Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (247 children)

… the concept of being uncomfortable around male bodies is something that is understood and sympathized with- but only if you’re a male yourself?

It’s not just comfort. It’s safety. If I go into a men’s locker room I will at least have a higher than average chance of being physically assaulted. Why can’t you at least acknowledge that as a motivation for not wanting to be in men’s spaces? Men are dangerous to trans women. Being in an enclosed and isolated space with them more so. Can you at least acknowledge that? You know i prefer single occupancy spaces anyway but you know that at minimum some trans women don’t want to be in men’s spaces because they are worried about physical harm.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Men are dangerous to women and other men. That is acknowledged, but violating women's consent, boundaries and bodily autonomy is never okay. Not wanting to be in men's spaces does not give male bodied people the right to violate female bodied people's spaces.

If a certain subset of men/male bodied people are especially unsafe around other men the solution is finding a 3rd space for them or a more creative solution to protect them, not sacrificing women's rights.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I’m for single occupancy neutral spaces as I’ve said a million times. My point is it’s about safety not just “being uncomfortable” around men.

Build third spaces and I’ll argue we should be using them. Until then people have to get by.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

By getting by I hope you don't mean males violating women's consent by using women's single sex spaces. A particular trans individual not feeling safe in the men's room does not justify violating women's sexual boundaries, bodily autonomy and consent.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (107 children)

As I’ve said so many times- that can all be true, it has nothing to do with women or girls and we (and our rights and spaces) should have nothing whatsoever to do with any solutions TW come up with for their problems. I also don’t agree that men in general are dangerous to TW, and I don’t think you’ve proven that they are. Can they and have they harmed TW? Yes. But there’s no reason to assume or pretend that thousands of other males are just running around looking for TW to bash.

You can want to use female spaces all you want and for whatever reasons you want- it’s still undermining female rights and robbing them of their safe spaces.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, as far as the Wii Spa thing specifically, that man had the option of a unisex floor. He chose to cause discomfort to women and little girls instead.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (105 children)

You said that the reason they didn’t want to use men’s spaces was perversion of being uncomfortable around men’s bodies. That is a false dichotomy leaving out the actual reason which is safety.

I also don’t agree that men in general are dangerous to TW.

This is just wrong. Men are responsible for basically all the physical harm to trans women. I don’t feel safe alone with a cis man ever and no smart trans woman does. They hurt us. It’s not even a question.

You can want to use female spaces all you want and for whatever reasons you want- it’s still undermining female rights and robbing them of their safe spaces.

If that’s your point, say that don’t deny our safety concerns and call us perverts. Just say “our comfort is more important than your safety”. That’s what you are saying so just say it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (61 children)

No no no- I said they don’t feel comfortable in male spaces, and I acknowledged that there are some creeps who just want to be in female spaces (hence the “could be” in my comment). I’m saying it’s both, and we don’t know who’s who until someone behaves inappropriately.

Some of you are perverts. Some of us are, too. That’s life, buddy.

And yeah, I think the rights, comfort and safety of females should be prioritized over any and all males in any female specific space. Because that’s the point of female specific spaces.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (60 children)

Not being comfortable and not being safe aren’t the same thing. We aren’t safe in men’s spaces. That’s why we don’t go there. If I went into a men’s locker room I legitimately might be killed. That’s the point.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Statistically you’re less likely to be murdered by men than the women you’re lecturing about safety. Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself. No one here believes your victim narrative except yourself.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Uh, are we really going to act like feminine men being threatened and bullied by other men is a hard pill to swallow?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Uh, no?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (31 children)

Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself.

This is wildly untrue and you should be ashamed.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

🙄

Transwomen have a male pattern of criminality and a lower murder rate than the general population. The cats out of the bag.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 9 fun1 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 9 fun -  (27 children)

No.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

You know what, you’re right. I thought the data was convincing, but you’ve totally changed my mind with your imagination, wishful thinking, and declarative statements.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s actually quite easy to verify.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Figures then, please. I’d like the stats you have backing up your accusation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to. Doesn’t mean it’s okay to disrupt female spaces.

Who are you to tell women and girls that a male presence in a space that is not supposed to have any males in it is safe? You don’t get to decide for us if we feel safe or not, but it’s not just about safety. You’re infringing on our rights.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (23 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to.

My point was literally to get you to acknowledge it’s about safety not your false dichotomy.

