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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (37 children)

Acceptance won’t happen. Rights are needed largely because of that.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people

Correct

At least if they accept we are women (and trans men are men) they won’t think we are Wretched freaks. Which is what you want. “Stop hiding that you are freaks and let everyone hate you openly” that’s not a plan that helps us.

No one will ever accept trans people As anything more than circus freaks if the narrative of “trans people aren’t like normal people” is the refrain. Also you are asking us to abandon our identities and take on new ones. I don’t think of myself as “neither a man or a woman” I think of myself as a woman with a birth defect. Telling people I’m not a woman would be me lying.

I’m not worried about being outed. Everyone knows what I am. I see how nonpassing trans people get treated Nd I want better for others.

Noone would pay for dedicated trans spaces. Absent a legal mandate anyway. I would love single occupancy as a standard but again who is paying for that?

what the fuck do you hope for

Death mostly anymore

painting a dark picture where you are asses out in all areas of life

You are finally getting it. Being an obvious trans woman sucks. It’s better than the pretransition dysphoria but it’s a miserable life.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Yeah…

How’s that whole « accepting you as women » thing working out? Because it seems to not be going so well. Which is why I asked what I asked in the first place.

Im not saying the refrain is « trans people aren’t normal ». Im saying the fact of the matter is that being trans is not a normal thing to be. It’s just not. It’s rare. You know this. I didn’t say it made you a freak, im saying it does you no favors to not acknowledge that being trans is an incredibly unique experience, and I honestly don’t know how people who aren’t trans can relate to it. Which is exactly why the whole TWAW mantra is not exactly working out. TWAW depending on who you ask- and even some of the people who agree qualify that, TW are trans as a fact.

How you think of yourself and what’s reality are two different things. You can tell yourself you’re a woman with a birth defect- that doesn’t mean you actually are a woman or were born with a birth defect. Being male is not a birth defect. I know I know you hate men so to you it is- that’s your opinion, it’s still fact that it’s not a birth defect to be a male just because you wish you weren’t.

I’m not asking you to abandon your identity- you can’t even explain what it means to identify as a woman anyway lol. Im asking you not to undermine and diminish the truth and experience of half the world’s population by claiming it as your own. You’re a transwoman, that comes with its own set of experiences that no woman will ever relate to. And we have our own experiences that you can’t relate to. It’s disrespectful to ignore that, and it doesn’t make that truth go away.

You say you want better for others but it seems like you don’t- you just want those lucky enough to pass to be able to stealth, you seem to have no problem leaving non passing trans people in the lurch. I don’t really I know what to say about that other than that communities advocate better for themselves when they have each other’s backs…

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (35 children)

Things will never be good for nonpassing trans people but they aren’t getting better by making them some unrelatable other.

You are saying not just accept but encourage people to think of us other than we think of ourselves. “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”.

What you are asking is for us to become basically American Hijra. And life isn’t Awesome for Hijra if you weren’t aware.

I’m a woman so I want people to think of me as a woman. They usually don’t which is depressing and sucks but won’t be improved by telling them not to.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Im not saying to go around telling people that being trans is abnormal WTF

Im saying that trans people need to be able to acknowledge to themselves that being trans is a rarity that most people can’t relate to. And maybe they should keep that in mind when considering what they’re asking of others, and what they’re trying to tell us is true.

You’re saying “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”

Im saying “ ”

Im saying nothing.

you don’t have to say shit. You don’t have to tell people shit- unless it matters.

And people who it will matter to would either be professionals who shouldn’t be just randomly telling people they met a trans person or someone in your personal life who should be told (like a romantic partner). If someone mistakes a TW for a woman and the result is not that that someone gets raped by deception or the rights of a female aren’t undermined who gives a fuck? And if you don’t pass but someone is willing to use preferred pronouns and call you a woman it’s not like I’m saying they should be stopped.

