all 27 comments

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 38 insightful - 2 fun38 insightful - 1 fun39 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Gender ideology is completely incompatible with LGB, with women's rights and with children safe guarding.

It invades and destroys rights of 3 other groups that were previously seen as important to protect and now are just after thoughts behind the genderfolk.

It's honestly insane how so many people can not see this.

[–]sneeuweekhoorn 29 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

It is hard to have a community with rabid homophobes who hate the very existence of same-sex attraction and who want to force themselves onto people, yes.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 31 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 0 fun32 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

To put it another way, I think they perceive the bond that lesbians have with lesbians and gay men have with gay men, and they realize that they are never really going to be able to experience that. From that perception comes a deep resentment and a desire to make us as miserable as they are.

[–]TiredTrendersSuper-gay 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Pretty much. Misery loves company after all.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"You need to suck the cockadoodie girl dick!"

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Instead of raising themselves up, they drag us down.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But they could build that community for themselves with other straight trans people. They're like crabs in a bucket.

[–]julesburm1891 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s like trying to combine a soccer club with a group of people who think sports in general are stupid and would rather talk about cross-stitching. The groups not only have nothing in common, but one is actively opposed to the interests of the other.

[–]Daddiescummies 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think a great example of this is gay bars. People got upset at the fact that gay bars were designed for gay men, and not for mentally ill tenderqueers, so any gay bar that prioritizes gay men over cis women LARPing as oppressed gets shut down.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Now I know why gay bars are gone. I just want a space where I can be around other same-sex-attracted men but I also support spaces for same-sex-attracted women to hang out with each other. But those things are not allowed, "because they’re exclusive". But that’s the point, they were meant to be exclusive. When these spaces stopped being exclusive, it wasn’t long before these spaces started to fade.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It didn't help that straight women used them as a place to get away from those pesky heterosexual men...without caring about the fact that LGB need a space away from heterosexuals too.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I was in a lesbian bar recently (remember those?!) and there was a bachelorette party for a straight girl in there too (and yes she said she was straight, not a bisexual girl marrying a man). While that group didn’t act particularly obnoxious to my knowledge and so it could have been a lot worse, I did think about how ignorant she and her friends must have been about how few lesbian bars and spaces of any kind are left.

I really don’t think straight people have any idea of how dire things are for lesbians. Tbh they never hear about us anymore. When I was closeted I was not coming across out lesbians or bisexual women who were dating women. Gay really did seem to be presented a mainly male thing, and I think that kept me in a fog.

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Honestly, think about it from the bar's perspective. These people were paying to be there and helping keep the bar operating. That's literal financial support to the lesbian community.

Lesbian bars have gone under because it's no longer economically feasible to have an establishment cater to such a small community. The overhead for owning a brick and mortar business, and one that sells mainly alcohol at that, is so high they need to be packed several nights a week to make a profit.

The ones who have survived have done so by selectively allowing outsiders in if they behave. A lot of times that hasn't worked out and transbians and pervy straight men have driven lesbians away (like a bar I know that has now rebranded as a karaoke bar in recent years.) It sounds like this bar's owners have found a good middle ground. At least they're still here.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

like a bar I know that has now rebranded as a karaoke bar in recent years.

Lipstick Lounge?

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, I guess there's more than one. Not a shock really.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can understand straight women wanting a place where they could dance without being bothered, but why don’t they just set up places only for women? Or go to clubs that have lady’s nights? Furthermore, straight men go where women go. So if there are a lot of straight women at gay male bars, then straight men are going to go there. Gay bars cannot turn straight men away because straight men are men, and even if the club excludes straight men, a straight man could just pretend he’s gay or bisexual so he could be let in. This not only defeats the purpose of straight women going to gay male bars to avoid straight men, this also defeats the purpose of gay male bars altogether, because before you know it, most of the men there are straight, because of all the women there.

Fuck it, bisexual men go to gay bars too, and they hit on women.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s sad, but that’s what happens. The fight for the right of same-sex-attracted people to be left alone is based on reality and acceptance of what you are. TRAs want to go against reality and change something fundamental about you.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The compatibility of the "community" was based off gender nonconformity. Gay people are by definition gender nonconforming unless they go full closet mode. You are supposed the get married and have 2.5 kids etc...

It goes full crazy when all societal norms got lumped in with gender.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

under that definition unmarried straight people are gender nonconforming.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Somewhat but society views it differently when a person fails at getting a mate but another person just outright rejects it.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Again, an unmarried straight women, maybe a certain type of feminist may decide she doesn’t want to be in a relationship, and rejects it, by choice would fit your definition.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes true. Not sure what point you are trying to make lol...

That part is exactly why 2nd wave feminism took on a critical view of gender.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The compatibility of the "community" was based off gender nonconformity. Gay people are by definition gender nonconforming

Just that I don’t agree with the idea of gays as being non gender conforming by default. It seems like a stretching of the the definition of gender non conforming. Are married gays gender conforming?

I think it’s more about societal rules than gender rules, IMO.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender is literally sex based societal rules.

[–]dilsencySame-sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gay people are by definition gender nonconforming unless they go full closet mode. You are supposed the get married and have 2.5 kids etc...

What are you trying to say here? That gay people that get married and have children are "closet mode"? Or that they are not gender nonconforming? Just trying to understand your argument.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm saying that since gender is a set of societal expectations and that they can conform to those expectations by playing the expected role. It's much more obvious in a hierarchical structure like if the people have a right wing political mindset. When the religious right fought us on marriage equality their primary argument was about the "choice" of homosexuality.

To most gay people this idea of "choice" doesn't make any sense, especially to those of us with more of a left wing political mindset. We don't choose to be sexually attracted to the same sex. The issue at hand is the actual performance of the gender vs attraction.

If you detach it from any political mindset and just have a gay person exist in a vacuum then they realize that they are same sex attracted.

It's absolutely possible for a gay person to be fully gender conforming in a different gender system and I do think we had been making significant progress in that direction. If society were to stop viewing men as being inferior for acting out on their sexual attraction then they could be conforming.

Gender changes based on whatever society expects from men and women so it could change over time. It's why many gender critical people want to push for the idea of eliminating gender. So that men and women can just exist without being pressured into acting out an expected role in society.

Full elimination would be nearly impossible but we could much more easily open up what is considered acceptable for the roles we play... Unfortunately the TRAs are creating the opposite problem where gender is heavily enforced with the idea that they get to magically ignore how society views them and identify their way into any new imagined gender then demand to be recognized as such. Their mindset requires that genders exist in order to claim they "are a gender" which doesn't even make any sense. No one can be a gender.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Last I checked with my non-binary she/they lesbian TRA friend on this her own identity rested on biological sex being distinct from gender identity and meaningful because without it she was neither female nor gay. She was totally unaware of or at least in denial about the sex denialism aspect of trans activism. I feel like when she finally peaks, that has to be part of why. Because right now she gets to have it all: gay, female caring about and identifying with women’s issues and sexism, and somehow also non-binary. It makes no sense whatsoever.