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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

“Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves”

Assuming you meant “out”

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed? (Left out violence since we are discussing third spaces as a protective measure, meaning we’d be dealing with preventing violence already by adding third spaces)

Meaning, why can’t we fight for protections for trans people against discrimination, and also rally for trans spaces so everyone- trans or not- is safe and comfortable? Truly the best bet for trans people is to stop trying to get everyone to accept them as women/men, and get people to accept them as trans. So how does it not make the most sense to fight to protect and make space for trans people, and make it safer for them to be out? Particularly when there are so many visibly trans trans people anyway?

Im not being snarky, I’m genuinely asking. I feel like any community that needs protections or established rights has to fight for them, but no other community fights for those things while also fighting to conceal their status as a member of that community.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed?

None materially, but that’s an ever present threat. Plus literally everyone will treat you better if they think you are cis. My life sucks because everyone knows I’m trans. I’d kill (metaphorically) to just be seen as normal.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay but the rest of my question was literally about focusing on making things better for trans people. So I’m asking, what if the goal was “safe spaces specifically for trans people, as well as establishing rights/protections for trans people against discrimination” (as we did for women. And lgb. And poc. And refugees. And immigrants. And… you get my point)? Meaning why not try to focus on making it easier/better for trans people to be openly trans, again particularly since many trans people don’t have much choice in the matter, instead of trying to protect them on the basis of being trans while also trying to help conceal that they are trans?

Like- you’d kill to be seen as normal, but if that’s not an option, shouldn’t we try to make things better for you and others in your shoes?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (95 children)

Sorry got clipped off there. Being “trans not men or women” is not going to lead to us living normal lives. It’s necessaarilly othering. Plus many might take offense and feel like shit to be told legally they aren’t real people.

Plus trans people will never be accepted. Like being visibly trans will never not suck. It’s not salvageable. Stealth will always be better for the stealth person.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

Being trans is not normal. That’s not an insult or anything- It’s just not. And being trans doesn’t mean you’re not a real person so idk what you’re talking about with that.

Being trans is an abnormal thing, it’s rare. Trans people have to accept that. Because even if you stealth, there’s always risk of being outed. Or of having to trust someone, even just a potential romantic partner, enough to tell them.

Idk what you think a “normal” life is, but if protections are in place that makes it easier for you to get a job, a home, and medical care when you need it, the rest is kind of on you, as far as what your life is made up of. Date people who are open to being with trans people. Make friends with people who don’t care, or embrace your community. Being out doesn’t mean you can’t live your life- I’m not really getting what you’d be kept from.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (93 children)

When you are trans you aren’t just a person. You being trans defines every interaction. And for the negative.

Immagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain. Everyone. Immagine what that’s like. Because that’s what life is for an out trans person. Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal and everyone will remind you of it every day even without getting into safety.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

I promise you the rest of us don’t care nearly as much as you think we do. most of us generally dgaf, we just don’t want to be forced to participate or be affected since it has nothing to do with us- that’s not disdain, it’s just not wanting to constantly gaslight ourselves, attempt to reprogram ourselves, or go along with things we know to be untrue. you said trans people are being told they aren’t “real” people- that’s what I referred to earlier. Being othered when you actually are « other » (you can’t deny being trans is an incredibly unique experience that the rest of us- all 99%- can not begin to relate to) is not the same as not being considered real. And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

I think seeing as how you have carte blanche to dismantle female rights, it’s a bit ridiculous to act as if everyone Everyone. looks at you with pity or disdain. If that were true, women would still have sex based rights, spaces, and sports. Why are people bending over backwards to accommodate trans people, even « trans » people, if everyone Everyone. looks on you with disdain? Why the cancel culture? Why rewrite lgb history? Why the newspeak? Why are people burning jkr’s books? Why the mass shut down of pro women/trans critical Reddit subs? Why a thousand other little and big things that contradict your narrative that everyone hates/pities trans people?

