB start trying to turn himself into a totally artificial-looking caricature of "femininity" - sort of a hybrid of Jessica Rabbit, a kewpie doll, Betty Boop, a blow-up doll and modern-day sex bot. Burns seemed to be pursuing a look shaped as much by sci fi as by porn & drag. But which, again, strikes me as having little or nothing to do with most RL female people.

In fact, the version of "femininity" Burns ended up trying to exemplify seems most closely aligned with the extreme artifice of fellow plastic surgery addict Rodrigo Alves - the guy who spent hundreds of thousands to turn himself into a "human Ken doll" and then when he reached the end of that road he suddenly had an epiphany that he's really a woman (LOL) then embarked on a new surgical journey to remake himself into a super sexpot "transgender woman":

https://youtu.be/cwsehHUwp1M

As for Miranda Yardley (age 53 BTW), I don't see his style as anything like what Blaire W and most TIMs are going for at all. Nor do I see it as similar to what Pete B was aiming for when he started trying to ape some weird version of a woman.

Yardley rocks a look that, to my view, is eccentric and androgynous - largely goth (black clothing, black lipstick, nails & black-ringed eyes) with a large dollop of hippie thrown in (the floppy hat, the scraggly hair, the fringed leather jacket). But there's nothing about Yardley's style or affect I'd call "feminine." Especially compared to the "femininity" portrayed by Blaire White & the other TIMs I've mentioned. Yardley's style isn't particularly "masculine" either. It's neither here nor there, and would not have stood out as particularly noteworthy in the 1970s, 80s or 90s.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764763/Britains-transgender-hate-crime-trial-halted-one-day.html

https://youtu.be/chqW9Bv_AP4

Yardley's look is actually very much in line with Pete Burns' original look and the look Robert Smith of The Cure has rocked for decades. Back in the day this wasn't the norm for males, but it wasn't all that uncommon, either. In the 70s and 80s, I dated several guys who looked like that.

https://youtu.be/houFuiYrEi0

https://youtu.be/Nm866GeIKiU

In turn, to my eye the looks rocked by both Yardley and Smith seem quite similar to Noel Fielding of "The Mighty Boosh" fame.

https://youtu.be/8a8GlAf6Gv8

Fielding doing a send-up of Kate Bush:

https://youtu.be/du4uH1fC9B8

BTW, to Marilyn Peter Robinson's credit, back in the 1970s & 80s, he actually dressed and "presented" in highly diverse ways. Sometimes he looked like a glamorous "feminine" sexpot - tight pencil skirt, hose, high heels, feminizing makeup, opera gloves, female hairstyle, flowers in his hair... But just as often - actually more often - he dressed and "presented" as a beautiful sexy man with long hair and no aping of femaleness or "femininity." IIRC, he was seen as incredibly attractive by both males & females.

Marilyn 1983: https://youtu.be/CfH2pCanQOw

Marilyn 1984: https://youtu.be/Wy6flAFWZmc

Marilyn 1985: https://youtu.be/ear2Nb4dVb0

I dunno exactly what year this is from in the early-mid 80s, but it gives a good view of all the different looks Marilyn rocked in his heyday: https://youtu.be/uxENNL0OT_I

BTW, to get a sense of how much male people naturally change with age when they don't have plastic surgery, check out these vids of Roxy Music doing "Re-make, Re-model" in 1972 and 2001, 30 years apart (the changes in the great drummer Paul Thompson and sax player Andy Mackay are particularly stark):

https://youtu.be/PZctJN0-J_I

https://youtu.be/l5Z__eBzIhA

Also note all the physical differences between the Roxy guys doing "Virginia Plain" in 1972 and nearly 40 decades later in 2010:

https://youtu.be/BonWfTW7jKc https://youtu.be/UMQka-RBSuc

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hm okay this all made more sense and I can see that perhaps my use of "feminine" was a bit confusing. Let me just say this first. Fashion sense like Blaire white or Drag Queen looking looks, I don't really consider that "Feminine", I definitely think it's a caricature of femininity that is exactly what you said, fueled by porn and exaggeration (drag queens). So when I say feminine, I'm not saying that Blaire and other Trans-identified men like him are the pinnacle of femininity because that is not femininity, that's just... Well I don't know what to call it but "Femininie" is not what comes to mind. I can't believe I'm gonna be saying this but I think a better idea of a feminine look done by a well known man is Contrapoints. Now in saying that, I know that he's an AGP and it does show in his videos but I'll just reference two looks he's done.

These looks to me, they are more in line with "feminine" in my opinion. To me feminine is sensual & soft, not provocative and sexually titillating. Again I know it may not be a perfect example but you have to admit that a style like what I showed with Contrapoint's looks in those pictures is nothing really like Blaire White's and that's more or less the angle I'm trying to come from. So long story short, no I don't think plumped up lips, exposed cleavage, stripper-looking outfits, etc are "feminine".

So back on Pete Burns, agian okay. Fair poiint. You're right that in the 80s he seemed to mix things and he had a very androgynous look at the time (which I really like I'll add) but it's clear that he was chasing a very caricature look of a woman that seemed shaped by porn, mostly in the face but see, I read that the reason why he kept getting surgeries was to fix his face after a plastic surgery went wrong with his lips. So I assumed the surgeries he was getting in his later years was just to treat his lips. But yeah he ended up looking more Drag queen then feminine, at least facially so I'll give you this. Though I honestly feel had he not messed up his face but still dressed in a non-masculine way, he could've been the male version of Cher (yeah I'm aware she's no stranger to plastic surgery neither but I mean more of her eccentric stage show attire).