As you well know I prefer neutral spaces and don’t use women’s spaces at all other than bathrooms. Not because I think I shouldn’t be able to, I just don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable.

So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after, can’t go to a spa, can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels) can’t try on clothes, a bunch of other stuff. But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life. Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

“So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after,”

Oh no, you have to put a bit of effort into your scheduling so you don’t disrupt someone else’s rights or cause discomfort. Poor baby. How you suffer.

“can’t go to a spa,”

Plenty of spas have unisex spaces. Do some research. But spas are luxuries, not a right.

“can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels)”

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

“can’t try on clothes,”

Changing rooms when you’re buying/trying on clothes are individual. And even if you had to change in the men’s section, there’s an attendant there to make sure people don’t steal.

“a bunch of other stuff.”

And I’m sure there are ready solutions to the bunch of other stuff too

“But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life.”

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

“Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?”

Nope. I see options and ways around. I also see the need to act like there’s no way to get by without shitting allover females, despite that not being true.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

Sure. I’ll give you there are bad actors in every group. But safety is the justification at core.

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

They requiring showing before using the pool most places. That’s the issue.

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

Okay this is pointless.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not all pools require showering, call around, find one that doesn’t. Or make a friend who has a pool or lives in a complex that has a pool, or move to a complex that has a pool, Idk but pools are not a right. You have the option, whether you feel safe taking it or not, to shower in male spaces. I understand why you wouldn’t- the option does exist, objectively.

And even if some situations don’t have simple solutions- some, many even, do. That’s my point. There are ways around a lot of these issues. And there are places you can go where you don’t have to change or be naked (like a fuck ton of places. Most places, actually). You gave three examples and only had a rebuttal for one- clearly there are some instances where there are ways around, that just require effort on your part.

There are plenty of things that vulnerable people choose not to do or feel like we can’t do because we are afraid for our safety. That’s life when your vulnerable, unfortunately. I wish it were better, but it’s not. I can choose not to go somewhere or do something because I’m afraid I’ll get hurt- I still could go, it’s me choosing not to. You could go to a pool and shower in the men’s room, you choose not to (again, I get why- but the option does exist, even if you think it’s not a viable one). That’s not us keeping you from being able to participate in public life- that’s you deciding not to do something because you feel it’s unsafe. It’s not women’s fault you feel unsafe. women literally have nothing to do with the situation other than you deciding to use our safe spaces as refuge. But when you take someone’s space against their will, you’re not in the right. So because you want to have fun, and do things that are not necessities or rights, women have to just lose their right to sex based spaces, because you don’t have unisex spaces all the time? That’s fair? Why?

Everyone should be able to live life freely and do as they please- as long as it doesn’t cause harm. But it feels like we’re now discussing whether women should have their rights or transwomen should be allowed to go swimming and to the gym and I just don’t know that I think getting your body bikini ready for the summer is enough reason to shit on the women’s rights movement.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is not a human right. Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is a fucking luxury.

You refuse to back up claims that transwomen are more endangered by other men than women are and then jump to acting like getting to swim in a pool is a necessity you’re being denied.

How can you possibly not see how ridiculous your arguments are?

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You are creating the false dichotomy. You say you fear getting beat up, now killed, in a mens locker room. The false dichotomy is therefore you must use the womens room, when that is also inappropriate and this is not about your sense of safety but about voyerism and indecent exposure and a dude swinging his dick in front of little girls. You are making this topic about you when you should go back up and look at the topic title.

Ask for trans spaces, oh but that's not validating. Reality is not validating. How do you propose to keep creeps and liars out of women's spaces? I propose keep sex segregated spaces sex segregated. If you need a trans space, ask for it. Yesterdays riot was not about your safety, it was to shut up and intimidate women so that they accommodate creeps swinging their dicks around in little girls faces. If you think that is about you, then you are dangerous and should not be dealt with politely.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

I’m literally openly for single occupancy neutral spaces. Trans spaces are an issue because they force us to put ourselves and the only true escape from trans prejudice is stealth. My point has never Been we should be using all women’s spaces it’s that we can’t use men’s spaces.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think that is something I'd like to hear more people clammoring for instead of the "we just want to pee, in front of women and little girls" line. But: a gym that can fit say 100 people comfortably should have how many single occupancy spaces? There's the problem. A third room for trans women might be the best solution.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

I think I get what you’re saying so I’ll clarify-

  1. Im saying that the law is in place so as not to discriminate against gender identity; that doesn’t mean that for TW it can’t be about safety, validation, or yes even perversion. I just meant that this law seems to be in place more so for the sake of the sense of self of some males than safety measures.

