you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (132 children)

“Do women have a right to choose who is and who is not allowed to view their naked bodies? Do women have a right to only see penis when they consent to it?”

Do we? No. Should we? Absofuckinglutely.

It’s so fucking infuriating to me that this is happening because some males don’t want to change around other males (obviously I know it could be more about wanting to be in the female space for… reasons… rather than feeling uncomfortable in the male space, but the official reasoning is “not discriminating against gender identity”). So… the concept of being uncomfortable around male bodies is something that is understood and sympathized with- but only if you’re a male yourself? Otherwise, it’s not that you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, no you’re just a hateful bigot. It’s insane. They really think this is progressive. The fact that less than 1% of males is the reason that 100% of females (at least where i live- not world wide) pretty much have no sex based rights anymore is an atrocity.

I know this is more about the men who may/will/have abused the laws that allow males into those spaces- but it’s still because of the laws in place for transwomen so I don’t think that it matters when trans people denounce the men doing this, they are the reason it’s possible and they aren’t doing anything to make it not possible.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (131 children)

… the concept of being uncomfortable around male bodies is something that is understood and sympathized with- but only if you’re a male yourself?

It’s not just comfort. It’s safety. If I go into a men’s locker room I will at least have a higher than average chance of being physically assaulted. Why can’t you at least acknowledge that as a motivation for not wanting to be in men’s spaces? Men are dangerous to trans women. Being in an enclosed and isolated space with them more so. Can you at least acknowledge that? You know i prefer single occupancy spaces anyway but you know that at minimum some trans women don’t want to be in men’s spaces because they are worried about physical harm.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (130 children)

then ask for trans spaces. None of the violence you cite makes you a woman nor does it make the women's room a sanctuary for you from male violence. High school locker rooms are violent, gym lockers for adults not so. I've seen weird shit in lockers at gyms but no violence. This isn't high school.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (129 children)

Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves. That’s bad. I advicate where possible for single occupancy neutral spaces but also those would never happen large scale without a government mandate.

And men are dangerous wherever they are. They are just hardest to escape when in a tiny single exit room with more than average privacy and assurances a woman ( a person capable of empathy unlike men) will be there to help or call for help.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

“Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves”

Assuming you meant “out”

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed? (Left out violence since we are discussing third spaces as a protective measure, meaning we’d be dealing with preventing violence already by adding third spaces)

Meaning, why can’t we fight for protections for trans people against discrimination, and also rally for trans spaces so everyone- trans or not- is safe and comfortable? Truly the best bet for trans people is to stop trying to get everyone to accept them as women/men, and get people to accept them as trans. So how does it not make the most sense to fight to protect and make space for trans people, and make it safer for them to be out? Particularly when there are so many visibly trans trans people anyway?

Im not being snarky, I’m genuinely asking. I feel like any community that needs protections or established rights has to fight for them, but no other community fights for those things while also fighting to conceal their status as a member of that community.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed?

None materially, but that’s an ever present threat. Plus literally everyone will treat you better if they think you are cis. My life sucks because everyone knows I’m trans. I’d kill (metaphorically) to just be seen as normal.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay but the rest of my question was literally about focusing on making things better for trans people. So I’m asking, what if the goal was “safe spaces specifically for trans people, as well as establishing rights/protections for trans people against discrimination” (as we did for women. And lgb. And poc. And refugees. And immigrants. And… you get my point)? Meaning why not try to focus on making it easier/better for trans people to be openly trans, again particularly since many trans people don’t have much choice in the matter, instead of trying to protect them on the basis of being trans while also trying to help conceal that they are trans?

Like- you’d kill to be seen as normal, but if that’s not an option, shouldn’t we try to make things better for you and others in your shoes?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (95 children)

Sorry got clipped off there. Being “trans not men or women” is not going to lead to us living normal lives. It’s necessaarilly othering. Plus many might take offense and feel like shit to be told legally they aren’t real people.

Plus trans people will never be accepted. Like being visibly trans will never not suck. It’s not salvageable. Stealth will always be better for the stealth person.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

Being trans is not normal. That’s not an insult or anything- It’s just not. And being trans doesn’t mean you’re not a real person so idk what you’re talking about with that.