  • Rodrigo Alves ~ Holy crap I remember this guy though I had no idea he transed out. He looks horrible (sorry but ye-gawds...) Yeah definitely not "femininine", that's just... Cartoon caricature. Looks like he followed in Pete Burns footsteps. Both men were reaosnably handsome before ruining their faces with over the top surgery... Just no...

  • Miranda Yardley ~ Yeah I do see what you mean about the Dark alternative look he has but I was referencing more of how he looked here and here. To me that's a feminine look and he doesn't look ridiculous at all, at least not to me. He looks very sensual. And yes I'm aware that a look like Miranda's wouldn't stand out in the 70s, 80s, and 90s but we're in 2020 now and fashion perception for men has changed in the last 15 years. In the generation I am in with male fashion, it's all about "swag" and fade cut hairstyles with facial hair so people like Miranda do stand out big time.

Since you brought him up, I always considered Robert Smith more androgynous. He mixed both masculine and feminine together. I'd call it "soft masculine" but I do get what you mean, it's not an outright feminine look. I'm actually into the Goth subculture and have been for a long time now and I think someone who would stretch more into what I would call "feminine" is the late Rozz Williams There aren't many pictures of him but it's clear that he liked to go for a more feminine look.

And I can see what you mean with Fielding, especially in that Kate Bush dance cover which I would argue is feminine appearance. And fair enough on Marilyn, it seemed he mostly shot for androgynous than full on feminine.

And I watched the Roxy Music comparisons. I'm still not entirely convinced. Yes they do look different 30 years later but I still think that it's possible for an older man to have a feminine look. It jsut REALLY comes down to carefully styling yourself. Like I said with Miranda Yardley, okay maybe he's not in his 60s-70s yet but seeing how he does some of his looks now, I think it's still a good example of how you can alter and experiment with a GNC look in odler age. Things like longer hair (even if it's a wig), makeup, certainl clothing that fits and works for your build, etc. The only thing the older man would need to realzie is that he's not gonna look like a young woman but frankly fashion should be about what you like. In short, yes I can accept that these men in Roxy Music represent how the average man can age but I'm still positive that a feminine look without crazy surgery can still be achievable.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Contrapoints, LOL. Ugh. I find him to be an offensive caricature and absolutely odious misogynist to the nth power.

But each to his or her own. You do you, I'll do me.

I agree that Miranda Yardley looks more "feminine" in those pics you provided. But I think they are posed, and probably highly filtered. That's not what MY looks like in the flesh in everyday situations.

Something I've held back from mentioning to you before is this: after a certain age the "feminine" look so many young men seem to be after and want to emulate is hard even for once-beautiful RL women to achieve unless lots of surgeries, cosmetic procedures and intense dieting, exercising and grooming regimes are involved.

Some personal perspective: Although I was never especially "feminine" in my manner, grooming, personal style or personality traits, I was fortunate to have spent most of my life with a body and face that were widely considered to be beautiful, striking and quite sexually attractive. Without any interventions, I naturally remained quite good-looking and sexually attractive until my mid 50s. But since then, my looks have gone way downhill - and it's a steep downhill too, LOL. Now I'm an old crone whose looks are light years from what they once were. I might as well be a different species.

My point is: if you make looking and being "feminine" and attractive a major life goal, you're setting yourself up for failure. No matter which sex you are.

BTW, my own mother was a fiercely intelligent woman with a strong personality who was also extremely beautiful, enough so that she had a successful career as a professional fashion and "glamour" model. My dad was quite good-looking too. But they always cautioned me (and my siblings) not to tie my self-worth up with my looks, and steered me instead towards focusing on, and developing, my mind, talents, relationships and politics. I think those are good life lessons. I imagine the intellectual curiosity, interest in the give-and-take of ideas, civility, geniality and genuineness that I've seen you display in our interactions on this sub are probably amongst your greatest assets, Kai - and they are probably what make you seem attractive, lovable and sexy in other people's eyes far more than your looks and "femininity."

I've enjoyed our exchanges, Kai. I wish I could take you in a time machine back to the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. But since I can't do that, I simply send you my best.

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would be better if they were like old ContraPoints, when ContraP was just a non-conforming man (and then he deleted all his videos on channel and started new career, now as a transwoman). I know that many GC were supporting ContraP prior to transition and were supporting his breaking of stereotypes. But instead of breaking them, he was broken himself and complied to them, and instead of changing society views on GNC he changing himself in process to become non-GNC.

[–]materialrealityplz 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Don't like Blaire. He made himself look like a woman porn star. He can do what he wants with his body, sure. I don't have to like it.

I want to keep my dignity intact and use male pronouns for him. Maybe it's not 'nice', but we're not the 'nice' kind of feminists. :P

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep he clearly is going for that porn blow-up doll look (having that dead eye, slightly open mouth expression in most of his thumbnails...) and if he likes it, that's fine but that doesn't make him a woman.

[–]our_team_is_winning 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I always call Blaire "he." His nose job gives him that nose that I wish I had. My natural woman nose is a big beak. His implants are bigger (and more on display) than my natural woman breasts too. I'm sure he would take one look at me and conclude he "does woman" far better. And he just hit one million subscribers! Apparently he wants to have his dick lopped off. The only thing that doesn't creep me out is that he's a gay man and not James Pritzker or "Rachel" Levine or Morgane Oger -- Blaire doesn't give off the hulking serial killer vibe. Rose of Dawn seems like a nice person, like a very eccentric aunt-uncle, maybe like an uncle whose dear wife died and he started putting on her clothes to pretend she was still with him. Is Rose gay? Blaire I guess falls under HSTS, so he doesn't seem predatory to me. But if he wanted to play on the women's sports team, NO!