  2. Men are responsible for most harm. Period. Against women. Against kids. Against TW and TM. This doesn’t mean that men are on some TW Bashing Rampage. It means sometimes the victim of a violent man is a TW. And that happens much less often than it does to other people.

  3. Love how you tell me that women aren’t unsafe, they just may feel unsafe or uncomfortable- but I should care that you feel unsafe around men? Why does how you feel about what could possibly happen matter more than what countless women and girls fear may possibly happen?

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Seems to me what circling is saying is that because men are responsible for most harm & violence against women, kids, other men & trans-identified people of both sexes, women & girls should have to cede their rights to spaces that exclude all males.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well that is the only fair and logical conclusion /s

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (39 children)

And that happens much less often than it does to other people.

I absolutely and fervently disagree with this.

3 - I’m talking about actual safety. Men hurt trans women way more than trans women hurt natal women. It’s not about feeling safe Its about BEING safe.

But again. My preference is single occupancy neutral spaces.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

You can disagree all you want, if you can’t prove that other males are harming TW in droves your disagreement isn’t worth much lol

It does happen, but there’s no reason (Other than you lacking any other argument) to pretend that any time a male sees a transwoman hes just gonna snap and beat the shit out of them. It just isn’t true. Violence happens to all demographics, that doesn’t justify dismantling the rights that a separate group worked so hard to obtain for themselves.

I understand you prefer single occupancy, that doesn’t make using female spaces fair to females when you don’t have access to single occupancy options.

I don’t think it’s fair or even wise to establish a precedent for dismantling the hard earned rights of one group for the benefit of another.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (37 children)

It isn’t provable. Media and police report violence against trans women as violence against gay men which deflate numbers for one. For 2 we don’t trust police so all but the most serious injuries go unreported. A lot of trans women I know have been attacked. Not one has called the cops.

This is why I should just stop responding to you. You deny and downplay us being harmed and deny that we are left with bad choices. It’s easy to have no empathy for a group when you pretend they aren’t harmed.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

I’m thinking, women, homosexuals, and trans people often get harmed for being what they are, and some report, some don’t. So all we can do is analyze what does get reported.

I’ve said so many fucking times that I know violence does happen- my point is always going to be that it has nothing to do with women and wr should be left out of it entirely. Like it’s absurd to me that you’re acting like I said TW aren’t ever harmed. I’ve acknowledged they are several times. What I’m saying is that you’re acting as if the average man is just going to go ape shit on you for no reason other than you pissing- that’s not true, and you haven’t shown that it is. I’m not dismissing violence against TW- I’m saying I don’t think there’s any basis for acting as if you’re more likely to encounter someone who will attack you than not.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (35 children)

I’m not taking this further. I’ve literally been beaten up by random men specifically for pissing in a men’s room. Like not hypothetical. It happened to me personally. So yeah men just fuck up trans women for no reason and we should all live in fear of them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

I understand what you’re saying- I’m saying you got beat up by violent men, that happened to be random to you yes- but unless the time you got beat up was literally the only time you ever used the men’s room after you started transitioning (as opposed to being the last time, as you’ve stated before)- that kind of proves that not every random man, even not most random men, are going to attack transwomen. I’m not saying I don’t understand not wanting to risk it- I’m saying it’s not true that most men will harm TW.

It’s gonna happen, yes it is and I acknowledge that. There are violent and hateful men out there. That doesn’t mean that most men are going to go on transphobic attacks.

It is actually fully possible to acknowledge that something can occur (and has occurred), while also acknowledging that most men aren’t slipping into a violent psychotic state at the mere sight of a transwoman.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (130 children)

then ask for trans spaces. None of the violence you cite makes you a woman nor does it make the women's room a sanctuary for you from male violence. High school locker rooms are violent, gym lockers for adults not so. I've seen weird shit in lockers at gyms but no violence. This isn't high school.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (129 children)

Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves. That’s bad. I advicate where possible for single occupancy neutral spaces but also those would never happen large scale without a government mandate.