You’re actually not entitled to a life free of pity or disdain, unfortunately. So if people feeling sorry for you truly is the price you have to pay for women to maintain their rights and for you to obtain yours- that doesn’t exactly come across as a raw deal to me. Particularly since what you’re saying is a gross exaggeration anyway…

You « can’t be normal » because you refuse to attempt to treat your actual mental condition (and call any attempts at finding treatment conversion therapy) and you struggle to/can’t accept reality (not you you, the community in general, it seems). Don’t put that on everyone else, we have nothing to do with that. What even is “normal”? When you live a life having altered as much of yourself as you can the way someone does when they « transition », I don’t think you can really expect normalcy, at best you can hope for routine. By nature of being trans you have a very specific and distinct experience that nobody who isn’t trans can relate to. I don’t really see how that’s ever going to be « normal ». If you mean live a stereotype of a life, plenty of out trans people get married and have families and just Idk go to work and do whatever « normal » shit is every day. There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Im sorry, I just don’t think not wanting people to pity you or have what you consider disdain- but is more likely indifference and/or a lack of a sense of obligation to placate- is enough to justify undermining women’s rights instead of fighting for your own on the basis of what you literally are. It’s absurd and self serving to refuse a route that would benefit the majority of trans people because you want to be able to keep being trans a secret so more people might like you 🙄.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (49 children)

And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

They won’t no matter what. And it is a shameful thing that should be kept a secret if you can. Stealth is your only chance at a normal life.

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

Yeah I know if you don’t care we are treated like wretches.

There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Because they are stealth. You don’t get a life as an out trans person. No one will love you. You will struggle to fine even mediocre employment. You will exist and noone will care of you live or die. Stealth people get lives. We get … existences. Shit this isn’t even about me. I don’t pass. But I want others who might be able to to have a shot at a life worth living.

Humans are social creatures and if you are treated like a freak by everyone you interact with it effects you.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

I disagree. Trans people don't "have everything [they] have" because they're pitiable, or because nontrans people consider them pathetic and can only respond with pity.

I'll use your ugly stray dog analogy since I have irl experience with that. I've volunteered for many years with a regional dog rescue npo known for taking in "hard cases" (abuse, neglect, complex medical issues). I guarantee you that pity doesn't stabilize a starving dog or see a dog through months of treatment for heartworm infection -- I've done that particular task several times. It's empathy for the dog, and recognition of its dignity as a sentient being. Those are very, very different things than pity.

Not to be invasive, but your language sounds clinically depressed and self-despising.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I do hate myself but that’s not the point.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It may not be the topical point, but I sincerely think it's affecting the way you're framing your assertions here. Your GD-influenced observations are subjectively real, certainly. But they can't constrain objective reality or reliably assign motive (e.g., pity) to others.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Im sorry, Im not sure how to respond, the self loathing dripping in your comment is a bit overwhelming for me…

I always thought trans people were individuals with varied life experiences. I forgot you speak for all of the lived experiences of every trans person to ever exist. And none, none at all, not even quite a few of the out trans people that I know or have met personally, not even the openly trans celebrities, not even 1 individual out of the estimated 1.5 million- has ever been able to live a normal (again- what is normal?) life. They’re all just liars. And so are their partners and friends and children and families and coworkers and it’s all just one big conspiracy set up just so we can claim that it’s possible. Just to give false hope so people will keep transitioning and Big Pharma can rake in that dough and we can sterilize people for population control.

You want people to be able to- even feel like they should- lie to everyone in their lives. You want them to never actually experience being loved and accepted for who they are, not even by themselves. Think what you want about yourself but it’s so fucking wack to push that kind of life and mentality on an entire community. You could advocate for making the world a better place for all trans people, not just the ones who pass, but you’d rather disregard the majority for the few who have the chance to stealth? Because you think perpetuating the idea that concealing the truth from as many people as possible is the only way a trans person can be happy? I feel like I’d just spend my whole life wondering what would happen if someone found out, I’d be miserable and looking over my shoulder all the time. But what do I know, I guess.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (44 children)

You can disagree if you want but life sucks for out trans people. If you want happiness your shoot for stealth. Otherwise you transition to numb the pain of Dysphoria and deal with the fact that society will see you as a freak and noone will ever love you. That’s life for trans people. You hit the lotto and go stealth or you have a shitty life period. But it’s still better than the dysphoria.

