QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

Lmao it’s like you make it up as you go.

Sex is a spectrum, but if you artificially change things that don’t determine sex, then you’ve shifted on the spectrum?

And gender is societal, but it’s based on an individual’s self image?

I understand that someone’s “gender identity” would be individual, but that doesn’t mean that society sees them that way, so just because gender identity would be individual, that doesn’t mean that gender is. And if gender isn’t individual (it can’t be, definitively, if it were there’d be no gender), then everyone is the gender society assigns to them on a general basis, regardless of someone’s gender identity. So a transwoman’s gender would still be male, and since biologically they are male, their sex would still be male, too. No amount of hormones or surgeries or behavior is going to change a tw to female when it comes to the features that determine sex- even if there were a spectrum, and considering all of the tras talking about how TW are mistreated and most people don’t want to date them and don’t consider them women, I’d say society doesn’t see them as women either.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (48 children)

How society sees them only matters insomuch as society’s views impact their idea of their own gender. The individuals viewpoint is what determines their actual gender as gender is a subjective phenomenon and thus only real to the individuals who believe in it. As for how society sees trans people, we’re winning that war and within a generation I expect us to be the majority view especially after we see the first trans woman give birth through transplants.

Hormonal profiles, external genital anatomy, internal genital anatomy, and secondary sex characteristics are all affectable through transition, so yes transition shifts an individuals place on the sex spectrum.

Also why would behavior matter in regards to “changing a tw to female”?

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

Humans can't change their sex. Neither naturally nor with the help of medical technology. There is not such sex change. What "medical transition" can only do is to create a simulacrum of the opposite sex through exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgeries. However, everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenous hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone. Although hormones and surgeries may affect your fertility, you don't suddenly start producing the gametes of the opposite sex. BTW, both males and females have the same sex hormones. The difference lies in the concentration levels of them. Also, the hormonal profile of females is more complicated because it varies through our menstrual cycles and through our different life stages. Genital surgery, which most trans identified people don't undergone, can only produce a simulacrum of the opposite sex's genitalia at best, with none of its funtionality. Lastly, more often than not, we can tell your actual sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (45 children)

Sex is a spectrum not a binary and sex traits can be changed. Sorry but feelings aren’t facts

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

Repeating that sex is a spectrum won't convince anyone, especially when you can't even explain how babies are made.

Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum). Then, a spermatozoon and an ovum fuse to form the zygote, restoring this way the normal amount of DNA. Some species are hermaphrodites, which means they can produce both male and female gametes. Humans are not hermaphrodites, though. There are several genes involved in the process of sex determination, but one of the most important is the SRY gen, which is located in the Y chromosome. If this gen is present, then the embryo will develop testes. If not, then it’ll will develop ovaries. The hormones secreted by the testes drive the male differentiation pathway for the rest of the male reproductive organs. And the absence of these hormones drives the female differentiation pathway.

There are some people who have a disorder of sexual development (DSD), but they are rare and they are still either male or female, i.e. they don't produce a third type of gamete.

Also, in mammals, females give birth to the offspring (the only exception being monotremes, who lay eggs). Female mammals also nourish the young with milk produced by their mammary glands.

BTW, I think QT should be the last to say "feelings aren't facts".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (43 children)

Nope because there exist intersex people who don’t fit you classification model but do fit mine. Ergo mine is the more accurate system. Also gametes are only one sex trait not the determining factor of binary sex status because otherwise people who don’t produce gametes would be sexless

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

I can’t decide if I suspect you are a regular troll, or a gc person trolling as a tra. But the circles you talk around yourself seem way too contradictory to not be intentional. If I’m wrong, I’m really wondering your age group and where you learned all of this, instead of what the rest of us learned.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (39 children)

Neither, I honestly believe this and more and more people are agreeing with me including ISNA

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Okay buddy, alrighty then

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (37 children)

Sure thing dude

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Intersex people are perfectly fitting that definition, as it says about body that is developed to support and produce gametes, not about gametes themselves.

Otherwise boys and girls pre-puberty, women after menopause, women during pregnancy and men after andropause would not be sexed too, lol.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To be honest, the term intersex is misleading. Intersex people are either male or female, not an intermediate sex.

Gametes don't come from nowhere, you know? Eggs are produced in the ovaries and sperm in the testes. Gonads (i.e. testes and ovaries) are also the main source of sex hormones. All the other organs of the reproductive system have a role in human reproduction, too.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That doesn’t make sense at all lol. Either gender is a socially formed construct or it’s individual. It doesn’t work both ways, it doesn’t make sense either way if we pretend it works both ways. I think you’re being incredibly naive about the “war” you’re winning but that’s a topic for a different post so I’m not getting into it.

None of the things you listed are used to determine sex. And genital anatomy is just not true even if those were valid determinants.

As for why I said behavior- I guess I used it as a stand in for gender identity. Basically I’m saying nothing changes TW into females other than the lie on some of their legal documents- which is only a lie on paper and means nothing for their sex/gender in actuality.