And men are dangerous wherever they are. They are just hardest to escape when in a tiny single exit room with more than average privacy and assurances a woman ( a person capable of empathy unlike men) will be there to help or call for help.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

“Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves”

Assuming you meant “out”

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed? (Left out violence since we are discussing third spaces as a protective measure, meaning we’d be dealing with preventing violence already by adding third spaces)

Meaning, why can’t we fight for protections for trans people against discrimination, and also rally for trans spaces so everyone- trans or not- is safe and comfortable? Truly the best bet for trans people is to stop trying to get everyone to accept them as women/men, and get people to accept them as trans. So how does it not make the most sense to fight to protect and make space for trans people, and make it safer for them to be out? Particularly when there are so many visibly trans trans people anyway?

Im not being snarky, I’m genuinely asking. I feel like any community that needs protections or established rights has to fight for them, but no other community fights for those things while also fighting to conceal their status as a member of that community.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed?

None materially, but that’s an ever present threat. Plus literally everyone will treat you better if they think you are cis. My life sucks because everyone knows I’m trans. I’d kill (metaphorically) to just be seen as normal.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay but the rest of my question was literally about focusing on making things better for trans people. So I’m asking, what if the goal was “safe spaces specifically for trans people, as well as establishing rights/protections for trans people against discrimination” (as we did for women. And lgb. And poc. And refugees. And immigrants. And… you get my point)? Meaning why not try to focus on making it easier/better for trans people to be openly trans, again particularly since many trans people don’t have much choice in the matter, instead of trying to protect them on the basis of being trans while also trying to help conceal that they are trans?

Like- you’d kill to be seen as normal, but if that’s not an option, shouldn’t we try to make things better for you and others in your shoes?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (95 children)

Sorry got clipped off there. Being “trans not men or women” is not going to lead to us living normal lives. It’s necessaarilly othering. Plus many might take offense and feel like shit to be told legally they aren’t real people.

Plus trans people will never be accepted. Like being visibly trans will never not suck. It’s not salvageable. Stealth will always be better for the stealth person.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

Being trans is not normal. That’s not an insult or anything- It’s just not. And being trans doesn’t mean you’re not a real person so idk what you’re talking about with that.

Being trans is an abnormal thing, it’s rare. Trans people have to accept that. Because even if you stealth, there’s always risk of being outed. Or of having to trust someone, even just a potential romantic partner, enough to tell them.

Idk what you think a “normal” life is, but if protections are in place that makes it easier for you to get a job, a home, and medical care when you need it, the rest is kind of on you, as far as what your life is made up of. Date people who are open to being with trans people. Make friends with people who don’t care, or embrace your community. Being out doesn’t mean you can’t live your life- I’m not really getting what you’d be kept from.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (93 children)

When you are trans you aren’t just a person. You being trans defines every interaction. And for the negative.

Immagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain. Everyone. Immagine what that’s like. Because that’s what life is for an out trans person. Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal and everyone will remind you of it every day even without getting into safety.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

I promise you the rest of us don’t care nearly as much as you think we do. most of us generally dgaf, we just don’t want to be forced to participate or be affected since it has nothing to do with us- that’s not disdain, it’s just not wanting to constantly gaslight ourselves, attempt to reprogram ourselves, or go along with things we know to be untrue. you said trans people are being told they aren’t “real” people- that’s what I referred to earlier. Being othered when you actually are « other » (you can’t deny being trans is an incredibly unique experience that the rest of us- all 99%- can not begin to relate to) is not the same as not being considered real. And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

I think seeing as how you have carte blanche to dismantle female rights, it’s a bit ridiculous to act as if everyone Everyone. looks at you with pity or disdain. If that were true, women would still have sex based rights, spaces, and sports. Why are people bending over backwards to accommodate trans people, even « trans » people, if everyone Everyone. looks on you with disdain? Why the cancel culture? Why rewrite lgb history? Why the newspeak? Why are people burning jkr’s books? Why the mass shut down of pro women/trans critical Reddit subs? Why a thousand other little and big things that contradict your narrative that everyone hates/pities trans people?

