QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them?

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (209 children)

Male and female don’t exist (just as race doesn’t exist) and sex is a spectrum.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

How is sex a spectrum if male and female don’t exist?

(Also this doesn’t address the question at all. What does this have to do with “misgendering” or being forced to pretend we can’t tell someone’s sex?)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (54 children)

The same way that color is a spectrum even if you use coordinates rather than names to describe their properties.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Lol okay then, buddy

So what does this have to do with misgendering or being forced to “mis-sex” trans people?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (52 children)

The point sweetie, is that you’re not being forced to mis-sex anyone, but rather to correctly gender them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

But if sex is a spectrum (it’s not...), that doesn’t necessarily mean that you can artificially change your place on the spectrum, since sex doesn’t change in humans, spectrum or not. And if gender is societal, if society sees someone as a man (or a woman), wouldn’t society, rather than the individual, be right?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (50 children)

Transition changes the status of some of your sex traits so that corresponds in a shift in sex spectrum coordinates. Also gender is societal in that the context that an individual develops in shapes their self image, but I would still consider the individuals internal psychological characteristics (i.e. what vague sex trait group they instinctually imprint onto) as being the primary determinant of an individuals GI. Thus how they see themselves is their GI, not how society sees them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

Lmao it’s like you make it up as you go.

Sex is a spectrum, but if you artificially change things that don’t determine sex, then you’ve shifted on the spectrum?

And gender is societal, but it’s based on an individual’s self image?

I understand that someone’s “gender identity” would be individual, but that doesn’t mean that society sees them that way, so just because gender identity would be individual, that doesn’t mean that gender is. And if gender isn’t individual (it can’t be, definitively, if it were there’d be no gender), then everyone is the gender society assigns to them on a general basis, regardless of someone’s gender identity. So a transwoman’s gender would still be male, and since biologically they are male, their sex would still be male, too. No amount of hormones or surgeries or behavior is going to change a tw to female when it comes to the features that determine sex- even if there were a spectrum, and considering all of the tras talking about how TW are mistreated and most people don’t want to date them and don’t consider them women, I’d say society doesn’t see them as women either.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (48 children)

How society sees them only matters insomuch as society’s views impact their idea of their own gender. The individuals viewpoint is what determines their actual gender as gender is a subjective phenomenon and thus only real to the individuals who believe in it. As for how society sees trans people, we’re winning that war and within a generation I expect us to be the majority view especially after we see the first trans woman give birth through transplants.

Hormonal profiles, external genital anatomy, internal genital anatomy, and secondary sex characteristics are all affectable through transition, so yes transition shifts an individuals place on the sex spectrum.

Also why would behavior matter in regards to “changing a tw to female”?

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

Humans can't change their sex. Neither naturally nor with the help of medical technology. There is not such sex change. What "medical transition" can only do is to create a simulacrum of the opposite sex through exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgeries. However, everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenous hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone. Although hormones and surgeries may affect your fertility, you don't suddenly start producing the gametes of the opposite sex. BTW, both males and females have the same sex hormones. The difference lies in the concentration levels of them. Also, the hormonal profile of females is more complicated because it varies through our menstrual cycles and through our different life stages. Genital surgery, which most trans identified people don't undergone, can only produce a simulacrum of the opposite sex's genitalia at best, with none of its funtionality. Lastly, more often than not, we can tell your actual sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That doesn’t make sense at all lol. Either gender is a socially formed construct or it’s individual. It doesn’t work both ways, it doesn’t make sense either way if we pretend it works both ways. I think you’re being incredibly naive about the “war” you’re winning but that’s a topic for a different post so I’m not getting into it.

None of the things you listed are used to determine sex. And genital anatomy is just not true even if those were valid determinants.

