Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

It was a typo. “Out themselves”

Also, that is one hell of a sexist assumption that men are incapable of empathy and women are somehow more capable of it.

If you say so. Men are monsters and I’m done softballing that stance. Women are capable of empathy. Men are monsters. That’s not a slam on women. They’re humans with emotions other than “hate” “lust” or “nothing”.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

So, we all "out" ourselves when we enter the bathroom. There can be no other way, unless you get your supposed wish and make every business build god-knows how many bathrooms. For a gym that fits one hundred people: how many separate facilities should they build?

Men are monsters and women are "capable" of empathy: sexist assumptions upon which gender is built by QT and by misogynists who want to keep women down. Every time I walk into a bathroom, I have to check to see if I think I'm going to get mugged, as I grew up in a violent city with a lot of crime. Fearing the mens room does not mean any one can then use the women's room. A adult gym locker room is not a violent place. Your perception of it is your perception. Using the women's room because they can't stop you and they can't beat you up has nothing to do with the empathy you imagine.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

It’s not sexist. Men are monsters. Woman are dynamic humans. You can’t be sexist against men so it isn’t sexist.

A men’s locker room is an isolate room with only men in it therefore no one to possible help you, restricted exits, and full of the worst kind of men fresh off a post workout testosterone boost. There isn’t a less safe place for a trans woman.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You are sexist, you make sexist assumptions about both men and women. You can't make up fake rules about not being able to be sexist against men, because sexism hems in men and women equally into their own pens. Trans people look at the pen they are not hemmed into according to their birth sex and somehow (editing the next part of this sentence to be more accurate) imagine they belong realize they would rather be in in the other pen, either to hide from being confronted with the reality of their inadequacy or to be predators of the AGP or other varieties, instead of realizing the pens are the problem. You are making shit up about mens locker rooms. You only feel safe in women's locker rooms because you have the same advantage over them that you fear, that makes you bullies. You don't want to be around people you fear but want to be around people you can physically dominate.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (11 children)

I’ve already expressly said I don’t even use locker rooms. Men are monsters. Trans women as a particular thing that they hate can never be safe around them. And no you can’t be sexist against men any more than you can be racist against white people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

And no you can’t be sexist against men any more than you can be racist against white people.

Of course people can be sexist against men and racist against white people. Lots of people such as mothers, teachers & certain women are sexist against boys & men. Lots of blacks, Asians, Arabs, "brown people" as well as white people are racist against white people.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Sexism like racism has a syetemic component. You can hate men but can’t be sexist against them. You can hate white people but not be racist against them. Because it lacks the element or systemic oppression.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The problem is not that this attitude is sexist against men, the problem is that it's sexist against women. C'mon, feminist analysis of "benevolent sexism" goes back at least a hundred years now, to Virginia Woolf's angel in the house. One of patriarchy's key tools is the insistence that men can't and mustn't be expected to control themselves, and women's job is to civilize men and take on the burden of being men's punching bags in order to prevent men from attacking each other. You aren't saying anything new here, just the same old sexist tropes that have kept people like you in control of people like me for fucking thousands of years. It's not women's job to tame Enkidu, we're not going to do it for you anymore.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

It’s not women’s job to civilize men. They should avoid them too.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Again you are putting a burden on women and letting men be whatever they want. The doctrine that men suck is bad for women. When you say that men are evil, or monsters, or lack empathy, or whatever you are talking about, you are letting them off the hook. You are holding women to a higher standard. This is not sexist against men, it is sexist against women. It is like how men pretend they are bad at doing laundry, so that women have to do the laundry. It means men are free, and women are not.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

I’m not holding women to a higher standard. Women are baseline, men are monsters. It’s not a “care for men” it’s “avoid them, they aren’t safe.

[–]Juniperius 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are absolving men of all responsibility. If you assert that men can't or shouldn't be expected to control themselves, then you are giving cover to the kind of people who say, well, women shouldn't go out at night if they don't want to get raped. This is antifeminist. I shouldn't be surprised, since I don't think I've ever seen you say anything that wasn't antifeminist, I guess.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Glad to see you don't just use the typical trans circular reason, but you instead use the full-on spherical reasoning. Men don't hat trans women, unless they are creeping on women and little girls. Men find trans women laughable or sad, one or the other. You are only in danger in a men's locker room if a criminal is doing something in there, same argument trans people make to women about predators in women's spaces, or if they are being an annoyance and wanting to get bet up. They guy swinging his dick around in the Wi Spa made the women go out and complain to the management-- which you confuse with empathy. If he was doing it the mens locker room it would have gone differently. You might see that as violence against a poor helpless trans woman but it would be simply getting what was asked for. There is a set of accepted behaviors in mens locker rooms and not calling attention to ones self or being annoying is something you might find difficult.

But I think we're done here, you might be circling your own void but we have been going in circles. That is not only in part because you've graduated from circular reasoning to spherical reasoning, but also we will have to agree to disagree. But, I do ask while you pretend to advocate for individual bathrooms in places like gyms please advocate for the barring of creepy AGPs putting on their ludicrous and creepy displays in women's rooms. or at least pretend to.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Men don't hat trans women, unless they are creeping on women and little girls.

This is just bit correct. Men hate trans women. Period.

getting what he asked for

Do you admit that trans women in men’s spaces are “asking to be hurt”?

I got jumped by a group of guys in a men’s room literally walking in to pee, I didn’t even talk to them. Men are monsters and being trapped with them in isolated spaces is “asking for violence” as you said. That’s why we can’t be there.

Even you know we aren’t safe there. You just blame the victim even in your hypothetical of us being attacked in a men’s space.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unless they are. Like by leering at someone. Which was my point.

to paraphrase your response about voyuerism: Only when they are. ... Which was my point.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible. Sexism against men is possible, but it doesn't have as much authoritative weight behind it as the institutionalized sexism against women. Feminism not the liberal feminism bullshit but actual feminism is about separating personality from sex. Little boys can be affectionate, empathetic, emotional and caring. (There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there who grow up to be fantastic men) Little girls can be stoic, tough and domineering. Your sex is not your destiny, you could have any personality under the sun, we're all humans doing the best we can. Neither sex is inferior to the other, but we are very different physically and we need to account for those differences in law. Most behavior differences can be attributed to nurture, there may be some innate personality differences, but that would be very difficult to separate from cultural influence.

I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

I don't know if this will help you feel better about men, but a very low percentage of men are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. Many violent offenders also have mental health issues which is unfortunate. We really need to do a better job of taking care of the mentally ill in society. The 1% of the population accountable for 63% of all violent crime convictions

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible.

Hardly. Monsters don’t have to be stupid. Exploitation and using others can let them run a society without empathy just fine.

There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there

Sure

who grow up to be fantastic men

And here we disagree

I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

Only if they thought they would get caught. Most people hate trans people. The ones who don’t are trans or just think of us as a fun flavor of gay (like Ru Paul does). Men are just more violent in part because they are taught to be in part because testosterone is basically concentrated evil.

Yeah you do have more faith in men than me. Mine is zero. I don’t trust men. I’m attracted to them but would never date one because that would entail the idiotic move of being alone with one as a trans woman.

Women are just better than men. You won’t change my mind about the fact that men are monsters .

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So I'm curious is there some self hatred going on there if you believe men are monsters? That kind of view just seems weird to me for a transwoman to have.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Oh I hate myself but I in no way think of myself as a man.