all 43 comments

[–][deleted]  (7 children)

[deleted]

    [–]jet199 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    People with mixed European and west African heritage are the best sprinters though. Extra fast twitch muscles. They dominate many sports.

    And that's not just a black African thing because you never see Nigeria or Ghana getting loads of medals at the Olympics.

    So everyone has their positives.

    [–]jykylsin2034 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yes, from a sports perspective things are different. On AVERAGE whites are the strongest, West Africans the fastest short distance, east Africans can go the farthest, and West African plus white is the biggest in muscle mass, Arabs are kind of a jack of all trades, East Asia is small but strong, natives, Indians and southeast Asians are shit except Latinos who are very good fighters.

    [–]SoylentCapitalist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    I'm much more forgiving towards hafus and castizos.

    What's funny about this is that a quadroon still clusters genetically closer to whites than hapas. Even many of the average American mulattoes who are majority white, such as Meghan Markle. Seems you have a bias, and an ignorance of the objectivity on this topic.

    https://saidit.net/s/debatealtright/comments/8527/genetic_distance_between_races/

    [–]Nombre27 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Key point that you've overlooked (?) is that they often don't self-identify in that genetic direction, do they?

    [–]Dashing-Dove 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Inheritable phenotypic traits common to a genetic cluster should matter as much or more than its closeness to another.

    [–]SoylentCapitalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Examining the distance between genetic clusters is more objective and comprehensive.

    [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    One of the sources I linked negated the connection because portions of Kazakhstan and Turkey are located in continental Europe; the overlap of Siberia and the Ottoman Empire with European nations as well. The "x wasn't considered White in America" also happens to be a major factor. How much do these factors affect the definition of White = European, and how can it still be maintained?

    [–]LetssavethefirsworldReturn to Jesus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    White means I am genetically attached to the evolutionary forces of living on the European continent for thousands of years.

    One of those things is a 1-2 thousand year history of Christian civilization. Another is the influence of the Roman Empire. Another is the Ancient Egyptians enslaving Jews and causing them to hate Whites. Another is the climate of Europe, in Scandinavia it's very cold, so Fins, Swedes and Norwegians have very pale skin and sunburn easily. Another is the high genetic clustering of the Irish. Another is the genocide of European criminals in the Middle Ages; this event purged much of the genetic impulse to violence. Another is the food that grows in Europe and how that nutrition affected the development of our skeleton structure.

    Most of these patterns and events have been lost to history. We can only speculate based on how we turned out.

    All of these events and forces, molded the European distinct from the Asia, Africa, and North America (and they from he). Our blood is in that soil. In many ways the soil, has been fertilized by my ancestors. That is Whiteness

    [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Well, this is true. But the notion that these are one people legally and socially seems to have come up only since colonization in the 17th century.

    [–]LetssavethefirsworldReturn to Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Yeah, pan-Europeanism hasn't been popular for a long time because they saw other races as non human or subhuman for most of human history. Those ideas changed, and Whiteness started to be codified into the legal system. For example, SA and USA both had race written into their laws, and they specifically use the term 'White'

    [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Is this a similar conclusion to the whiteness studies writers/those "debunking" white pride, or does this allow us to unite around whiteness in the end?

    [–]LetssavethefirsworldReturn to Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Whites were always united around Whiteness. To them what we call 'Whiteness' was to them living as a human. That's my point

    [–]Jackalope 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (21 children)

    Extremely thoughtful and intriguing questions. I have often wondered some of the same things and am very interested to see the responses to this.

    [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

    I agree with this as well. I would want to see a debate or a book review of one of the popular whiteness studies titles (from Roediger, Jacobson, Painter etc.).

    [–]Jackalope 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

    I am personally not a white nationalist, and many of the points you brought up are certainly issues that keep from embracing an ideology like this. I was hoping to read some convincing new takes that would at least challenge my own views, but have to say I am a little disappointed by the responses to the issues surrounding defining 'whiteness'. The contamination principle, or 'one drop of blood' issue you brought up I think was in no way answered satisfactorily.

    What is the view here on Elizabeth Warren aka 'Pocahontas'?