Being trans is an abnormal thing, it’s rare. Trans people have to accept that. Because even if you stealth, there’s always risk of being outed. Or of having to trust someone, even just a potential romantic partner, enough to tell them.

Idk what you think a “normal” life is, but if protections are in place that makes it easier for you to get a job, a home, and medical care when you need it, the rest is kind of on you, as far as what your life is made up of. Date people who are open to being with trans people. Make friends with people who don’t care, or embrace your community. Being out doesn’t mean you can’t live your life- I’m not really getting what you’d be kept from.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (93 children)

When you are trans you aren’t just a person. You being trans defines every interaction. And for the negative.

Immagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain. Everyone. Immagine what that’s like. Because that’s what life is for an out trans person. Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal and everyone will remind you of it every day even without getting into safety.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

I promise you the rest of us don’t care nearly as much as you think we do. most of us generally dgaf, we just don’t want to be forced to participate or be affected since it has nothing to do with us- that’s not disdain, it’s just not wanting to constantly gaslight ourselves, attempt to reprogram ourselves, or go along with things we know to be untrue. you said trans people are being told they aren’t “real” people- that’s what I referred to earlier. Being othered when you actually are « other » (you can’t deny being trans is an incredibly unique experience that the rest of us- all 99%- can not begin to relate to) is not the same as not being considered real. And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

I think seeing as how you have carte blanche to dismantle female rights, it’s a bit ridiculous to act as if everyone Everyone. looks at you with pity or disdain. If that were true, women would still have sex based rights, spaces, and sports. Why are people bending over backwards to accommodate trans people, even « trans » people, if everyone Everyone. looks on you with disdain? Why the cancel culture? Why rewrite lgb history? Why the newspeak? Why are people burning jkr’s books? Why the mass shut down of pro women/trans critical Reddit subs? Why a thousand other little and big things that contradict your narrative that everyone hates/pities trans people?

You’re actually not entitled to a life free of pity or disdain, unfortunately. So if people feeling sorry for you truly is the price you have to pay for women to maintain their rights and for you to obtain yours- that doesn’t exactly come across as a raw deal to me. Particularly since what you’re saying is a gross exaggeration anyway…

You « can’t be normal » because you refuse to attempt to treat your actual mental condition (and call any attempts at finding treatment conversion therapy) and you struggle to/can’t accept reality (not you you, the community in general, it seems). Don’t put that on everyone else, we have nothing to do with that. What even is “normal”? When you live a life having altered as much of yourself as you can the way someone does when they « transition », I don’t think you can really expect normalcy, at best you can hope for routine. By nature of being trans you have a very specific and distinct experience that nobody who isn’t trans can relate to. I don’t really see how that’s ever going to be « normal ». If you mean live a stereotype of a life, plenty of out trans people get married and have families and just Idk go to work and do whatever « normal » shit is every day. There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Im sorry, I just don’t think not wanting people to pity you or have what you consider disdain- but is more likely indifference and/or a lack of a sense of obligation to placate- is enough to justify undermining women’s rights instead of fighting for your own on the basis of what you literally are. It’s absurd and self serving to refuse a route that would benefit the majority of trans people because you want to be able to keep being trans a secret so more people might like you 🙄.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (49 children)

And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

They won’t no matter what. And it is a shameful thing that should be kept a secret if you can. Stealth is your only chance at a normal life.

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

Yeah I know if you don’t care we are treated like wretches.

There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Because they are stealth. You don’t get a life as an out trans person. No one will love you. You will struggle to fine even mediocre employment. You will exist and noone will care of you live or die. Stealth people get lives. We get … existences. Shit this isn’t even about me. I don’t pass. But I want others who might be able to to have a shot at a life worth living.

Humans are social creatures and if you are treated like a freak by everyone you interact with it effects you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

It’s just odd to me- in my head Im presenting the best (realistic) case scenario: protections and acceptance as trans, and you’re just like- nah, leave us in this in between stage with all this tension and discomfort on all sides.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people. Trying to get people to see TW as women and TM as men has gotten mixed results to say the least, you can’t fathom that we might accept and support you as what you are, you don’t want us to fight for safe spaces for you because you don’t want to be outed, you want single occupancy but think it’s not realistically going to be implemented- like what the fuck do you want? Lol what do you hope for? Because frankly you’re painting this incredibly dark picture where no matter what you’re just kind of assed out in all areas of life.