All I said was that I think it’s better to advocate for spaces for trans people and that, because the ability to stealth is both not a guarantee and can be taken from someone, maybe it’s better to consider finding ways to make things better for out trans people, So people don’t have to stealth in their first place.

the trans community as a whole can advocate better for themselves by acknowledging some unavoidable truths and accepting that the rest of the word doesn’t think like them- so trying to convince or force us to think like you ain’t gonna work. It’s not working, masks. It’s really not going well, this current narrative is backfiring. And it’s backfiring because you cannot and will never be able to successfully convert the whole world or even your whole country to your way of thinking. You’re losing allies and upsetting people who didn’t give a fuck before as well as still having to deal with the people who actually do just hate trans people just because

That’s really all I’m saying- You can’t control how people see you or think of you, no matter how much it means to you. You can advocate for protections so that regardless of how someone thinks of you, you are safe and have equality (equality doesn’t mean inclusion, acceptance, or getting everything you want)

Im Also saying acknowledging the reality of the situation rather than pushing what you’d like it to be may actually help put out the fires on the bridges the trans community is currently burning

Im not saying blatantly out yourself, I’m saying it is possible to work towards getting to a point where if you are known as trans, people don’t care

Every community has had to do this- it’s a tough comparison because being trans is so unique- but women had to convince men we weren’t hysterical harlots who would ruin the world if we had equality, poc had to convince white people not to- well a lot of things…, LGB had to convince heteros that we weren’t mentally ill, depraved and that we deserved to not be illegal, and then that we deserved equal rights… obviously there’s still work to be done in all of those communities, but great strides have been made and my point is just that even if you’re right and everyone does currently just look at trans people as freaks or whatever you said, that’s kind of true all the time in these types is situations- we judge other groups and even discriminate against them until we learn to do better. You can see it all through out history. You don’t overcome that by perpetuating the idea that what you are should be kept secret because it’s shameful. All that does is tell the rest of us to agree with you.

But you can’t overcome it by forcing your beliefs on others, either.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (33 children)

It is shameful. It’s bad to be trans. Everyone agrees. Shit you agree. Advocating for trans people to be seen as some abnormal other doesn’t help anyone. If we are just saying we are women, the conflict ends in peace if we win. Pushing the narrative that we are some phantom other doesn’t have a positive endpoint, it just convinces people we ate some phantom other who don’t belong anywhere if it’s successful.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

It's would only end in peace for "trans women"... However, this would only make things more difficult for women. Making special exeptions for some males in practice means accepting any male in women's spaces, and next thing you know incidents like the Wi spa hapen. Trans people want women to empathise with them when they don't have any for women.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (30 children)

And your solution is “trans people should be freaks, have nothing, and unable to hide it”. Yeah your empathy cup runneth over.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I said nothing of that sort. You're putting words in my mouth. Besides, yourself has admited that most trans people don't pass. So, why do you expect people accept TWAW as a truth when you know people are usually aware of trans people's actual sex and just pretend otherwise for politeness sake? Why don't fight for tolerance and third spaces instead of antagonizing half the population?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (28 children)

Tolerance isn’t living. Bring a freak people pretend doesn’t exist isn’t something to shoot for. So we push for acceptance.

Third spaces aren’t viable. People hate trans people they wouldn’t want to do something just for us. No one will spend money on resources that won’t see use most days. It necessarily outs the ones lucky enough to pass.

Single neutral spaces don’t have those problems.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Trans identified peaple are not going to achieve acceptance by forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

Third spaces could be for single use too. Trans identified people could fight for those, as long there are still single sex spaces. And don't give me "that won't ever happen because the nobody cares about trans people" excuse when there are in fact lots and lots of people bending backwards over whatever transactivists demand. Years ago, the nude man of Wi Spa would have been kicked out of the women's section without questions immediately. This is the result of the trans lobby.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Tolerance isn’t living.

But it's all any of us are legally owed under the aegis of "rights."

Rights and protections mandate tolerance, which is a neutral value of access, support, and regard.

Acceptance (as you use it here) is a positive value of social relating.

The rights you want to see granted are important, but it doesn't follow that acceptance will accompany tolerance. Individuals and groups must work for acceptance; it requires its own effort.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah you’re not going to listen to a thing I say so good night masks lol