    Does her tiny percentage of Native American make her ethnic claims laughable? (If so what is the cut-off point, I have seen specific words like 'Octaroon' used here, so I would infer 1/8 is considered substantial non-whiteness)

    Or is she brown by the contamination principle? Genetic testing seems to show that at least in the US, people have a lot less pure of bloodlines than they might imagine. In this case I also question some of the arguments about 'traceable European ancestry' and others I have seen in this thread that seem like they would probably pertain to people who are the vast majority 'white European' by DNA.

    Anyways, I think this question of how to define 'white' is an academically interesting question, and I appreciate your attempt to solicit well thought out answers to to it.

    [–]Fonched[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

    The one-drop rule thing I was referring to was rather different, in the sense of people who skew more towards half of one race rather than having trace amounts of both such as Warren (such cases are never really mentioned in whiteness studies). There is a famous quote that goes, "a white woman can have a black child, but a black woman cannot have a White child." It's why Barack Obama for instance, despite being half-black and half-white, is always considered black over white and where claims of the entire whiteness system being based on purity and being oppressive.

    Otherwise I feel that is beyond the scope of today's discussion as result. But there is more to be brought up, with Anglos vs. other ethnic groups in America and the entire concept of whiteness.

    [–]Jackalope 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    The one-drop rule thing I was referring to was rather different,

    Otherwise I feel that is beyond the scope of today's discussion as result

    Apologies, wasn't intending to derail the discussion. I personally do not understand the boundaries of race in a lot of ways, I'll leave it at that.

    But there is more to be brought up, with Anglos vs. other ethnic groups in America and the entire concept of whiteness.

    I look forward to your future posts on the concept of whiteness. It has become a taboo topic unfortunately, and I am interested to hear some perspectives.

    [–]Fonched[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

    This thread is more about interpreting historical definitions of whiteness laid by societies. Personal definitions of whiteness are something different.

    If you would like, I could bring more concepts to the table in the replies below.

    [–]Jackalope 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    This thread is more about interpreting historical definitions of whiteness laid by societies. Personal definitions of whiteness are something different.

    I agree personal definitions are rather irrelevant, I think my interest is in how society defines whiteness, today (or should define it for that matter). The historical definitions I think are certainly relevant, but multiculturalism and globalism have perhaps made these definitions a bit murkier than when we were dealing with unadulterated unmixed gene pools.

    If you would like, I could bring more concepts to the table in the replies below.

    Yes, I am interested to hear your thoughts and the thoughts of others as well.

    [–]Fonched[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

    I concern myself with past definitions of whiteness because of how much it is used within the realm of whiteness studies, and therefore I am looking for answers to those questions. It seems to relate to why people dislike whiteness in the present day, and supposed fluidity with certain groups becoming more middle-class.

    So I'll start with this for us to go over. https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2184754/chinese-were-white-until-white-men-called-them-yellow

    [–]Jackalope 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Interesting that Japanese did not consider themselves the same race as the Chinese, though not surprising. I rather disagree with the Japanese, while their skin tone and features are somewhat different, they share genetic traits (epicanthal eye fold) AND linguistic origins (Shared character system, similar to latin vs english). I don't think that the continent thing is ALL wrong.

    However as u/Tuisto pointed out to me in a response, and I think very correctly - genetics clearly can't be all of race. If we perform the thought experiment of a gene therapy to make a Black person from the ghetto genetically white, it is fairly absurd to say they are now white on many levels. Clearly the culture factor is relevant as well.

    This seems like the classic Nature vs Nurture argument framed as Genetics vs Culture where both factors are clearly relevant despite certain preferences people have for one over the other. You can't become white through gene therapy. You also cannot become white by being adopted by whites at birth (the 100% cultural case). To be 'White' would seem to have BOTH genetic and cultural implications of some sort as well.

    Edit: I didn't state this but my arguments should make it obvious that I do not consider Chinese or Japanese to be White. Divergent genetics (Skin melanation epicanthal folds) + Completely different culture and language origins. I'm saying they need to meet both conditions, and they meet neither.

    [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Well there is a paywall, so I am not getting far with that article. But your explanation does make sense.