It’s a journey to accept that we’d get there quicker without false hope. “Acceptance” won’t ever happen. We need protections because people hate us and we need facilities access. But lying to us about hope and singing Kumbiah isn’t going to help anyone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can disagree if you want but life sucks for out trans people. If you want happiness your shoot for stealth. Otherwise you transition to numb the pain of Dysphoria and deal with the fact that society will see you as a freak and noone will ever love you. That’s life for trans people. You hit the lotto and go stealth or you have a shitty life period.

Huh? Jan Morris, who went trans in midlife in the early 70s after fathering 5 children & died in November at age 94, said that nothing untoward happened to Jan coz of being trans & out. Morris got a best-selling book & many awards out of being trans. Jan's wife who married Jan as James stayed with Jan to the end of Jan's life, raised their children single-handedly & was handmaiden to all of Jan's career & personal ambitions.

Renee Richards, who went trans age 43 in the early 70s after being married to a woman & fathering a child & is now 88, seems to have lived a happy, fulfilled life since then. In 1975, Richards sued for the right to play women's professional tennis - & won right off the bat.

Jennifer Finney Boylan, now age 63, has only gotten accolades, awards, writing gigs, a column in the NY Times & tenure at an Ivy League US university since becoming openly trans. Boylan's wife from before Boylan went trans, & the mother of their two children, also has stuck by Boylan & been Boylan's primary support throughout. But Boylan's wife has always done Boylan's bidding by never daring to put herself or her own dreams or ambitions on equal footing with her trans spouse.

Debbie Hayton's wife & children have stuck by Hayton, putting their own feelings aside so as not to interfere with Hayton's brave & stunning narrative.

The NY Times recently profiled a person who lived until 60 as a man & who in COVID lockdown came out as a trans woman. The reaction from this person's employer was a major promotion - & applause & support from everyone else in this person's social & professional circles.

I could list dozens of others like this. You are talking shite.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

You have no concept of life for the average trans women.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Cool.

I’ll be sure to inform the people i referenced that they are lying to themselves and are in fact not happy and doing well, that everyone in their lives that they think love and care for them are pretending out of pity, and that they are in fact drab sacks of misery and should adjust accordingly.

Im sure they’ll be confused at first, but its best to inform them now so they can figure out how to be unhappy.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You really need to move. I live in a liberal college town in a red state and I know literally dozens of trans-umbrella people, who are out and proud, have jobs and active social lives and in quite a few cases partners and children. Their lives are fine.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

No, they aren’t. They pretend it is but no one can be happy or normal being an out trans person. It’s a shit life.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

I actually worked with an out transwoman who was living as far as I could tell a very normal life hanging out with us outside of work too just like any other run of the mill person. He was visibly and behaviorally male, but decently androgynous. The key was that he respected my boundaries so we got along just fine. In person I would refer to him as she out of courtesy, much in the same way I avoid using the Lord's name in vain when I'm hanging out with Christians, but when I'm no longer in Christian company the Lord's name gets quite a thrashing.

I've also worked with a transman that was clearly female at first glance. She was also living a normal life just like any other coworker going out and hanging out with friends in her free time. My coworkers gave me a quiet heads up that she was trans so I could make sure to refer to her as "he" to avoid upsetting her. That's generally what happens for trans people who don't pass in the workplace at least. Their coworkers discretely give the new hire a heads up and more often than not out of courtesy they go along with it like I did out of politeness more than anything. It was a bit awkward at first, because forcing my brain to refer to a woman as he took some extra effort like saying the color of a word out loud when it says a different color.