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Haha this was an interesting read but yeah consideirng how Blaire can sometimes talk down on women (on Twitter mind you) and call them ugly, I'm sure he would think he's "doing womanhood better". But yeah I'm sorry but not being a TRA is the bare minimum one can do but for the most part, he's no where near as threatening as AGPs. HSTS tend to not be, at the most they just think they make better women than actual women because they make themselves look super feminine in that pronographic way (big chest implants, big lips, heavy eye makeup, scantily clad clothing, etc.)

I guess the reason why Blaire doesn't get a pass to me is because I'm a feminine gay man myself and if I were drinking the Kool Aid, I would've thought I was trans as well but I thankfully didn't. And plus I used to watch Blaire's content on the regular back then and would attend his livestreams. In one of them he got intoxicated and spileld the beans of his past where he admitted that he his father and grandfather never accepted him as a teenager (he didn't explain why but if you saw his pictures of what he looked like in high school, it'd pretty obvious) and how they still were like that when he "transitioned". He also said that he was not allowed to go to family gatherings for the holidays because they didn't want him there (Again put two and two together). And then when I did some digging and came across Blaire's old YouTube channel, he made a video where he was talking about how hard it was to find a relationship as a feminine gay man which is not wrong, it's really hard for sure but seeing all this and putting it together like a puzzle, it was clear that the reason Blaire "transitioned" was because he was having a hard life living as a feminine gay man and thought that if he became a woman, it would make life easy for him. And on that level I can sympathize with him but just because he had a hard life doesn't make him any more of a real woman.

As for Rose of Dawn, I think he is also Gay. He did a livestream with Blaire awhile back and they were talking about the subject of dating with men so I assume that Rose is gay himself.

[–]assignedcopatbirth 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Blaire is a "not like other girls" trans woman, craving mainstream acceptance to a dysfunctional degree. It makes Blaire a useful ally in some cases, but generally unreliable - for example in a recent video there was a TiM bodybuilder in his thumbnail about the unfairness of trans athletes, even though that TiM had never competed as a woman and has been very open about not competing as a woman because it would be unfair. So Blaire would rather get anti-trans clicks than tell the truth.

I agree with Blaire about a lot of things, but stunts like that (and the general pro-Trump, pro-gun, living blow-up doll aesthetics vibe) make me wary of being an outright supporter.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yes, I heard about that but this isn't the first time Blaire has pulled stunts like that, he did that A LOT back when he did political videos. One of the infamous ones was when he claimed that a woman was claiming her child was trans for attention and praise even though the woman was a conservative and said that she didn't know what transgenderism was and was only trying to support her child but because of Blaire's lie, that woman received a lot of hate and negative attention and he (Blaire) never apologized for that mess up. And there were other things as well though that one was the worst one from back then. So when I heard that Blaire was lying about this athlete, I was not surprised.

Blaire to me is just a self-obsessed, money hungry attention seeker. And of course you're more likely to agree with him on some things since he usually only goes after crazy TRA types when it comes to the trans debate but he never goes after well adjusted Gender Critical people because he knows if he did that, it could potentially peak trans people. Like for example did you know that he was supposed to have a debate with Magdalen Berns back in early 2019 (it was before Magdalen's cancer worsened) but he kept pulling out at the last minute until finally Mag's cancer got worse and she was put in the hospital, he then came up with the excuse of not wanting to debate someone who has brain cancer or something like that. It was pretty obvious that he was afraid to debate her because she's not a crazy, lunatic feminist that people on his side tend to think of when they hear the word "Feminist".

And then he's said some pretty messed up things to some women like how he told this one woman who's sister was murdered by her boyfriend and she was venting but said that she hated men, Blaire made a tweet saying that she needed to get dick or when Demi Lovato had her overdoze, he said something like "If Demi Lovata can overdose and live, can I have a cheat meal and eat pizza" (or something like that). The thing with Blaire is that when he says something messed up or stupid, he'll delete it fast if people start calling him out in it.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Blaire White is a man, he has XY chromosomes. Changing his name and appearances with plastic surgery won't change it.

So, if a 60 year old says they are 20 years old, does that mean he is 20? Nope, because you can't change when you are born like you can't change what sex you were born.

I used to like Blaire White but...He just seems like a token trans person to be honest. He gets brownie points for being right leaning and more "feminine" looking (which is debatable, like you said, the unfiltered photos look more masculine) than most trans with big ass plastic boobs. He also acts really...unnatural playing with his hair nonstop and and pursing his lips like a sex doll...it's...strange...

Ask your brother this:

If you'd be considered 60 years old for having an "old spirit", dressing like an old person, acting like an old person, and even wearing makeup/masks that make you look like you just left the nursing home and going for a stroll.

I think your brother may peak when things start to affect him VERY directly, like turning down a TIF for a date because she's pre-op and getting called transphobic.

((Not trying to bash your bro---he might just needs a push and a shove in the right direction)).

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Exactly. And yes Blaire is definitely a token and he relishes in that fact. Because so many people kiss his ass and think he's sane which duh, of course they would when he constantly makes videos on crazy TRAs when it comes to the topic of transness but put him against a sane GC person and we'd see how the roles would reverse. It's times like this where I wish he didn't chicken out and debated against Magdalen Berns like they were originally supposed to until Blaire ducked out at the last minute for obvious reason. And yeah he really just operates on super unnatural and try hard quirks (playing with hair, the dead eyed pursed lips expression, etc.). He's a caricature really, just not as ridiculous as the ones with giant plastic boobsl ike you said.