As for why I said behavior- I guess I used it as a stand in for gender identity. Basically I’m saying nothing changes TW into females other than the lie on some of their legal documents- which is only a lie on paper and means nothing for their sex/gender in actuality.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (152 children)

If male and female don't exist, then who produces sperm and eggs, respectively? Or is there a spectrum of gametes? You acknowledged the other day that the union of two gametes is needed to make a baby, but you didn't gave more details.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (151 children)

Gametes are produced by people who may have a variety of mixed or intermediate sex traits, and are not the sole determined of sex because then infertile people wouldn’t have a sex.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But who produces each gamete? What kind of people get pregnant and give birth? What kind of people impregnate the former. What kind of people breastfeed? Don't be so vague and give me more details.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

People who posess one of the many combinations of sex traits that allow for the production of each gamete.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Which sex traits allow the production of eggs? Which sex traits allow the production of sperm? If you and others can't answer these simple questions, then it's clear the "sex is a spectrum" model is quite useless.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

I’m sorry, are you doubting the fact that several sex traits have to be in one of a number of possible sex traits configurations for viable gametes to be produced? I have answered these questions, I just see no need to expand unnecessary effort arguing with someone who close minded when I’ve already proven a certain point

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You haven't explained or proven anything. You're determined to be as vague as possible by only mentioning gametes (never specifying which one is produced by a given sex) and sex traits (again, never specifying what those traits are and what sex has them).

And QT is asking us to justify the existence of only two sexes all the time. So, why wouldn't you put more effort into explaining how the "sex is a spectrum" works?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

You are begging the question in regards to their being only two sexes who can possess these traits

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, because human reproduction only makes sense if sex is binary. Though, I'm not opposed to listening to alternative viewpoints in general. So, if you and others believe otherwise, I'll become an explanation about how reproductions works according to you. However, there has been 14 days since I created that thread about making babies already, and I've yet to hear a single explanation, let alone a satisfying one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Can you just link the spectrum for us so we can see what you keep referring to?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I would be interested to see just how much of a female I really am, having so foolishly thought of myself as one because of being born with a uterus.

Maybe if I stop shaving my armpits or drop to 80lbs again I’ll get some sweet male privilege. Body hair and low body fat can change my sex after all

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (17 children)

I find ISNA does a good job explaining it:

https://isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex/

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Wtf is that link?

with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris

The hell? How is it "in-between"?

My enlargened clitoris is just a big clitoris, it is in no way in between - it is just clitoris that is bigger than usual. That's it.

It can't ejaculate, I can't pee through it, it functions 100% as any other clitoris in any other female. The only difference is size.

or a boy may be born with a notably small penis

That is not intersex condition, by the way. And micropenis mostly showing up later in life - during puberty or later, not at birth.

Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question.

No? It is very distinct cases and it is important to know them for healthcare issues, as most conditions will have a lot of complications and some (like mine) are deadly if not being treated correctly.

Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum

Are they are telling I am less female or what do they mean by "spectrum"? Like there "less red goess to yellow" there "less female goes male"? That is very dehumanizing and that is what was leading to IGM before. After scientists found that intersex people are ALWAYS male or female and that it is pretty easy to find out - IGM stopped in most cases, as now everyone knows that we are just same female as any other female (or same male as any other male) and that we don't need "fixing". And knowing biological sex started saving lives of people like myself - because boys and girls need different treatment and if it not received in first hours after birth - kid will either die or become heavily disabled for the rest of the life. And later in life we need different treatment and we have different complications. Other intersex conditions are most often are sex-specific and happening ONLY in females or ONLY in males.

So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too.

Not very much, in 99.998% they are correctly showing sex. And genitals+chromosomes in 99.982% are showing sex correctly. So we are working with numbers like 0.002% and 0.018% of population.

But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.

Wrong, it is done not for culture wise purposes or for social interractions, but for healthcare and correct treatment. And it is important - again, I'd be dead if in first few hours they would not do scanse to see if I am female or male. And this knowledge was needed not for "social purposes".

Also, are they saying that man with smaller penis is less man? Lmao.

So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins.

So yeah, they see me as "less female". And how to become "full female"? I don't want to be lesser. And no one want - and it WHAT leads to IGM among youth, it what leads to big distress among intersex youth. THIS is VERY harmful. This site is very harmful towards intersex people, why it even have "intersex" in their name?

Some think you have to have “ambiguous genitalia” to count as intersex, even if your inside is mostly of one sex and your outside is mostly of anothe

If it is so - then only around 0.012% or so are intersex.

Some think your brain has to be exposed to an unusual mix of hormones prenatally to count as intersex

Then around 15-20% of population are intersex, mostly women with PCOS and women or men with LOAH (LOCAH).

unless your brain experienced atypical development

What does this mean? This happens almost never and this happens almost always not to intersex people, wtf.