    The next topic I would like to speak of is brought up in one of my articles. It says that if Judaism is considered a religion and a race, then it opens up the possibility of Islam, Catholicism etc. also being a race. If so, why is the former defined as one more often culturally?

    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

      Just would like to note this wording might have been a little inaccurate - it refers to people who have one White parent, which are never considered part of the White group unlike any other race they may be.

      [–][deleted]  (5 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

        Yes. Still, what do you think of that classification? Is it always true, or has spread to biracial people of two non-White races? Does it make whiteness inherently oppressive?

        [–][deleted]  (3 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

          So I see, although the half-Lebanese is definitely closer to White regardless of the mixture. I guess this is a part where appearance is key to racial identification. I had, however also heard of a study where those who are half-White identified with the other race over White most of the time.

          My thread is more about how whiteness was historically interpreted and whether it all gives credence to White identity today. Even if I do veer onto asking who is classified as White as a whole, I am mostly speaking of the "gray areas" (Kazakhstan, Ottoman Empire being European descent, etc.) in the puzzle.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

          [deleted]

            [–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

            Your post just looks like a more complicated 'what is white' post. I will warn you that on reddit we had bad faith posters make these threads daily in order to distract, divide and waste time. If the mods here decide you are doing that you will be banned.

            How malleable is whiteness?

            All racial and ethnic groups are moldable. That's really what religion, culture, morals and propaganda are all about. They steer the race in certain directions. Why do you think people get so passionate about religion, culture and morality? They intuitively know it steers the breed. Spiritual considerations aside humans aren't much different then crops or domesticated animals. Jews attack and farm whites using this knowledge. They propagandize whites into mixing their genetics into objectively docile, submissive, breeds. Hybrid breeds that do not threaten the ruling class Jews. If you don't know what you are you have no reason to fight for your existence. This has already impacted the white race. Anti natal propaganda has had another major impact. The clear message is either be gay/trans/coomer (hedonic) or be career focused (greed) or don't breed (selfish) or if you're going to breed do it with a non white male because white males = historic and current evil. That's what women and young people are told day in and day out in the west.

            Whiteness is even more moldable when outsiders that hate whites (see: Jews) are the ones classifying and defining what whiteness is. Do you see how that works? To people of clear and traceable European lineage being white is not subjective or indiscernible. The definition of 'whiteness' only become an issue when you're an outsider with a grudge or an insider that's been duped into hating yourself and your people.

            So who is familiar with any of the significant whiteness studies titles?

            Almost everyone on this board.

            From my experience with these writings, the authors explain “whiteness” by different parameters than the legal classifications they were subject to.

            These are all written by Jews that hate white people and want to genocide us. You shouldn't take anything they say seriously.

            The story goes that the Irish, Italians, etc. were seen as “lesser Whites” by the populace in various ways, but how much?

            This is a stupid question. These groups weren't seen as lesser whites at all. This is warping of history. Irish were seen as lesser whites because the Oligarchs of England wanted to exploit and genocide the Irish. See: artificial potato famine. This was a divide and conquer tactic use by very very small groups of royalty in European society. Whites, like all races, fight with each other. Africans have tribal warfare. Japanese had different clans and kingdoms. Whites are no different. The European race is divided into different tribes and nations that have moved around and fought with eachother for millennia. The 'lesser' white and 'greater' white thing was just a propaganda tactic to get one group of Europeans to dominate another. War is part of the human condition. War and strife does not erase white identity no matter what a Jewish author or 'historian' says.

            Whiteness is said to be defined by what it is not, an opposite to other groups which were racialized by the dominant class

            No. 'White' is a very clear collection of unique observable genetics, traits and historical circumstances. Implying that white people only define themselves by subjective choice is a bad faith argument and a subversive idea. This idea is known in american political circles as 'civic nationalism' or a 'choice nation'. It's promoted with marketing hype and bullshit. It's marketed by paid off corrupt cucks like Charlie Kirk and Dan Crenshaw. Before that it was promoted by traitorous asshole like John McCain. These people go to world economic foreign training meetings and study how to lie to the public and convice it to move towards global governance run by a small group of satanic pedophile occultists.