As for my brother, I don't think he'll have a moment of turning down a trans-identified female since he's already in a relaitonship with a man but the thing with him is that whenever he tries to challenge me on these views, when I give him my reasoning, it goes in one ear and out the other. He says that I'm being ridiculous and paranoid with my views, that I'm only focusing on a minority and that I'm taking this all too seriously. And then when I try to show evidence of what I'm talking about, he doesn't even bother to look into it saying that he's not going to do that. So I'm at a loss when it comes to dealing with him because he's so dismissive of anything I say when it comes to trans stuff. He thinks that we should just live and let live and let them be women if they try to "look" like them. And I suspect it's because he's not GNC himself to see just how ridiculous it all is the way I can see it as a GNC gay man.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I thought I was going crazy when fellow gender critical persons started calling Blaire White a "she/her" when he's a HE. I see comments getting mad about others correcting trans pronouns (i.e. someone calls a trans identified male a SHE but others correct that and say HE, rightful so on this GC subsaidit... Doesn't matter if that trans person "passes")

Whaaaaat?!? I didn't know Magdalen Burns was going to debate Blaire!! Too bad she passed away last year in September...I loved listening to her...Isn't YouTube demonotizing videos like hers and/or removing that content from YouTube? I am not too sure about YouTube politics and what goes on tbh...

Ah...sorry to hear that about your brother..Was hoping an analogy might work for him? Maybe one of these days he will see what's the TRAs really are, or at least if he doesn't if he could be respectful to your views since he is giving you silent treatment right now...hopefully he cools off...I know it took me awhile to peak, but I was a teen/young adult at that time...

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I thought I was going crazy when fellow gender critical persons started calling Blaire White a "she/her" when he's a HE. I see comments getting mad about others correcting trans pronouns (i.e. someone calls a trans identified male a SHE but others correct that and say HE, rightful so on this GC subsaidit... Doesn't matter if that trans person "passes")

Exactly. IF you're gonna be GC, you be GC and hold all Trans-identified men and Trans-identified women to the same standard. You don't give a pass and play fast and loose just because someone "passes" (which mmhmm, sure passing - Blaire without the camera filter on. You hold everyone to the same standard. And fine, I can understand if it's someone close to you, personally I would just call them "they/them/their" or try not to even bring up pronouns around them but I'm not gonna be insulting my own intelligence speaking for myself.

Whaaaaat?!? I didn't know Magdalen Burns was going to debate Blaire!! Too bad she passed away last year in September...I loved listening to her...Isn't YouTube demonotizing videos like hers and/or removing that content from YouTube? I am not too sure about YouTube politics and what goes on tbh...

Yep they were originally supposed to have a debate back in early 2019 discussed via twitter. This was before Magdalen's cancer returned and took a turn for the worst so she was in decent enough health to have a debate. But from what I heard, he kept coming up with excuses for the debate and kept moving the date until unfortunately Magdalen's cancer worsened and she was moved to a hospital and then hospice. But get this, As soon as she was hospitalized, Blaire comes out making a tweet saying that he didn't feel it was right to be debate someone who has brain cancer. Fucking really? She was giving him plenty of opportunity to debate with her prior and he kept ducking out. See, it's so obvious Blaire was pissing his pants to actually debating her because he knew that she was not the crazy, raving, lunatic feminist image that his audience tend to have when they hear the word "Feminist" and that there was a good chance that she would expose how even his ideology for why he's trans doesn't hold up. In short, it was obvious that Mag would've peaked trans a good amount of his audience and he didn't want to risk that.

Ah...sorry to hear that about your brother..Was hoping an analogy might work for him? Maybe one of these days he will see what's the TRAs really are, or at least if he doesn't if he could be respectful to your views since he is giving you silent treatment right now...hopefully he cools off...I know it took me awhile to peak, but I was a teen/young adult at that time...

Well since he never truly listens to what I have to say in person and cuts me off before I can finish my point, I think the only way he will consider listening is when I make my videos on this topic which I will be doing soon. I know he watches my YouTube videos and I'm sure if he watches these upcoming ones I have planned and he sees how I include source images in them, it' might convey that I'm very serious on this issue while exposing why the trans ideology doesn't stand and that even HSTS like Blaire White whom he's so sure is "true trans" is not exempt from this ridiculous concept. And if not then I'm preparing for him to cut me out of his life because I'm an awful "transphobe".

And yeah see we're both gonna be in our 30s next year so we're not exactly fresh out of high school or in our early young adult years lol.

[–]ShieldMaiden 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Blair is 100% a man. He puts down other women and other TiMs because ehe thinks they don't look as good as him, he photoshops to hell and back and still doesn't "pass" (no men pass, it's not a thing), he's a blatant misogynist, and he's a plastic surgery addict like Gigi Gorgeous (not trying to rip on him for this, but it shows he's not mentally stable imo). His idea of how a woman moves and talks and acts are all lifted from sassy gay sitcom characters from the 90s, basically he is a poor caricature of a woman, essentially a permanent drag queen, nothing more. He doesn't belong in female-only spaces, idgaf about that video he made where he said he couldn't really use men's rooms. He's still a man, he's got a dick and a Y chromosome, he belongs in the men's room of the gender neutral bathroom if there is one. Not the women's room.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you. Someone who can see through his nonsense. He may not be an annoying TRA but he's almost as obnoxious because the only reason he does what he does is to divert attention away from his own ridiculous caricature acting as a "woman" when it's not natural and he's acting like the sassy gay man. I mean why else has not even attempted to debate or do a commentary video on a Gender critical video? He only goes after crazy TRAs since it's so easy to look sane but put him up against a Gender Critical person who is level-headed and not a dumpster fire like his fans believe "Terfs" to be and see how he'd flop.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, and Blaire has never been willing to debate a RL woman who is "of a certain age" and doesn't buy into all his faux femininity such as moi.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I've noticed this when I look back at his "debates". It's pretty clear he knows he'd lose and look like a joke to his audience if he did.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

I don't know that much about Blaire White, but I have watched a few of her videos. I'm glad that she's strong in her stance against transitioning children. She's also pretty right wing and I'm sure has political views I don't agree with, but she seems level-headed on trans issues. I don't have any problem in general using preferred pronouns for trans people acting in good faith.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Hm I see. I assume you might be new to Blaire, I used to watch him back in 2015-2017 and believe me there were all kinds of red flags about him. Not like serial killer vibes or anything like that but just certain things that made it obvious why he is the way he is.

