QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

How is sex a spectrum if male and female don’t exist?

(Also this doesn’t address the question at all. What does this have to do with “misgendering” or being forced to pretend we can’t tell someone’s sex?)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (54 children)

The same way that color is a spectrum even if you use coordinates rather than names to describe their properties.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Lol okay then, buddy

So what does this have to do with misgendering or being forced to “mis-sex” trans people?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (52 children)

The point sweetie, is that you’re not being forced to mis-sex anyone, but rather to correctly gender them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

But if sex is a spectrum (it’s not...), that doesn’t necessarily mean that you can artificially change your place on the spectrum, since sex doesn’t change in humans, spectrum or not. And if gender is societal, if society sees someone as a man (or a woman), wouldn’t society, rather than the individual, be right?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (50 children)

Transition changes the status of some of your sex traits so that corresponds in a shift in sex spectrum coordinates. Also gender is societal in that the context that an individual develops in shapes their self image, but I would still consider the individuals internal psychological characteristics (i.e. what vague sex trait group they instinctually imprint onto) as being the primary determinant of an individuals GI. Thus how they see themselves is their GI, not how society sees them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

Lmao it’s like you make it up as you go.

Sex is a spectrum, but if you artificially change things that don’t determine sex, then you’ve shifted on the spectrum?

And gender is societal, but it’s based on an individual’s self image?

I understand that someone’s “gender identity” would be individual, but that doesn’t mean that society sees them that way, so just because gender identity would be individual, that doesn’t mean that gender is. And if gender isn’t individual (it can’t be, definitively, if it were there’d be no gender), then everyone is the gender society assigns to them on a general basis, regardless of someone’s gender identity. So a transwoman’s gender would still be male, and since biologically they are male, their sex would still be male, too. No amount of hormones or surgeries or behavior is going to change a tw to female when it comes to the features that determine sex- even if there were a spectrum, and considering all of the tras talking about how TW are mistreated and most people don’t want to date them and don’t consider them women, I’d say society doesn’t see them as women either.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (48 children)

How society sees them only matters insomuch as society’s views impact their idea of their own gender. The individuals viewpoint is what determines their actual gender as gender is a subjective phenomenon and thus only real to the individuals who believe in it. As for how society sees trans people, we’re winning that war and within a generation I expect us to be the majority view especially after we see the first trans woman give birth through transplants.

Hormonal profiles, external genital anatomy, internal genital anatomy, and secondary sex characteristics are all affectable through transition, so yes transition shifts an individuals place on the sex spectrum.

Also why would behavior matter in regards to “changing a tw to female”?

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

Humans can't change their sex. Neither naturally nor with the help of medical technology. There is not such sex change. What "medical transition" can only do is to create a simulacrum of the opposite sex through exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgeries. However, everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenous hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone. Although hormones and surgeries may affect your fertility, you don't suddenly start producing the gametes of the opposite sex. BTW, both males and females have the same sex hormones. The difference lies in the concentration levels of them. Also, the hormonal profile of females is more complicated because it varies through our menstrual cycles and through our different life stages. Genital surgery, which most trans identified people don't undergone, can only produce a simulacrum of the opposite sex's genitalia at best, with none of its funtionality. Lastly, more often than not, we can tell your actual sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (45 children)

Sex is a spectrum not a binary and sex traits can be changed. Sorry but feelings aren’t facts

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That doesn’t make sense at all lol. Either gender is a socially formed construct or it’s individual. It doesn’t work both ways, it doesn’t make sense either way if we pretend it works both ways. I think you’re being incredibly naive about the “war” you’re winning but that’s a topic for a different post so I’m not getting into it.

None of the things you listed are used to determine sex. And genital anatomy is just not true even if those were valid determinants.

As for why I said behavior- I guess I used it as a stand in for gender identity. Basically I’m saying nothing changes TW into females other than the lie on some of their legal documents- which is only a lie on paper and means nothing for their sex/gender in actuality.