            As a result of these rules, they say is that it is still reasonably acceptable to celebrate ethnicities (“Scottish pride”, “Italian pride”, etc.), and that the dissolution of whiteness will even benefit individuals of European descent because it will allow for their individual cultures to be celebrated and for class solidarity to improve.

            This is an outdated propaganda model. The newer propaganda is less tolerant of regional European pride. They move the populace towards satanism and sterilization in increments. You're behind about two or three propaganda models.

            This is all hence why “Black” is capitalized but “white” isn’t or why “white pride” is said to have hardly any meaning outside skin color or hatred. If any other trait that unifies Whites is searched for, they speak satirically of it, with examples such as Cracker Barrel, mayonnaise, Florida Man, or negatively as colonization and the like, or that classical figures having been White is irrelevant due to other scholars preserving their memory or their lineage not being able to be traced to present-day Whites.

            I'm not sure why you're writing this. We are all aware of this propaganda. If you lurked our board more you'd know we've identified and discussed this hundreds of times.

            In all, do any alt-right perspectives on these topics exist?

            Yes. We identify it as one of many forms of Jewish subversion.

            Here are some resources which illustrate the points made here.

            We are already aware of these.

            [–]shilldetector 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

            I will warn you that on reddit we had bad faith posters make these threads daily in order to distract, divide and waste time. If the mods here decide you are doing that you will be banned.

            Honestly, these are largely empty threats. On reddit they were quickly banned but they have thrived here on saidit. Radicalcentrist has been proven to be blatantly misrepresenting himself while spreading neocon propaganda, and he was never banned and has gone on to be one of the most prolific and despised posters on this sub.

            [–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            Radicalcentrist has been proven to be blatantly misrepresenting himself while spreading neocon propaganda, and he was never banned and has gone on to be one of the most prolific and despised posters on this sub.

            I can't stand radicalcentrist and if it were soley up to me he'd be gone. However, he doesn't necessarily break rules. You're not banned for having non alt right views. In fact radicalcentrist has a lot of alt right views. The only thing that's consistently not dissident is his pro covid vax shilling. I suspicion he's here to shill the vax but I can't really prove that and so I can't ban him for a 'suspicion'. Since we have such a small group of regular posters I try to error on the side of caution when banning 'bad faith' rule breakers. 'Bad faith' i.e. rule 2 is a difficult thing to prove. I don't want admin or potential new users to think that we just randomly ban people we disagree with because we don't.

            [–]shilldetector 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            3) Rule 3: No misrepresentation of your political, ethnic, racial or religious positions.

            Look at his early comments, the ones he hasnt deleted. Then look at his comments now. They are literally almost all polar opposites. He went from being a Jewish globalist/neocon to pretending to be a white nationalist literally over night. You also cant say he just suddenly changed his mind as he has stated that he essentially became a white nationalist in 2017. He clearly and blatantly misrepresents his positions. In fact I have never seen a more blatant example of it unless you count blork3d getting caught fed posting on reddit under one name and reporting himself with the other.

            [–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Look at his early comments,

            Which ones? Are you referencing here on saidit or reddit days? I do remember vaguely thinking that this guy is a NOT right wing at all but it was so long ago I don't have specific detailed recollections.

            He went from being a Jewish globalist/neocon to pretending to be a white nationalist literally over night

            He might have actually changed his positions. If you look at my reddit comments from 2010 I'm a logical moderate liberal. 2015, I'm a jewden peterstein dick cleaning libertarian. 2016, I'm alt lite, 2017 I'm 14, 2018 I'm 1488.

            You also cant say he just suddenly changed his mind as he has stated that he essentially became a white nationalist in 2017. He clearly and blatantly misrepresents his positions. In fact I have never seen a more blatant example of it unless you count blork3d getting caught fed posting on reddit under one name and reporting himself with the other.

            I appreciate your input. Respect your contributions and will discuss it with the mods.

            [–]shilldetector 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I'm referring to his comments when he first popped up on this sub on saidit. If you remember Doublereverse, he was so similar that I initially thought that's who he was. So imagine doublereverse coming in here one day and saying the white race must be preserved and the Nazis did nothing wrong! Nobody would believe he was being genuine.