  • Hard Family Life (Rejected from father & grandfather for being both a feminine nonconforming looking boy and being gay on top of it)
  • Being forbidden to go to big family events
  • Harsh Dating life (facing much rejection from other gay men for being feminine and nonconforming in appearance)
  • Attracting closeted guys (usually bisexual guys in the closet about their same sex attraction and preferring to having relationships with women while only having sex with men)

It's just obvious that he transitioned because he felt he'd get more acceptance as a transwoman but as a feminine GNC man myself who can sympatheize with him because I've gone through and continue to go through similar hardships, "Transing" out is not the answer and he doesn't get a pass from me feminine gay man to feminine gay man. To me, "Transing" out is just running away. I will give him this, it's cool that he's not a loud annoying TRA type but I mean, of course he isn't. HSTS (Homosexual Transsexual) are usually not TRAs because they're not attracted to women unlike AGPs (Autogynephiles) who are usually TRAs as well. *

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's fair. I'm sure society plays a large part in extremely GNC males deciding to transition. Females, too, but there's more space in society for a butch-looking woman to live that way 24/7. Whereas there's almost no space for men who are very feminine. I suppose repeated harassment, rejection, and abuse can also lead to body dysphoria. I do think it's possible that some people are born with a tendency towards physical dysphoria, but it seems to me like an unaccepting culture is a trigger for it as well.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yep exactly. And I'm just saying that life for a feminine GNC man can be very difficult but I'm sorry, "Transing" out is not the answer to this. We feminine GNC men need to do what the masculine butch-looking women did. Stand their grown and demand acceptance or at least tolerance. Transing out is not gonna solve the problem and all you're doing aside from lying to yourself is pumping your body with health-weakening drugs and having dangerous surgeries that are irreversible.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes! Kai, I hope you write a book and make videos expressing your views. Coz your way is the true way forward.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure about that but I'd like to open the door to other people to hopefully join in on the conversation

[–]questioningtw 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I have a different view then most here: I absolutely do think gender dysphoria is a very real thing and if an adult wants to transition they should be able to do so. I have zero problem calling actual trans people their preferred pro noun, because well if they are trans and that means they have transitioned. I like that both of these people are against self id and children transitioning. Another one i like is Kalven Garrarah.

[–]lefterfield 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I suspect most here agree that gender dysphoria is real, and I'm guessing that half to more than half agree that if an adult wants to transition they should be able to. That doesn't mean anyone should also agree that pronouns are "gender based"(which doesn't exist) as opposed to "sex based"(which does).

Edit: Correction, gender dysphoria should really be called sex dysphoria, that is a real phenomenon.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This. A lot of us do know that Gender/Sex Dypshoria is a real thing and we don't care if adults "Transition" but that said, that doesn't mean we think that these people are actually the opposite sex and are still what they (Transwomen = Men, Transmen = Women).

And heck even the dysphoria, I've come to find that a lot of the time it's coming from past traumas of when they broke a gender norm and got reprimanded for it or received negative attention/response/reaction from or seeing how socially constructed gender roles can play on people like how girls are allowed to something while boys are allowed to do another thing. And then of course other things like childhood trauma (especially molestation) or rape or self-internalized misogyny or self-internalized homophobia.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah I used to feel that way as well. Where if an adult wanted to transition than I had no problem with it and would call them by "preferred pronouns" but when I did some more digging into this whole trans stuff and discovered some rather harsh truths, my view changed. Heck even Blaire is a part of this as well and as a gender nonconforming gay man myself, I just had to be brutally honest.

So what do I mean by that? Well okay let's take Blaire for example. So i don't know if you were around watching Blaire White's channel in the early days when he was doing political commentary from 2015 to 2017 but back then I was a big fan of his channel and would tune into every video and livestream he did. But I remember in one livestream, he was drinking and got a little intoxicated and started giving out about his life. He said that his father and grandfather never accepted him for "who he was" growing up and how he was the black sheep of his family. Now at the time, I didn't know what he meant until I came across an old YT channel that Blaire was actually a part of back when I think he was like 18 but anyway, seeing how he looked back then, there was no question he looked quite effeminate and nonconforming in appearance and then I saw a few of his high school pictures and I pretty much put it together and saw what he meant by not getting acceptance from his father and grandfather. It was clearly because he looked very feminine and gender nonconforming and I'm sure that him being gay only made it even worse to them so much so that they wanted nothing to do with him. And then I come across a video he did on that collaboration channel and he was talking about relationships and how difficult it was to date as a gay feminine man (which is true, in the gay dating world dating as a feminine guy is quite hard).

So putting it together, you're facing rejection from your family for being a feminine presenting gay man + dealing with how society can treat feminine presenting men + having a terrible dating life experience where you're being rejected for being feminine

It all made sense that he clearly thought that if he "became a woman", he'd gain more acceptance and I suppose he did to an extent but then in another livestream, he shared that he was banned from going to family gatherings with the extended family because they didn't want him there, that his father still didn't accept him, and how even dating was going rough because he was only attracting "Chasers" and the last boyfriend he had (before he got with Joey) was so ashamed to be seen with him where he literally made him hide in his closet when his parents came to visit him at his college dorm.