You’re actually not entitled to a life free of pity or disdain, unfortunately. So if people feeling sorry for you truly is the price you have to pay for women to maintain their rights and for you to obtain yours- that doesn’t exactly come across as a raw deal to me. Particularly since what you’re saying is a gross exaggeration anyway…

You « can’t be normal » because you refuse to attempt to treat your actual mental condition (and call any attempts at finding treatment conversion therapy) and you struggle to/can’t accept reality (not you you, the community in general, it seems). Don’t put that on everyone else, we have nothing to do with that. What even is “normal”? When you live a life having altered as much of yourself as you can the way someone does when they « transition », I don’t think you can really expect normalcy, at best you can hope for routine. By nature of being trans you have a very specific and distinct experience that nobody who isn’t trans can relate to. I don’t really see how that’s ever going to be « normal ». If you mean live a stereotype of a life, plenty of out trans people get married and have families and just Idk go to work and do whatever « normal » shit is every day. There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Im sorry, I just don’t think not wanting people to pity you or have what you consider disdain- but is more likely indifference and/or a lack of a sense of obligation to placate- is enough to justify undermining women’s rights instead of fighting for your own on the basis of what you literally are. It’s absurd and self serving to refuse a route that would benefit the majority of trans people because you want to be able to keep being trans a secret so more people might like you 🙄.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (49 children)

And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

They won’t no matter what. And it is a shameful thing that should be kept a secret if you can. Stealth is your only chance at a normal life.

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

Yeah I know if you don’t care we are treated like wretches.

There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Because they are stealth. You don’t get a life as an out trans person. No one will love you. You will struggle to fine even mediocre employment. You will exist and noone will care of you live or die. Stealth people get lives. We get … existences. Shit this isn’t even about me. I don’t pass. But I want others who might be able to to have a shot at a life worth living.

Humans are social creatures and if you are treated like a freak by everyone you interact with it effects you.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

I disagree. Trans people don't "have everything [they] have" because they're pitiable, or because nontrans people consider them pathetic and can only respond with pity.

I'll use your ugly stray dog analogy since I have irl experience with that. I've volunteered for many years with a regional dog rescue npo known for taking in "hard cases" (abuse, neglect, complex medical issues). I guarantee you that pity doesn't stabilize a starving dog or see a dog through months of treatment for heartworm infection -- I've done that particular task several times. It's empathy for the dog, and recognition of its dignity as a sentient being. Those are very, very different things than pity.

Not to be invasive, but your language sounds clinically depressed and self-despising.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Im sorry, Im not sure how to respond, the self loathing dripping in your comment is a bit overwhelming for me…

I always thought trans people were individuals with varied life experiences. I forgot you speak for all of the lived experiences of every trans person to ever exist. And none, none at all, not even quite a few of the out trans people that I know or have met personally, not even the openly trans celebrities, not even 1 individual out of the estimated 1.5 million- has ever been able to live a normal (again- what is normal?) life. They’re all just liars. And so are their partners and friends and children and families and coworkers and it’s all just one big conspiracy set up just so we can claim that it’s possible. Just to give false hope so people will keep transitioning and Big Pharma can rake in that dough and we can sterilize people for population control.

You want people to be able to- even feel like they should- lie to everyone in their lives. You want them to never actually experience being loved and accepted for who they are, not even by themselves. Think what you want about yourself but it’s so fucking wack to push that kind of life and mentality on an entire community. You could advocate for making the world a better place for all trans people, not just the ones who pass, but you’d rather disregard the majority for the few who have the chance to stealth? Because you think perpetuating the idea that concealing the truth from as many people as possible is the only way a trans person can be happy? I feel like I’d just spend my whole life wondering what would happen if someone found out, I’d be miserable and looking over my shoulder all the time. But what do I know, I guess.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

It’s just odd to me- in my head Im presenting the best (realistic) case scenario: protections and acceptance as trans, and you’re just like- nah, leave us in this in between stage with all this tension and discomfort on all sides.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people. Trying to get people to see TW as women and TM as men has gotten mixed results to say the least, you can’t fathom that we might accept and support you as what you are, you don’t want us to fight for safe spaces for you because you don’t want to be outed, you want single occupancy but think it’s not realistically going to be implemented- like what the fuck do you want? Lol what do you hope for? Because frankly you’re painting this incredibly dark picture where no matter what you’re just kind of assed out in all areas of life.

I don’t have a point or a question Im just lost at this point lol

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Learned helplessness coupled with an expectation on others to solve any and all discomforts in life is what’s ruining these peoples lives, not imagined pity.

Any solution that is not all women stepping in to solve male pain is unacceptable, impossible, and very cruel. Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

Yep.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (37 children)

Acceptance won’t happen. Rights are needed largely because of that.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people

Correct

At least if they accept we are women (and trans men are men) they won’t think we are Wretched freaks. Which is what you want. “Stop hiding that you are freaks and let everyone hate you openly” that’s not a plan that helps us.

