QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them?

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (120 children)

So would you say all secondary sexed traits are determining factors in someones sex? Like, presence of facial hair in a woman is caused by maleness, not a disorder like pcos? Do you think pcos is a disorder or just part of the spectrum? What about other hormone disorders? Not disorders because spectrum?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (119 children)

There is no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait, so while facial hair would be aspect of their sex spectrum coordinates it doesn’t make anyone more male

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao ok.

So what everyone else calls sexed traits are influenced by...what? Which genes influence them if we got it wrong with the sex genes?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

What? There are a number of factors that affect our physical development besides genes but I’m not sure what you mean exactly

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which genes influence features most people believe are sexed?

What causes a person to produce sperm? What leads to the development of mammary glands? Which genes influence this since is it apparently not the sex genes.

It’s pretty clear. If sex is not real and nobody is male or female, what do the genes we’ve identified as sexed do, and what actually causes differentiation of genitals?

Do we as a species just randomly develop genital combinations and an assortment of gametes?
Or are you suggesting that secondary sexed features like a beard are actually exactly as relevant to a persons sex as their testes?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (115 children)

Wait...

Why is it that you said the changes a TW undergoes to appear female changes their position on the sex spectrum, but now you say there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait and a sex trait found typically on males doesn’t make anyone more male?

If there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, how is there a spectrum? And what is it based on? And if there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, wouldn’t that mean that since TW are born male, no matter what they change they stay male, according to your own logic?

How does that work?

How does hormones and or surgery change where a TW lies on the spectrum, but not facial hair? Particularly since a transman on testosterone may have facial hair? Are transmen stuck where they were born on the spectrum but TW can move? Why?

Also- still waiting on the link to the sex spectrum. You just posted an article explaining intersex, which we’re all pretty familiar with.

Eta: copied your previous comments in case you needed the reference:

“ hormonal profiles, external genital anatomy, internal genital anatomy, and secondary sex characteristics* are all affectable through transition, so yes transition shifts an individuals place on the sex spectrum.”

And

“Transition changes the status of some of your sex traits so that corresponds in a shift in sex spectrum coordinates.“

  • such as facial hair

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transmen are always forgotten.

When people, even here, are talking about transgender healthcare - it is always transwomen specific stuff, like early puberty blockers and so on. It is almost never beneficial to transmen or even mentioning transmen. So like in general healthcare - people born male are getting focused and healthcare researched for male born people is imposed on females with lower doses. Same tendencies are here. I more specified it here.

Or like in Scotland recently - court "broadened" word "women" to include "transwomen" to give ability for transwomen to take women's spots in government, however, it not broadened word "men" to include "transmen", so they can't take men's spots in government. So like in regular politics - people born male have an advantage, regardless of their gender identity or expression.

And so on. I can list such examples for days. Transmen in debates are always forgotten or are an afterthought.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (113 children)

Why would you need maleness and femaleness on the sex spectrum for it to work? You can describe colors without resorting to using names on the color spectrum can’t you?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (112 children)

Are you kidding? What would a sex spectrum be, if you don’t need the two sexes on the spectrum? What is the spectrum measuring, if not sex?

How exactly does one describe a sex spectrum without sex? That doesn’t even make sense even coming from a tra perspective.

As far as colors- sure, I could describe Orange without explaining where it fits on a color spectrum, but only because we all already know what the color Orange is on its own, and even what shades it’s similar to. I can reference the fruit, the most common color of a basketball, various orange things that exist all around us and we all easily recognize. But I don’t even have to, because we already know what the color orange is.

I don’t really see how that’s comparable to you simultaneously insisting that sex is a spectrum, without male and female.

spectrum [ˈspektrəm] NOUN a band of colors, as seen in a rainbow, produced by separation of the components of light by their different degrees of refraction according to wavelength. (the spectrum) the entire range of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. an image or distribution of components of any electromagnetic radiation arranged in a progressive series according to wavelength. used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points

In other words, if sex is a spectrum, it relies on male and female. It would have to be a spectrum between male and female. That’s the only way it makes sense. Just as Orange would fall in a spectrum, likely between red and yellow. You know why I guessed between red and yellow? Because I can explain that red and yellow mix into orange. Because I can reference a color spectrum and see it, unlike you, who keeps mentioning a spectrum that you can’t provide. Not even in the article you linked.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My whole point being this-

you’re saying:

that male and female don’t exist

That sex is a spectrum (but between what and what we don’t know, because you said make and female don’t exist)

That sex traits are neither male nor female (then what is a sex trait? Why do we have different ones? And how is the spectrum measured?)

That TW can change their position on the spectrum through transition- by changing their sex traits (even though sex traits aren’t male or female)

But that a female (what’s that?) wouldn’t be on a more male end of the spectrum if she has facial hair, because sex traits aren’t male or female (then how did the TW move position on this spectrum?)

Also:

I asked you to link the spectrum, and you failed to. Instead you offered an article about intersex conditions that I now see an actual intersex person debunked easily.

So you can’t prove any of your claims and they contradict each other.

Can you clarify?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Short dismissive answers on long big posts, without adressing any points in those posts or adressing only small, minor or easiest to work around point.

This person does not worth any time or effort from anyone. They are acting just like a troll to make you angry, without answering any questions at all and to give vague answers.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (109 children)

Your perception of orange existing as a discrete entity separate from the colors that preceded and follow it is just another illusion

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (108 children)

Yeah I’m done. You’re not going to address anything I say. You just keep saying things aren’t real.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (107 children)

I mean what I’m saying is literally true, perception of color categories is societally constructed which is why some cultures consider blue and green to be the same color

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (106 children)

So if I said something is the same color of an orange (the fruit), nobody would know what I meant? And even if some cultures call blue and green the same color, wouldn’t the handy dandy spectrum you brought up be a pretty easy way to clarify what color someone is referring to, regardless of what any particular culture believes? Orange would still be in the spectrum, regardless of what you call it.

This doesn’t even address the questions about your sex spectrum. Nice way of trying to avoid that, when that’s really what we’re focused on.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (105 children)

It’s an analogy amigo. You’re arbitrarily separating out some parts of the color spectrum as being in distinct categories the same way that you’re arbitrarily separating out sex spectrum traits as belonging in distinct categories. You’re basically operating with platonic categories when reality is actually nominalistic and all categories are merely subjective creations