So honestly as a GNC feminine gay man myself, I can sympathize to a degree with Blaire. It's clear he was having a hard time being a feminine gay man, I get his struggles because I've had a similar experience but that being said, that doesn't make me think he is trans. I think this whole "Gender Dysphoria" is real BUT it's coming from past trauma from breaking gender norms and facing negative responses/reactions for it. I'm actually doing a video on this on my channel sometime later and I'll explain more there because I don't want to give a huge wall of text like I'm already on the verge of doing LOL But long story short, Gender Dypshoria clearly comes from past trauma, especially if it happened in your formulate years. I mean hell even with Kalvin Garrah, it's obvious what happened with her. Did you see how angry and unhinged she got when Ella Androphobia on YT made a commentary on one of her videos? To the point where she was saying that Ella should get her children taken away from her all because she didn't like that Ella was making an analysis video on the past event that happened to her (Kalvin) as a child and how it could've played into her Gender Dysphoria?

[–]questioningtw 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn't know that at all about Blaire and Kalvin and must confess I only watched a few of their videos. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some gender dysphoria had to do with being gnc. I have even seen on askfeminism people asking that question; and it bothers me when they say just identify as trans already!

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For Blaire white, unfortunately I cannot link anything to his video, well livestream where he was giving out about his personal life because he deleted them and no one has archived it and I think it's gone for good because like I mentioned before, he did this back in 2015 when he was still fairly new to YouTube and the early days of his streaming. With Kalvin Garrah, this video did a commentary on Kalvin getting irrationally upset when Elle did her commentary on her video There are two parts.

And yeah being GNC in a society where most people conform and will even harass and mock people who are GNC (speaking from experience as a GNC male), it can really tear down a person and make them more likely to believe in the trans narrative.

[–]owmygenderfeels 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Blaire is a man, not a "she/her", and a sexist MRA, anyway. He's not worth listening to and I'm certainly sick of seeing "GC feminists" promoting him, which you see every now and again. Often with female pronouns. It's bullshit; pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour or for "passing". Even with the "nice" TIMs (so... not Blaire White) who try to side with GC feminists, I will never trust them. I appreciate any trans people pushing back against the biggest crazies, self-ID, indoctrination of children, etc. but TIMs are still using womanhood as a costume instead of just saying they're gender nonconforming men, and I cannot shake the suspicion that acceptance of their "womanhood" by "TERFs" is the ultimate validation for them. And some women still can't shake their female socialisation and their need to placate and encourage men.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right. I just get really aggravated when I see some GC feminists acting like Blaire is the voice of reason just because he's not a TRA. They can't see that he doesn't really care about women and is just out there to feed his own ego and act like "Not like the other trans" just because he "passes" (debatable) and goes after crazy TRA types. I said it before and I'll keep saying it. If he actually didn't wuss out and debated with Magdalen Berns like they were supposed to until he chickened out at the last minute and came up with a poor ass excuse, Blaire would've easily looked like Contrapoints did when he debated him in his debate.

And exactly. I'm sorry but you can't be GC and Trans, it's a total contradiction since GC is set out to disprove and dismantle Trans ideology for the fraudulent concept that it is. Because like you said, these "nice" and GC-leaning Trans-identified men still belief that womanhood is a costume instead of speaking the truth which is them being GNC men but they think that if they play nice with GC femininsts, it'll earn them brownie points and make them appear as "true trans" when their reasoning for this is just as ridiculous as the AGPs/TRA types and it's why some of them can get bent out of shape when they still get called by male pronouns.

[–]MadLass 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Im a bit late to this discussion but for me personally I dont mind Blaire at all and I actually enjoy her videos. We scream all the time about trans needing to police their own especially on the "this never happens" but really it does too often. I dont mind using her preferred pronouns because shes never once claimed shes not biologically male she freely admits it all the time. I dont mind meeting in the middle a bit.

[–]TalkToTheVoid 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think you're (or anyone is) rude or wrong or mean in calling trans people by the pronouns matching their actual sex.

Personally, I haven't known too many trans people in real life, but I have tried to call them by the pronouns they prefer. I have done it to be polite, and I've found that I struggle to stop being polite in this way, so for now I'll likely continue. Mostly because I feel distress when I am not, and sometimes because I either like or am indifferent to the trans person involved and I want to be accommodating to them. I don't see trans women as women or trans men as men at all though. Never have.

Over the last few months, I've realized that much like "TWAW", this "must use preferred pronouns" decree isn't about just politeness. It literally is a form of controlling someone's feelings. We make word associations in our heads and "she/her" and "he/his/him" are linked to different ideas and thoughts and feelings that come up in us when we use them. Using the opposite pronoun from someone's sex can cause cognitive dissonance. It can alter perceptions. It can plain old confuse us or cause us distress when we use the "wrong" pronoun. All of which is a burden, and not one trans people have a right to demand anyone carries for them.

I do think it's easier to use someone's preferred pronouns when they pass well. They don't deserve it more or anything just because they're able to play up to stereotypes, but I think it makes the burden on the other person lesser.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Personally, I haven't known too many trans people in real life, but I have tried to call them by the pronouns they prefer. I have done it to be polite, and I've found that I struggle to stop being polite in this way, so for now I'll likely continue. Mostly because I feel distress when I am not, and sometimes because I either like or am indifferent to the trans person involved and I want to be accommodating to them. I don't see trans women as women or trans men as men at all though. Never have.

See and I can understand that. One thing I will say is that when it comes to real life settings, I would not "misgender" a trans-identified person. For example at the place I work out, there are like 3 obvious trans-identified people who come in regularly (2 "transwomen", 1 "Transguy") and I never call them by their sex-based pronouns. Because I understand the concept of time and place and that just isn't the time to do that. But when it comes to online and the nature of the discussions I'm having, I do speak out. If it's a trans-identified person I do like, I just address them as "they/them", I think that's a good middle ground where you're not insulting your own intelligence but also not offending the person neither.