No one will ever accept trans people As anything more than circus freaks if the narrative of “trans people aren’t like normal people” is the refrain. Also you are asking us to abandon our identities and take on new ones. I don’t think of myself as “neither a man or a woman” I think of myself as a woman with a birth defect. Telling people I’m not a woman would be me lying.

I’m not worried about being outed. Everyone knows what I am. I see how nonpassing trans people get treated Nd I want better for others.

Noone would pay for dedicated trans spaces. Absent a legal mandate anyway. I would love single occupancy as a standard but again who is paying for that?

what the fuck do you hope for

Death mostly anymore

painting a dark picture where you are asses out in all areas of life

You are finally getting it. Being an obvious trans woman sucks. It’s better than the pretransition dysphoria but it’s a miserable life.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Yeah…

How’s that whole « accepting you as women » thing working out? Because it seems to not be going so well. Which is why I asked what I asked in the first place.

Im not saying the refrain is « trans people aren’t normal ». Im saying the fact of the matter is that being trans is not a normal thing to be. It’s just not. It’s rare. You know this. I didn’t say it made you a freak, im saying it does you no favors to not acknowledge that being trans is an incredibly unique experience, and I honestly don’t know how people who aren’t trans can relate to it. Which is exactly why the whole TWAW mantra is not exactly working out. TWAW depending on who you ask- and even some of the people who agree qualify that, TW are trans as a fact.

How you think of yourself and what’s reality are two different things. You can tell yourself you’re a woman with a birth defect- that doesn’t mean you actually are a woman or were born with a birth defect. Being male is not a birth defect. I know I know you hate men so to you it is- that’s your opinion, it’s still fact that it’s not a birth defect to be a male just because you wish you weren’t.

I’m not asking you to abandon your identity- you can’t even explain what it means to identify as a woman anyway lol. Im asking you not to undermine and diminish the truth and experience of half the world’s population by claiming it as your own. You’re a transwoman, that comes with its own set of experiences that no woman will ever relate to. And we have our own experiences that you can’t relate to. It’s disrespectful to ignore that, and it doesn’t make that truth go away.

You say you want better for others but it seems like you don’t- you just want those lucky enough to pass to be able to stealth, you seem to have no problem leaving non passing trans people in the lurch. I don’t really I know what to say about that other than that communities advocate better for themselves when they have each other’s backs…

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Imagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain.

I mean, being a woman who rejects femininity, I'm pretty used to being treated as a failure at anything other than making men's dicks go up. I hear talks of how subhuman women are every day, including from trans communities who are currently pushing back decades of progress women have made for the sake of their validation.

Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal

Well, yeah, you're in a group that's getting plastic surgeries and amputations, creating an artificial hormonal imbalance and spending a lifetime on hormones not meant for your body for no reason other than having a mental illness that makes you think a healthy, normal body you have is "wrong" and "disgusting". Even the trans people recognise that passing this off as having a male or female body isn't going to pass, hence why so many progressive positions revolve not around acceptance, but tricking people that you're really the opposite sex as effectively as possible. Imagine if gay people only insisted their partners legally be treated as the opposite sex so they could feel "normal", or if women had to amputate their breasts and take testosterone to stop being treated as subhuman...Oh wait, that one's already happening.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

What does this mean: "Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves"; and how is it different than how a man uses the men's room because his body defines him as such or a woman uses the women's room because her body defines her as such? Why is it bad? Also, that is one hell of a sexist assumption that men are incapable of empathy and women are somehow more capable of it. What you're seeing is the adaptation of women as a coherent segment of our society adapting to the fact that they are the smaller and more at risk of male violence than men. Are you seeing empathy around this Wi Spa thing? When you don't see this womanly empathy, do you then write them off as right wing evil terfs, instead of equally women as the women you think you get empathy from? Very sexist assumptions you got there.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

It was a typo. “Out themselves”

Also, that is one hell of a sexist assumption that men are incapable of empathy and women are somehow more capable of it.

If you say so. Men are monsters and I’m done softballing that stance. Women are capable of empathy. Men are monsters. That’s not a slam on women. They’re humans with emotions other than “hate” “lust” or “nothing”.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

So, we all "out" ourselves when we enter the bathroom. There can be no other way, unless you get your supposed wish and make every business build god-knows how many bathrooms. For a gym that fits one hundred people: how many separate facilities should they build?