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births

How they got this number? It is around 0.2%, a bit less by majority of studies.

If you add all their numbers, there will be even less than 0.2%

I guess it is because they included "Late onset adrenal hyperplasia (LOAH) one in 66 individuals" - which is not intersex condition and people with it are 100% typical males or females, and this condition is appearing only late in life, and just affecting slightly hormonal levels and mostly it is about adrenal glands not working properly. If LOAH is considered intersex - then PCOS should be too. Then intersex will be like 1/10 or 1/5 of population, lol.

It is VERY dangerous site to intersex youth.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Don't be so angry, that site is very outdated:

and stopped updating this website in 2008

Why people are still linking it - is unknown, thought.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah, I see.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (10 children)

Or maybe you’re just wrong

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Wrong? Sorry, but I lived through this.

And if I am wrong - then how to become full female? Why am I less female? How my bigger clit is "more male" if it works 100% as clit and 0% as penis? How is it helpful to say to kids they are less female and how it will stop IGM, when it was THE reason of IGM?

And where exactly I am wrong? I am certain in everything I said - it is either lived experiense or medical fact.

I am rarely meeting so rude and unempathetic people, lol.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Classic "Sweetie, you just lived it wrong, let me endosplain you your own condition" I've seen hundred times from intersexphobes. I am so sorry for all this BS that people with DSD are living through because of this ideology.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

It isn’t more male. Maleness and femaleness don’t exist, just as races don’t exist. You just have a certain level of testosterone or melanin. Also get your facts straight, IGM was about bodily normativity not an inability to classify people correctly

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was because of inability to classify people correctly or thinking that sex is a spectrum and people can be more or less.

If "maleness and femaleness" don't exist, then what that spectrum is at all? It makes no sense then. And how we can reproduce if there no males or females and we can't say who is who? And why 40 very rare conditions which are affecting very small percentage of people matters in this question at all?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Are you...

Everybody on this post is wrong except for you? Even someone with lived experience?!

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I mean Sarah Palin has lived experience of patriarchal oppression but I don’t think I’ll be taking her opinions on feminism seriously anytime soon

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This isn’t someone’s “opinion”. They’re actually intersex. This is someone’s experience and information they have first hand, given from medical professionals and actually living with an intersex condition.

Sarah Palin’s opinions on feminism are just that-opinions.

Also- they’re not the only person saying you’re wrong. Everyone else is. So you’re basically saying that someone who has experienced living with an intersex condition and being treated (for lack of a better word) for it, and even some people who have experience in fields where this topic is relevant, as well as everyone else, even some trans people... we’re all wrong, and only you understand biology and sex?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I understand what intersex means, I’m asking for a link to the spectrum that shows everything thé full spectrum that included everyone, be they intersex, trans or not trans.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Read all the way through my guy, it describes the sex spectrum Halfway down

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Addressed this in my last two comments. It’s probably easier if we stay in one place (in the comments) from now on.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (120 children)

So would you say all secondary sexed traits are determining factors in someones sex? Like, presence of facial hair in a woman is caused by maleness, not a disorder like pcos? Do you think pcos is a disorder or just part of the spectrum? What about other hormone disorders? Not disorders because spectrum?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (119 children)

There is no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait, so while facial hair would be aspect of their sex spectrum coordinates it doesn’t make anyone more male

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao ok.

So what everyone else calls sexed traits are influenced by...what? Which genes influence them if we got it wrong with the sex genes?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

What? There are a number of factors that affect our physical development besides genes but I’m not sure what you mean exactly

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which genes influence features most people believe are sexed?

What causes a person to produce sperm? What leads to the development of mammary glands? Which genes influence this since is it apparently not the sex genes.

It’s pretty clear. If sex is not real and nobody is male or female, what do the genes we’ve identified as sexed do, and what actually causes differentiation of genitals?

Do we as a species just randomly develop genital combinations and an assortment of gametes?
Or are you suggesting that secondary sexed features like a beard are actually exactly as relevant to a persons sex as their testes?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (115 children)

Wait...

Why is it that you said the changes a TW undergoes to appear female changes their position on the sex spectrum, but now you say there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait and a sex trait found typically on males doesn’t make anyone more male?