I do think it's easier to use someone's preferred pronouns when they pass well. They don't deserve it more or anything just because they're able to play up to stereotypes, but I think it makes the burden on the other person lesser.

Yeah as a feminine presenting guy, I've been called "miss" or "her" a few times (especially at my job sometimes lol) but I just shrug it off. That said the "passing" ones don't get special treatment. Most of the ones who "pass" are usually homosexual men and from feminine man to feminine man, I don't give a pass if that makes sense lol.

[–]TalkToTheVoid 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yea that makes sense.

I used to think being polite in this matter was not much to ask, and for the most part I think I'd rather be polite than not and I'll call whoever whatever they want. But now, after reading a bunch, I think the enforcing of pronouns and equating mistakes in this matter with "violence" is a deliberate attempt to control.

I'm a reclusive person and I struggle with anxiety. I went to a conference/seminar sort of thing once, and they had a room of 30 people all say their pronouns out loud. Then when I was in a smaller group with a few people, there was a female person there whose pronouns were not she/her, but I couldn't remember what they were and so I had to ask again and the whole process was nerve-racking. Then I went on to default to "she/her" several times, by mistake, and feel like the worst person on the planet. In a space where we were supposed to discuss other ideas and concepts, my experience was consumed with getting this person's pronouns right. No one yelled at me or anything, so definitely me being an anxious mess is on me, but it's the TRA movement that's set up the whole specter of "misgendering as violence".

If there were no "literal violence" discourse around pronoun usage, I don't think it would matter, nor would it be a big deal, and most people would be willing to use preferred pronouns, because most people want to get along.

In online discussions and discussions with friends I've found my pronoun usage for trans people to be all over the place, and I'm not working too hard to make it go in either direction. I do wonder though, if I ever meet a trans person who is a jerk, will I be petty and use their biological sex based pronouns? It isn't usual for me to be petty, but if they're a jerk about gender issues, I wonder if I will feel compelled to stand-up to them through pronouns. I hope not, but all of this feels like a very confusing place to be in, and doesn't seem fair that it has to be that way.

"Yeah as a feminine presenting guy, I've been called "miss" or "her" a few times (especially at my job sometimes lol) but I just shrug it off." I knew a very male presenting lesbian who regularly got called "sir" because along with presentation, she had a relatively deep voice for a woman. She shrugged it off too, but sometimes people used it to harass her because she wasn't feminine. She didn't like that. I imagine it's the same for you?

[–]TalkToTheVoid 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Sorry for replying again, but I realized I mentally fixated on Blair White when I first read your post, but you've also mentioned Rose of Dawn. I haven't seen a lot of Rose of Dawn, only a couple of videos and then her appearance on that morning show where she defended JKR. My impression of Rose of Dawn was that they're a male person who likes wearing dresses, makeup, and growing their hair long, and has dysphoria, but that's about it really. I didn't see her aesthetic as the same as Blair White who seems to want to look like a Kardashian. So to me Rose of Dawn seems pretty sensible in that sense, and not someone who's trying to ape some barbiegirl idea of "feminine". Am I missing something?

Also, I read some of your other comments about there not being enough men who choose a more feminine aesthetic without denying their maleness, and I agree with you, that it would be wonderful if there was more of that in the world. That's what I thought Alok Menon was to begin with, but I realized I was wrong. I did remember Billy Porter though. What do you think about him? I also remembered reading about Will Smith's son and Harry Styles as men who've expressed nothing about not being men, but whose aesthetics include feminine elements. I haven't seen enough, but reading about them made me feel hopeful.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just FYI: Rose has has gone to the extreme of having major "facial feminization surgery," surgery to lower his hairline and apparently other surgeries to shave down his Adam's apple and "feminize" his body in other ways too. But Rose is also a very large person with shoulders, hands, feet, height and girth that are unmistakably blokey.

I don't think affecting the sort of look Blaire W has was ever in the ream of possibility for Rose. But if you look at the cartoon imagery Rose uses to represent Rose's self, it seems that the Blaire aesthetic is what Rose would like to emulate and be able to pull off.

[–]TalkToTheVoid 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't know about Rose of Dawn's surgeries. I thought she was mostly just dressing as a woman and maybe taking hormones. I still feel a bit conflicted about it though... I know she experiences dysphoria. I can't relate but I feel sympathy I guess? She wants to alleviate it by changing her body to be as close to female as she can manage. That's what dysphoria does to people who experience it right? None of the surgeries she's undertaken seem like they're about becoming an over-sexualized doll, so to me it feels like whatever she's done is driven by a desire to feel better, not really to be a stereotype.

I couldn't find cartoon imagery other than at the start of her videos. Did you mean that? Or something else? Based on just that, I agree with you that using a Jessica Rabbit sort of image to represent herself does make it seem like that's her ideal for herself.

I still feel inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt though. We've all come up in a world where we're constantly bombarded by images of what an ideal woman is supposed to look like. All of us have to fight that feeling of unworthiness for not having that stupid ideal body. Rose has fallen victim to that messaging too, in that when she imagines how she wishes her body was, she imagines the ideal we're all sold. It does feel odd that she's used that image for herself, but I don't know, I still feel she's not really driven by sexist stereotypes in her aesthetics.

[–]Fortiquen 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

He's a creep, probably a sex offender, should be kicked out and ignored.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why do you think he would be a sex offender?

[–]ShieldMaiden 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Who, Robbie (aka Blaire)? Also, kicked out of where? Youtube?