Men are monsters and women are "capable" of empathy: sexist assumptions upon which gender is built by QT and by misogynists who want to keep women down. Every time I walk into a bathroom, I have to check to see if I think I'm going to get mugged, as I grew up in a violent city with a lot of crime. Fearing the mens room does not mean any one can then use the women's room. A adult gym locker room is not a violent place. Your perception of it is your perception. Using the women's room because they can't stop you and they can't beat you up has nothing to do with the empathy you imagine.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

It’s not sexist. Men are monsters. Woman are dynamic humans. You can’t be sexist against men so it isn’t sexist.

A men’s locker room is an isolate room with only men in it therefore no one to possible help you, restricted exits, and full of the worst kind of men fresh off a post workout testosterone boost. There isn’t a less safe place for a trans woman.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You are sexist, you make sexist assumptions about both men and women. You can't make up fake rules about not being able to be sexist against men, because sexism hems in men and women equally into their own pens. Trans people look at the pen they are not hemmed into according to their birth sex and somehow (editing the next part of this sentence to be more accurate) imagine they belong realize they would rather be in in the other pen, either to hide from being confronted with the reality of their inadequacy or to be predators of the AGP or other varieties, instead of realizing the pens are the problem. You are making shit up about mens locker rooms. You only feel safe in women's locker rooms because you have the same advantage over them that you fear, that makes you bullies. You don't want to be around people you fear but want to be around people you can physically dominate.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (11 children)

I’ve already expressly said I don’t even use locker rooms. Men are monsters. Trans women as a particular thing that they hate can never be safe around them. And no you can’t be sexist against men any more than you can be racist against white people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

And no you can’t be sexist against men any more than you can be racist against white people.

Of course people can be sexist against men and racist against white people. Lots of people such as mothers, teachers & certain women are sexist against boys & men. Lots of blacks, Asians, Arabs, "brown people" as well as white people are racist against white people.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The problem is not that this attitude is sexist against men, the problem is that it's sexist against women. C'mon, feminist analysis of "benevolent sexism" goes back at least a hundred years now, to Virginia Woolf's angel in the house. One of patriarchy's key tools is the insistence that men can't and mustn't be expected to control themselves, and women's job is to civilize men and take on the burden of being men's punching bags in order to prevent men from attacking each other. You aren't saying anything new here, just the same old sexist tropes that have kept people like you in control of people like me for fucking thousands of years. It's not women's job to tame Enkidu, we're not going to do it for you anymore.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Glad to see you don't just use the typical trans circular reason, but you instead use the full-on spherical reasoning. Men don't hat trans women, unless they are creeping on women and little girls. Men find trans women laughable or sad, one or the other. You are only in danger in a men's locker room if a criminal is doing something in there, same argument trans people make to women about predators in women's spaces, or if they are being an annoyance and wanting to get bet up. They guy swinging his dick around in the Wi Spa made the women go out and complain to the management-- which you confuse with empathy. If he was doing it the mens locker room it would have gone differently. You might see that as violence against a poor helpless trans woman but it would be simply getting what was asked for. There is a set of accepted behaviors in mens locker rooms and not calling attention to ones self or being annoying is something you might find difficult.

But I think we're done here, you might be circling your own void but we have been going in circles. That is not only in part because you've graduated from circular reasoning to spherical reasoning, but also we will have to agree to disagree. But, I do ask while you pretend to advocate for individual bathrooms in places like gyms please advocate for the barring of creepy AGPs putting on their ludicrous and creepy displays in women's rooms. or at least pretend to.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible. Sexism against men is possible, but it doesn't have as much authoritative weight behind it as the institutionalized sexism against women. Feminism not the liberal feminism bullshit but actual feminism is about separating personality from sex. Little boys can be affectionate, empathetic, emotional and caring. (There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there who grow up to be fantastic men) Little girls can be stoic, tough and domineering. Your sex is not your destiny, you could have any personality under the sun, we're all humans doing the best we can. Neither sex is inferior to the other, but we are very different physically and we need to account for those differences in law. Most behavior differences can be attributed to nurture, there may be some innate personality differences, but that would be very difficult to separate from cultural influence.