If there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, how is there a spectrum? And what is it based on? And if there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, wouldn’t that mean that since TW are born male, no matter what they change they stay male, according to your own logic?

How does that work?

How does hormones and or surgery change where a TW lies on the spectrum, but not facial hair? Particularly since a transman on testosterone may have facial hair? Are transmen stuck where they were born on the spectrum but TW can move? Why?

Also- still waiting on the link to the sex spectrum. You just posted an article explaining intersex, which we’re all pretty familiar with.

Eta: copied your previous comments in case you needed the reference:

“ hormonal profiles, external genital anatomy, internal genital anatomy, and secondary sex characteristics* are all affectable through transition, so yes transition shifts an individuals place on the sex spectrum.”

And

“Transition changes the status of some of your sex traits so that corresponds in a shift in sex spectrum coordinates.“

  • such as facial hair

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transmen are always forgotten.

When people, even here, are talking about transgender healthcare - it is always transwomen specific stuff, like early puberty blockers and so on. It is almost never beneficial to transmen or even mentioning transmen. So like in general healthcare - people born male are getting focused and healthcare researched for male born people is imposed on females with lower doses. Same tendencies are here. I more specified it here.

Or like in Scotland recently - court "broadened" word "women" to include "transwomen" to give ability for transwomen to take women's spots in government, however, it not broadened word "men" to include "transmen", so they can't take men's spots in government. So like in regular politics - people born male have an advantage, regardless of their gender identity or expression.

And so on. I can list such examples for days. Transmen in debates are always forgotten or are an afterthought.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (113 children)

Why would you need maleness and femaleness on the sex spectrum for it to work? You can describe colors without resorting to using names on the color spectrum can’t you?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (112 children)

Are you kidding? What would a sex spectrum be, if you don’t need the two sexes on the spectrum? What is the spectrum measuring, if not sex?

How exactly does one describe a sex spectrum without sex? That doesn’t even make sense even coming from a tra perspective.

As far as colors- sure, I could describe Orange without explaining where it fits on a color spectrum, but only because we all already know what the color Orange is on its own, and even what shades it’s similar to. I can reference the fruit, the most common color of a basketball, various orange things that exist all around us and we all easily recognize. But I don’t even have to, because we already know what the color orange is.

I don’t really see how that’s comparable to you simultaneously insisting that sex is a spectrum, without male and female.

spectrum [ˈspektrəm] NOUN a band of colors, as seen in a rainbow, produced by separation of the components of light by their different degrees of refraction according to wavelength. (the spectrum) the entire range of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. an image or distribution of components of any electromagnetic radiation arranged in a progressive series according to wavelength. used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points

In other words, if sex is a spectrum, it relies on male and female. It would have to be a spectrum between male and female. That’s the only way it makes sense. Just as Orange would fall in a spectrum, likely between red and yellow. You know why I guessed between red and yellow? Because I can explain that red and yellow mix into orange. Because I can reference a color spectrum and see it, unlike you, who keeps mentioning a spectrum that you can’t provide. Not even in the article you linked.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My whole point being this-

you’re saying:

that male and female don’t exist

That sex is a spectrum (but between what and what we don’t know, because you said make and female don’t exist)

That sex traits are neither male nor female (then what is a sex trait? Why do we have different ones? And how is the spectrum measured?)

That TW can change their position on the spectrum through transition- by changing their sex traits (even though sex traits aren’t male or female)

But that a female (what’s that?) wouldn’t be on a more male end of the spectrum if she has facial hair, because sex traits aren’t male or female (then how did the TW move position on this spectrum?)

Also:

I asked you to link the spectrum, and you failed to. Instead you offered an article about intersex conditions that I now see an actual intersex person debunked easily.

So you can’t prove any of your claims and they contradict each other.

Can you clarify?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Short dismissive answers on long big posts, without adressing any points in those posts or adressing only small, minor or easiest to work around point.

This person does not worth any time or effort from anyone. They are acting just like a troll to make you angry, without answering any questions at all and to give vague answers.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (109 children)

Your perception of orange existing as a discrete entity separate from the colors that preceded and follow it is just another illusion

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (108 children)

Yeah I’m done. You’re not going to address anything I say. You just keep saying things aren’t real.