Weird becomes normal if you're exposed to it enough times. I grew up under a conservative religious rock and didn't know about gay people until I was a teenager. My first thought was wait that's an option? Now it's just normal to me. A dude talks about his husband and I react the same way as if he was talking about his wife. You meet enough gay people and it just becomes a meh fact about them like their hair color. That's how gay people got more acceptance they came out of the closet, so society saw that they were boring run of the mill people like the rest of us with one small difference. It's hard to hate gay people when you find out Uncle Joe is gay and Aunt Lydia is a lesbian and so on.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (33 children)

Right there. You are talking about people you seem to have had cordial relationships with and you misgender them, call them religious, and all but say you only referred to them as who they are to their face because of pity.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

It’s just odd to me- in my head Im presenting the best (realistic) case scenario: protections and acceptance as trans, and you’re just like- nah, leave us in this in between stage with all this tension and discomfort on all sides.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people. Trying to get people to see TW as women and TM as men has gotten mixed results to say the least, you can’t fathom that we might accept and support you as what you are, you don’t want us to fight for safe spaces for you because you don’t want to be outed, you want single occupancy but think it’s not realistically going to be implemented- like what the fuck do you want? Lol what do you hope for? Because frankly you’re painting this incredibly dark picture where no matter what you’re just kind of assed out in all areas of life.

I don’t have a point or a question Im just lost at this point lol

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Learned helplessness coupled with an expectation on others to solve any and all discomforts in life is what’s ruining these peoples lives, not imagined pity.

Any solution that is not all women stepping in to solve male pain is unacceptable, impossible, and very cruel. Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

Yep.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (37 children)

Acceptance won’t happen. Rights are needed largely because of that.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people

Correct

At least if they accept we are women (and trans men are men) they won’t think we are Wretched freaks. Which is what you want. “Stop hiding that you are freaks and let everyone hate you openly” that’s not a plan that helps us.

No one will ever accept trans people As anything more than circus freaks if the narrative of “trans people aren’t like normal people” is the refrain. Also you are asking us to abandon our identities and take on new ones. I don’t think of myself as “neither a man or a woman” I think of myself as a woman with a birth defect. Telling people I’m not a woman would be me lying.

I’m not worried about being outed. Everyone knows what I am. I see how nonpassing trans people get treated Nd I want better for others.

Noone would pay for dedicated trans spaces. Absent a legal mandate anyway. I would love single occupancy as a standard but again who is paying for that?

what the fuck do you hope for

Death mostly anymore

painting a dark picture where you are asses out in all areas of life

You are finally getting it. Being an obvious trans woman sucks. It’s better than the pretransition dysphoria but it’s a miserable life.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Yeah…

How’s that whole « accepting you as women » thing working out? Because it seems to not be going so well. Which is why I asked what I asked in the first place.

Im not saying the refrain is « trans people aren’t normal ». Im saying the fact of the matter is that being trans is not a normal thing to be. It’s just not. It’s rare. You know this. I didn’t say it made you a freak, im saying it does you no favors to not acknowledge that being trans is an incredibly unique experience, and I honestly don’t know how people who aren’t trans can relate to it. Which is exactly why the whole TWAW mantra is not exactly working out. TWAW depending on who you ask- and even some of the people who agree qualify that, TW are trans as a fact.

How you think of yourself and what’s reality are two different things. You can tell yourself you’re a woman with a birth defect- that doesn’t mean you actually are a woman or were born with a birth defect. Being male is not a birth defect. I know I know you hate men so to you it is- that’s your opinion, it’s still fact that it’s not a birth defect to be a male just because you wish you weren’t.

I’m not asking you to abandon your identity- you can’t even explain what it means to identify as a woman anyway lol. Im asking you not to undermine and diminish the truth and experience of half the world’s population by claiming it as your own. You’re a transwoman, that comes with its own set of experiences that no woman will ever relate to. And we have our own experiences that you can’t relate to. It’s disrespectful to ignore that, and it doesn’t make that truth go away.

You say you want better for others but it seems like you don’t- you just want those lucky enough to pass to be able to stealth, you seem to have no problem leaving non passing trans people in the lurch. I don’t really I know what to say about that other than that communities advocate better for themselves when they have each other’s backs…

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (35 children)

Things will never be good for nonpassing trans people but they aren’t getting better by making them some unrelatable other.

You are saying not just accept but encourage people to think of us other than we think of ourselves. “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”.

What you are asking is for us to become basically American Hijra. And life isn’t Awesome for Hijra if you weren’t aware.