I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

I don't know if this will help you feel better about men, but a very low percentage of men are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. Many violent offenders also have mental health issues which is unfortunate. We really need to do a better job of taking care of the mentally ill in society. The 1% of the population accountable for 63% of all violent crime convictions

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

So here's the deal if all or even most men were actually monsters human civilization would not be possible.

Hardly. Monsters don’t have to be stupid. Exploitation and using others can let them run a society without empathy just fine.

There are some incredibly thoughtful sweet little boys out there

Sure

who grow up to be fantastic men

And here we disagree

I seriously doubt that the average Joe would attack any transwoman they saw on site. Most likely they would give them a double take then carry on about their business. Many average Joe's might crack a tasteless joke, but that's more annoying than anything. I find it kind of funny that even I have more faith in men than you do. It's a very small percentage of men who are predators that I have to watch out for, most men are fine and thank god for that.

Only if they thought they would get caught. Most people hate trans people. The ones who don’t are trans or just think of us as a fun flavor of gay (like Ru Paul does). Men are just more violent in part because they are taught to be in part because testosterone is basically concentrated evil.

Yeah you do have more faith in men than me. Mine is zero. I don’t trust men. I’m attracted to them but would never date one because that would entail the idiotic move of being alone with one as a trans woman.

Women are just better than men. You won’t change my mind about the fact that men are monsters .

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So I'm curious is there some self hatred going on there if you believe men are monsters? That kind of view just seems weird to me for a transwoman to have.

[–]Juniperius 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Plenty of men at this spa seemed willing to help the guy who may or may not be a transwoman, none were willing to help the women who were being put in danger by him. Did you watch the videos? Do you think Mr. Woke Moustache is a monster who would murder you? What about all the manarchists who attacked the women protesting?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

men are dangerous wherever they are. They are just hardest to escape when in a tiny single exit room with more than average privacy and

But you’re arguing for making men allowed to use the women’s room on a whim despite saying men are dangerous.

Why would letting men into women’s spaces make anyone safer?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

Actually I’m arguing we can’t be with men and need a place to go. And that trans women act with necessity. But I also argue that trans women aren’t men so I’m not saying men should be let in anywhere.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Transwomen are men and that’s fact, not a matter of opinion but go off.

Well, since you apparently agree that no transwoman has any business going into any space that is for actual women, you say third spaces aren’t acceptable because they out users, and using the correct sexed facilities is impossible because of a small risk of violence, are you suggesting that all transgender people should stay at home?

Is this really all just a front for you to piss and moan about not getting what you feel is just from the world?

You offer no answers, call women liars when they offer up facts and figures, consistently refuse to back up anything you claim because it’s clearly pulled from your ass, and insist we are all secretly spending hours of every single day thinking about how much we hate you in a grand conspiracy to ruin your life in particular.

Did you come here for anything other than to inflict self harm using other people as proxies?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

You conveniently leave off the fact that I’ve repeatedly said that neutral single occupancy facilities are actually a good option but enjoy you as hominem attacks and insults.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You yourself have also said they are no good because you’d be outed.

I didn’t insult you, you’d know if I did. For future reference it looms something like ‘xxxxxx you are a human dumpster and an idiot’ If I decide to insult you, the x’s would be your username.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

No I said that’s a problem with dedicated trans facilities. I’m advocating for neutral single occupancy facilities, not dedicated trans facilities.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh right the facilities you have argued are impossible to get because businesses all hate transgender people.

That’s your solution?

[–]divingrightintowork 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

When my state introduced self-ID in bathrooms there was no decrease in bathroom violence, because there wasn't really any existent bathroom violence. Also I've had no problems using male restrooms when necessary. How many times have you been physically attacked in the bathroom when making a beeline to the stall, then sink, then back out?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

How many times have you been physically attacked in the bathroom when making a beeline to the stall, then sink, then back out?

Once. When I was attacked I was walking in and headed to a stall. That’s why I stopped using men’s bathrooms. I was attacked for literally no possible other reason than because I am visibly trans.

[–]divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You don't think men are ever randomly violent to other men?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Sometimes but less often and men can defend themselves.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not just comfort. It’s safety

If male trans people understood safety, they wouldn't be demanding women's spaces include men just so they'd be validated. That's the whole point. You might advocate third spaces, but the vast, vast majority of male trans people do not, which means they don't register the actual problem with men beyond the bits that specifically go against their own interests (much like how even the men who are relentlessly bullied and screwed over by other men will still always take the side of men to work against women).