[–]threefingersam 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Never paid much attention to Blaire White, but he's a man. I'm not going to call him a woman just because he isn't obnoxious like other TIMs.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right

[–]DameDuLac 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

If someone passes, I have no problem using the pronouns (male or female) that they chose to use. Blaire and Rose are not women, they are trans women and they say this themselves, using female pronouns for them is not denying their sex or bending reality or eroding the rights of women, it's just respect for a choice they made for themselves as adults.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Frankly I don't care whether people "pass" or not, being a woman is not some costume you can put on and then become. I get misgendered quite a bit because of how I look as a feminine gay man and it doesn't change the fact that myself, Blaire, Rose, and other HSTS are still men at the end of the day.

You're entitled to call them by female pronouns if you want, that's your choice but me personally, it doesn't matter if they don't claim to be women because 1, I know what they're doing when they do this, 2, it doesn't make them any more "trans" than someone who doesn't "pass", and 3, I don;t think woman (or man) is some skin-sut you can just put on and become just because you're following socially constructed stereotypes.

[–]DameDuLac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Did you even read what I wrote?

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I did read it and I understood what you said. You think that because they don't call themselves "women", that's enough for you to call them by their preferred pronouns and like I said, you're entitled to doing that if you want. I just offered a further explanation of why I don't give them a pass even if they don't call themselves "women" which isn't entirely true since they're calling themselves "Transwomen" which they're trying to mean as another subset of woman which is just not true.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Seems like a direct response to what you said to me?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

using female pronouns for them is not denying their sex or bending reality or eroding the rights of women

That's your opinion. A lot of women disagree: https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Many trans-identified males disagree as well.

TIM Jenn Smith explains how language is being intentionally manipulated for the purpose of getting males into (what should be) female-only spaces where girls & women are vulnerable: https://youtu.be/6yc8BpZe_kc

Miranda Yardley: https://mirandayardley.com/en/why-i-disavow-woman-and-am-no-longer-gender-critical/ https://mirandayardley.com/en/im-confused-about-your-views-on-pronouns-3/

You really think it's not "bending reality or eroding the rights of women" for women who've been assaulted by males to be forced to call their assailants "she" and "her" in court?

https://thepostmillennial.com/women-compelled-by-judiciary-to-defer-to-attackers-gender-preferences-in-court

You think it's not "eroding the rights of women" for women to be banned from social media platforms for correctly noting the sex of a man?

https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/feminist-writer-sues-twitter-after-she-tweets-men-arent-woman-and-gets-banned/

You think it's not "eroding the rights of women" to give males who identify as trans the power to get females who call them men and "he" & "him" arrested coz the these males say the truth causes them “annoyance, inconvenience, or needless anxiety"?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7415233/Mother-arrested-calling-trans-woman-man-Twitter-charged-trolling.html

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1168048556055228416

https://youtu.be/eAoAf7I6qDg

If someone passes

Who decides who "passes"? What is the criteria?

These guys think they pass:

https://youtu.be/Lb6OpRfyLFo

https://youtu.be/Up0mjb4Sn-M

https://youtu.be/NE3OB1aMQj0

If I were to "misgender" any trans-identified male on Twitter or FB, they could get me banned. But TRAs are allowed to call women all sorts of horrible misogynistic names and threaten us with death, rape, disemboweling and dismemberment for not using the language they demand we use for them. But sure that's not "eroding the right of women" at all; it's simply as you say

just respect for a choice they made for themselves as adults.

/s

[–]DameDuLac 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

/s

No, not /s for me. I can have an opinion that is different from yours and you don't get to "s/" that for me. I have read plenty of radfem authors and none of them were so preoccupied with this orthorexia of language, there's more to radical feminism than what pronouns should random people on the internet use for Blaire White.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My /s denoted the tone/mood of my last remark; it was not a comment on you.

I have no problem with people having different opinions, but I can't help but notice that while I responded to numerous specific points you made - and provided links to supporting materials in each case - you have not engaged with a single point I made or with any of the stuff I linked to.

Instead, you've just stomped your feet, wagged your finger, asserted your authority ("I have read plenty radfem authors" LOL) and scoldingly pulled out a big word - orthorexia - that you seem to think is really impressive but actually is not at all applicable here.

You asserted that

using female pronouns for them (males) is not denying their sex or bending reality or eroding the rights of women, it's just respect for a choice they made for themselves as adults.

I disagreed and gave you reasons why, with evidence to back up my POV. How about you in turn give evidence backing up your claims that referring to males as females

  • is not denying their sex or

  • bending reality or

  • eroding the rights of women

  • it's just respect for a choice they made for themselves as adults

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I'm all ears.

[–]DameDuLac 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

you have not engaged

Because it's not worth it to me to waste time to try and change a random anonymous person's opinion on trans people pronouns

any of the stuff I linked to

I was already familiar with many of the links you shared, had already read them and and still this is my opinion

asserted your authority

Asserted my authority? It was just to say I don't really need the wall of links (though someone stumbling upon this discussion might) since I'm not new to radical feminism at all.

big word

This "big word" is not a big word in my first language, and it can be used in that sense, if that doesn't translate to English it's another matter but between the uncalled for "LOL" and trying to mock my use of my second language I'm done answering you.

[–]ShieldMaiden 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No one passes, though, except maybe castrati (male eunuchs castrated before puberty, like Jazz Jennings, although even he doesn't really look like a woman, he looks very much like a boy who's puberty was halted and was fed cross-sex hormones, maybe FFS would make him look more like a woman). All TiMs who went through male puberty still 100% look like men, the biggest tell imo is the skull size. They look like bobble heads compared to women.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah usually the big heads and big hands are a good giveaway. Unless they're like caked in makeup and even then, you can still see through it if you focus on them and it feels like your eyes are playing tricks on you.

[–]hmimperialtortie 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He’s a man. Doesn’t matter what he thinks about anything, nothing can change that - and pronouns refer to sex, not people’s delusions/fetishes.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right lol