I don’t have a point or a question Im just lost at this point lol

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Learned helplessness coupled with an expectation on others to solve any and all discomforts in life is what’s ruining these peoples lives, not imagined pity.

Any solution that is not all women stepping in to solve male pain is unacceptable, impossible, and very cruel. Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (37 children)

Acceptance won’t happen. Rights are needed largely because of that.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people

Correct

At least if they accept we are women (and trans men are men) they won’t think we are Wretched freaks. Which is what you want. “Stop hiding that you are freaks and let everyone hate you openly” that’s not a plan that helps us.

No one will ever accept trans people As anything more than circus freaks if the narrative of “trans people aren’t like normal people” is the refrain. Also you are asking us to abandon our identities and take on new ones. I don’t think of myself as “neither a man or a woman” I think of myself as a woman with a birth defect. Telling people I’m not a woman would be me lying.

I’m not worried about being outed. Everyone knows what I am. I see how nonpassing trans people get treated Nd I want better for others.

Noone would pay for dedicated trans spaces. Absent a legal mandate anyway. I would love single occupancy as a standard but again who is paying for that?

what the fuck do you hope for

Death mostly anymore

painting a dark picture where you are asses out in all areas of life

You are finally getting it. Being an obvious trans woman sucks. It’s better than the pretransition dysphoria but it’s a miserable life.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Imagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain.

I mean, being a woman who rejects femininity, I'm pretty used to being treated as a failure at anything other than making men's dicks go up. I hear talks of how subhuman women are every day, including from trans communities who are currently pushing back decades of progress women have made for the sake of their validation.

Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal

Well, yeah, you're in a group that's getting plastic surgeries and amputations, creating an artificial hormonal imbalance and spending a lifetime on hormones not meant for your body for no reason other than having a mental illness that makes you think a healthy, normal body you have is "wrong" and "disgusting". Even the trans people recognise that passing this off as having a male or female body isn't going to pass, hence why so many progressive positions revolve not around acceptance, but tricking people that you're really the opposite sex as effectively as possible. Imagine if gay people only insisted their partners legally be treated as the opposite sex so they could feel "normal", or if women had to amputate their breasts and take testosterone to stop being treated as subhuman...Oh wait, that one's already happening.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

What does this mean: "Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves"; and how is it different than how a man uses the men's room because his body defines him as such or a woman uses the women's room because her body defines her as such? Why is it bad? Also, that is one hell of a sexist assumption that men are incapable of empathy and women are somehow more capable of it. What you're seeing is the adaptation of women as a coherent segment of our society adapting to the fact that they are the smaller and more at risk of male violence than men. Are you seeing empathy around this Wi Spa thing? When you don't see this womanly empathy, do you then write them off as right wing evil terfs, instead of equally women as the women you think you get empathy from? Very sexist assumptions you got there.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

It was a typo. “Out themselves”

Also, that is one hell of a sexist assumption that men are incapable of empathy and women are somehow more capable of it.

If you say so. Men are monsters and I’m done softballing that stance. Women are capable of empathy. Men are monsters. That’s not a slam on women. They’re humans with emotions other than “hate” “lust” or “nothing”.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

So, we all "out" ourselves when we enter the bathroom. There can be no other way, unless you get your supposed wish and make every business build god-knows how many bathrooms. For a gym that fits one hundred people: how many separate facilities should they build?

Men are monsters and women are "capable" of empathy: sexist assumptions upon which gender is built by QT and by misogynists who want to keep women down. Every time I walk into a bathroom, I have to check to see if I think I'm going to get mugged, as I grew up in a violent city with a lot of crime. Fearing the mens room does not mean any one can then use the women's room. A adult gym locker room is not a violent place. Your perception of it is your perception. Using the women's room because they can't stop you and they can't beat you up has nothing to do with the empathy you imagine.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

It’s not sexist. Men are monsters. Woman are dynamic humans. You can’t be sexist against men so it isn’t sexist.