            I understand this is a free speech website, so regardless of whether he's being disengenuous or not or is an actual shill, as long as he isnt spamming the site, doxxing or threatening people I dont have a major problem with him saying whatever he wants here. The problem is if he's kind of feeling out the sub to decide what kind of subversion he can get away with and he's basically a trojan horse. Just something to be aware of and to monitor.

            [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            I am making these threads as a starting point for those who might have seen all the beliefs I listed above, but aren't fortunate enough to come by answers elsewhere.

            [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            These groups weren't seen as lesser whites at all.

            I was primarily speaking about the American model which alleges that whiteness' definitions fluctuates on an economic basis and that some may become White because they become middle class or conservative, for instance. There are some more exmaples which whiteness scholars use to say there was a rift inbetween the standard American White such as the "Irish apes"/NINA, the 1924 immigration act, and lynchings. That is one of the largest reasons they allege that White does not equal European when they believe some were excluded. I can see that the White category may be genetically affected if objection to miscegenation disappears with the abolition of whiteness.

            This is an outdated propaganda model. The newer propaganda is less tolerant of regional European pride. They move the populace towards satanism and sterilization in increments. You're behind about two or three propaganda models.

            I find it strange some of the popular media challenging white pride still offer alternatives of ethnic pride despite having been made in the past few years then. I don't see how exactly those prides are being derailed, unless Whites are focusing on all the left-wing and material stuff as their identity.

            If you lurked our board more you'd know we've identified and discussed this hundreds of times.

            What are some particular examples taking on these conceptions about what White culture is? It is a popular meme, after all.

            Here are some resources which illustrate the points made here.

            Yes. But it's just for those viewers who may not know, and I wouldn't mind seeing more comprehensive takes on this.

            [–]Samuyil_Hyde 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            This just sounds like your standard Jew deconstructing "whiteness" bullshit posed as a question, with talking points taken straight from Noel Ignatiev no less.

            White simply means indigenous European. Yeah sure there are some slight gray areas on the borders of Europe like Spain and Russia, but that neither proves nor disproves anything. They are still "white enough" for government work. Also, the Irish may have been seen as the red headed step childs of the British Isles, but they were still always seen as white.

            Ashkenazi Jews are kind of a special case not so much because they are genetically different, but because they belong to a culture that has traditionally been hostile and subversive to indigenous Europeans, and this hostility has only increased in recent times. They also followed a middle eastern religion that held themselves up racially as the chosen people of a supreme deity. I'm not aware of any Europeans that essentially worshipped themselves. It also probably doesnt help that they practiced cousin marriage for a couple millenia, which probably only increased their clannishness and distinctiveness from other people living in Europe.

            Blacks simply appear to be the most genetically and culturally different people on earth from Europeans, and they have been weaponized by Jews to attack whites, literally and figuratively, so it's understandable that European people still tend to view them as inherently different. Blacks often appear to do the same themselves. The recent acceptance of double standards regarding black behavior we've seen from white liberals is further proof that even they see blacks as inherently different. Whites have always heavily criticized other whites, the fact white liberals wont ever do that to blacks is proof that they are seen as different. Well that and white liberals are literally either afraid of blacks, or fetishize them.

            [–]Fonched[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Good reference; although it is primarily about how it was seen in America, and how the locals classified that there.

            The comic I posted claims that since Judaism can be considered to be more than a religion, the person trying to define whiteness might say the same about Catholicism and Islam for instance.

            I am also uncertain of how much they would have been considered White in America, since they are considered less so than any other non-Anglo-Saxon group.

            [–]IkeConn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Being white means you never have to give your race a second thought. Got that?

            Being white is all right.

            [–]Fonched[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

            What does that mean exactly? We say that "white culture is everywhere" is a sign of white culture existing, but the left says that it means Whites don't face any challenges (like "straight pride").

            [–]IkeConn 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

            I don't know any normal white people that have a problem being white. Now some lefty whites somehow get all butt hurt that they are white like it is unfair or something. Being white is like being a high school male that is 6'+ tall, blue eyed, good looking, muscular, hung and all the girls want you. Being a darkie is like automatically you are a second class citizen or like the beta male that is never getting laid unless he marries a 35 year old Stacey that has 4 of Chad's children and got fat.