I’m a woman so I want people to think of me as a woman. They usually don’t which is depressing and sucks but won’t be improved by telling them not to.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Im not saying to go around telling people that being trans is abnormal WTF

Im saying that trans people need to be able to acknowledge to themselves that being trans is a rarity that most people can’t relate to. And maybe they should keep that in mind when considering what they’re asking of others, and what they’re trying to tell us is true.

You’re saying “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”

Im saying “ ”

Im saying nothing.

you don’t have to say shit. You don’t have to tell people shit- unless it matters.

And people who it will matter to would either be professionals who shouldn’t be just randomly telling people they met a trans person or someone in your personal life who should be told (like a romantic partner). If someone mistakes a TW for a woman and the result is not that that someone gets raped by deception or the rights of a female aren’t undermined who gives a fuck? And if you don’t pass but someone is willing to use preferred pronouns and call you a woman it’s not like I’m saying they should be stopped.

All I said was that I think it’s better to advocate for spaces for trans people and that, because the ability to stealth is both not a guarantee and can be taken from someone, maybe it’s better to consider finding ways to make things better for out trans people, So people don’t have to stealth in their first place.

the trans community as a whole can advocate better for themselves by acknowledging some unavoidable truths and accepting that the rest of the word doesn’t think like them- so trying to convince or force us to think like you ain’t gonna work. It’s not working, masks. It’s really not going well, this current narrative is backfiring. And it’s backfiring because you cannot and will never be able to successfully convert the whole world or even your whole country to your way of thinking. You’re losing allies and upsetting people who didn’t give a fuck before as well as still having to deal with the people who actually do just hate trans people just because

That’s really all I’m saying- You can’t control how people see you or think of you, no matter how much it means to you. You can advocate for protections so that regardless of how someone thinks of you, you are safe and have equality (equality doesn’t mean inclusion, acceptance, or getting everything you want)

Im Also saying acknowledging the reality of the situation rather than pushing what you’d like it to be may actually help put out the fires on the bridges the trans community is currently burning

Im not saying blatantly out yourself, I’m saying it is possible to work towards getting to a point where if you are known as trans, people don’t care

Every community has had to do this- it’s a tough comparison because being trans is so unique- but women had to convince men we weren’t hysterical harlots who would ruin the world if we had equality, poc had to convince white people not to- well a lot of things…, LGB had to convince heteros that we weren’t mentally ill, depraved and that we deserved to not be illegal, and then that we deserved equal rights… obviously there’s still work to be done in all of those communities, but great strides have been made and my point is just that even if you’re right and everyone does currently just look at trans people as freaks or whatever you said, that’s kind of true all the time in these types is situations- we judge other groups and even discriminate against them until we learn to do better. You can see it all through out history. You don’t overcome that by perpetuating the idea that what you are should be kept secret because it’s shameful. All that does is tell the rest of us to agree with you.

But you can’t overcome it by forcing your beliefs on others, either.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (33 children)

It is shameful. It’s bad to be trans. Everyone agrees. Shit you agree. Advocating for trans people to be seen as some abnormal other doesn’t help anyone. If we are just saying we are women, the conflict ends in peace if we win. Pushing the narrative that we are some phantom other doesn’t have a positive endpoint, it just convinces people we ate some phantom other who don’t belong anywhere if it’s successful.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Imagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain.

I mean, being a woman who rejects femininity, I'm pretty used to being treated as a failure at anything other than making men's dicks go up. I hear talks of how subhuman women are every day, including from trans communities who are currently pushing back decades of progress women have made for the sake of their validation.

Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal

Well, yeah, you're in a group that's getting plastic surgeries and amputations, creating an artificial hormonal imbalance and spending a lifetime on hormones not meant for your body for no reason other than having a mental illness that makes you think a healthy, normal body you have is "wrong" and "disgusting". Even the trans people recognise that passing this off as having a male or female body isn't going to pass, hence why so many progressive positions revolve not around acceptance, but tricking people that you're really the opposite sex as effectively as possible. Imagine if gay people only insisted their partners legally be treated as the opposite sex so they could feel "normal", or if women had to amputate their breasts and take testosterone to stop being treated as subhuman...Oh wait, that one's already happening.