A men’s locker room is an isolate room with only men in it therefore no one to possible help you, restricted exits, and full of the worst kind of men fresh off a post workout testosterone boost. There isn’t a less safe place for a trans woman.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You are sexist, you make sexist assumptions about both men and women. You can't make up fake rules about not being able to be sexist against men, because sexism hems in men and women equally into their own pens. Trans people look at the pen they are not hemmed into according to their birth sex and somehow (editing the next part of this sentence to be more accurate) imagine they belong realize they would rather be in in the other pen, either to hide from being confronted with the reality of their inadequacy or to be predators of the AGP or other varieties, instead of realizing the pens are the problem. You are making shit up about mens locker rooms. You only feel safe in women's locker rooms because you have the same advantage over them that you fear, that makes you bullies. You don't want to be around people you fear but want to be around people you can physically dominate.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (11 children)

I’ve already expressly said I don’t even use locker rooms. Men are monsters. Trans women as a particular thing that they hate can never be safe around them. And no you can’t be sexist against men any more than you can be racist against white people.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible. Sexism against men is possible, but it doesn't have as much authoritative weight behind it as the institutionalized sexism against women. Feminism not the liberal feminism bullshit but actual feminism is about separating personality from sex. Little boys can be affectionate, empathetic, emotional and caring. (There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there who grow up to be fantastic men) Little girls can be stoic, tough and domineering. Your sex is not your destiny, you could have any personality under the sun, we're all humans doing the best we can. Neither sex is inferior to the other, but we are very different physically and we need to account for those differences in law. Most behavior differences can be attributed to nurture, there may be some innate personality differences, but that would be very difficult to separate from cultural influence.

I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

I don't know if this will help you feel better about men, but a very low percentage of men are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. Many violent offenders also have mental health issues which is unfortunate. We really need to do a better job of taking care of the mentally ill in society. The 1% of the population accountable for 63% of all violent crime convictions

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible.

Hardly. Monsters don’t have to be stupid. Exploitation and using others can let them run a society without empathy just fine.

There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there

Sure

who grow up to be fantastic men

And here we disagree

I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

Only if they thought they would get caught. Most people hate trans people. The ones who don’t are trans or just think of us as a fun flavor of gay (like Ru Paul does). Men are just more violent in part because they are taught to be in part because testosterone is basically concentrated evil.

Yeah you do have more faith in men than me. Mine is zero. I don’t trust men. I’m attracted to them but would never date one because that would entail the idiotic move of being alone with one as a trans woman.

Women are just better than men. You won’t change my mind about the fact that men are monsters .

[–]Juniperius 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Plenty of men at this spa seemed willing to help the guy who may or may not be a transwoman, none were willing to help the women who were being put in danger by him. Did you watch the videos? Do you think Mr. Woke Moustache is a monster who would murder you? What about all the manarchists who attacked the women protesting?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

men are dangerous wherever they are. They are just hardest to escape when in a tiny single exit room with more than average privacy and

But you’re arguing for making men allowed to use the women’s room on a whim despite saying men are dangerous.

Why would letting men into women’s spaces make anyone safer?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

Actually I’m arguing we can’t be with men and need a place to go. And that trans women act with necessity. But I also argue that trans women aren’t men so I’m not saying men should be let in anywhere.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Transwomen are men and that’s fact, not a matter of opinion but go off.

Well, since you apparently agree that no transwoman has any business going into any space that is for actual women, you say third spaces aren’t acceptable because they out users, and using the correct sexed facilities is impossible because of a small risk of violence, are you suggesting that all transgender people should stay at home?

Is this really all just a front for you to piss and moan about not getting what you feel is just from the world?

You offer no answers, call women liars when they offer up facts and figures, consistently refuse to back up anything you claim because it’s clearly pulled from your ass, and insist we are all secretly spending hours of every single day thinking about how much we hate you in a grand conspiracy to ruin your life in particular.

Did you come here for anything other than to inflict self harm using other people as proxies?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

You conveniently leave off the fact that I’ve repeatedly said that neutral single occupancy facilities are actually a good option but enjoy you as hominem attacks and insults.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You yourself have also said they are no good because you’d be outed.

I didn’t insult you, you’d know if I did. For future reference it looms something like ‘xxxxxx you are a human dumpster and an idiot’ If I decide to insult you, the x’s would be your username.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

No I said that’s a problem with dedicated trans facilities. I’m advocating for neutral single occupancy facilities, not dedicated trans facilities.