Do individuals with CAIS have female sex organs? Or do they have male sex organs?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If CAIS individuals do not have ovaries, and have testes or penises instead, as said above, they are not girls, women, or female. They are boys, men or male.

Where did you get the idea that persons with CAIS have penises? It's not "as said above" like you claim.

The way you speak of "testes or penises" makes them sound as if they are interchangeable and always go hand in hand. They are not interchangeable, and do not always go hand in hand. In a number of male DSDs, the testes function fine but remain undescended, and the penis does not develop fully, properly or at all. With medical assistance, some persons with certain XY DSDs who don't have penises can father children.

As a general rule, I think it's best to leave people with rare medical conditions over which they have no control out of the convo about trans completely. That's what people with DSDs have repeatedly asked TRAs to do. People with DSDs have a hard enough time as it is. I don't see the purpose in using them to try to score points in discussions and debates that have nothing to do with them.

I also object to the way that people who have not put in the time & work to become well-informed about DSDs often breezily make blanket statements about them that are often misleading or completely inaccurate - and mean-spirited to boot. To me, this only adds to the stigmatization, othering and monstering that persons with DSDs already face.

However, in convos about women's sport, the nature of XY DSDs are pertinent and require frank and detailed discussion - and IMO the actions of particular individual athletes with XY DSDs are fair game for criticism. Because the fact is, a large number of adults with XY DSDs like Caster Semenya and Margaret Niyonsaba have made the choice to "weaponize" their DSDs and use them knowingly to cheat in women's sports. Moreover, some athletes with XY DSDs have used their rare conditions to argue that female people don't deserve fair play in sports, and that eligibility for female competition should be based not on biological sex but on "gender identity," how "feminine" individual athletes claim to feel, and whether they were raised (or claim to have been raised) as females as in the landmark legal cases of XY athletes Maria José Martínez-Patiño and Dutee Chand, both of whom have some degree of AIS.

[–]one1won 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For CAIS information: https://www.saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/74vj/cais_complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome/

Perhaps you would like s/GCdebatesQT for, well, debating issues.

[–]lefterfield 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You need to make sure you really know the subject before you start lecturing others. CAIS individuals do not have penises. They should be considered as their observed sex at birth, or whichever sex they were raised as, except in the case of sports, as said by another poster.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (14 children)

They don't have penises. They have testes (male gonads).

They should be considered as the sex they are, yes, which is male. Even if they were "raised as female", they are male.

Sex isn't about what one is raised as.

[–]lefterfield 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

They are genetically male. They can still be considered women, even if their experiences will not be identical to those who are female. Sex is about biological determination based on many factors. CAIS individuals are unique cases. So, why, exactly, are you so obsessed with them?

[–]HOWABOUTNO 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

Sex is about a biological determination based on many factors, factors that do not involve "identifying" as female, or "being raised as female".

CAIS are male. They have testes. And no ovaries. Just because they "pass as" women on the outside doesn't make them women.

I'm obsessed with them because I'm done with people like you calling disordered men "women" or "female".

Disordered men are not women. They will never be women. They are disordered men.

They are "unique cases"? Either consider the non-disordered men that "pass as" women on the outside after all their surgeries women (and while you're at it, consider all humans that are born with a disorder that affects their legs, hearts, etc, non-human or some other specie, especially if they "identify" as another specie, because apparently all it takes for "gender identity" to be "valid" is a disorder), or take a few steps back and realize you're arbitrarily making DSDs an exception when they aren't. All DSDs are either male or female. And the sex has nothing to do with what one "identifies" as, how one is raised, and what society claims one is.

[–]lefterfield 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No one encountering most CAIS individuals would mistake them for men. Many of them may not even be aware of their condition until puberty, or later. It is an irrelevant point to keep harping on and to keep comparing to other nonsense like "identifying as other species" - that is incredibly offensive. These people have a genetic defect, they are not insane. And DSDs are not an "arbitrary" exception. They are usually identified as females at birth. I don't give a fuck what they "identify" as, their doctor can make the determination better than you or the voices in anyone's head.

They are genetically male. Admit that you're making insane, offensive comparisons because you have no legitimate argument or nuanced understanding of DSDs, or shut up and go away.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

I don't care about what's "offensive" and what they and their doctors think they are. Most doctors in the west are too brainwashed by the "gender identity" agenda to be trusted. And the doctors in non-western countries are too conservative they think a woman is "fulfilling certain roles" or "looking a certain way". Can't be trusted.

The reason people mistake CAIS for women is because they "pass as" women on the outside. They are disordered men that "pass". Their disordered male bodies make people think they are women. Doesn't mean they are women.

DSD is a disorder like any other disorder. People with disorders that affect their other organs aren't less human even if they "identify" as other species.

CAIS aren't less of a man even if they "identify" as a woman.

No one encountering most CAIS individuals would mistake them for men

It's not "mistaking them for men". CAIS are men. Can't be mistaken for what they are. They are mistaken for women.

CAIS individuals are men, many of whom might not be aware of it, because society is too stupid to run DNA tests on kids and teenagers and see if they have DSD conditions, and if they do, to let them know what their sex is.

DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, whatever device is used to see inside the body, should be mandatory for kids and teenagers. That way, CAIS wouldn't be like "omg I didn't know I'm a man". And they don't get to hide that information. They don't get to make people think they are women when all they are is disordered men.

CAIS would be aware of their maleness at some point, because they have no uterus, ovaries, etc. They can not get periods. They would learn they are not women. There is no excuse. They hide their maleness, that's what they do. They are liars, like "trans women" are.

Admit you're defending "gender identity" agenda in a gender critical sub using a bunch of "disorders".

[–]lefterfield 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You are obsessed with this well beyond what is normal and healthy. These people have nothing to do with transgenderism, and you're using them as a tool the same way the trans cult does. Not everyone has access to DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, or w/e for their kids, and mandating it is authoritarian bullcrap that would be useless and unnecessary for 99.99% of all people. So no, that's completely ridiculous.

Admit you're defending "gender identity" agenda in a gender critical sub using a bunch of "disorders".

"A bunch of". Nope, just one, sweetheart. CAIS. Not DSD. Not every possible disorder of sexual development anyone could have. Not transgenderism. Not gender identity. Nor have I defended the need for ANY person with a DSD to play women's sports. Admit you're a lunatic fixated on a tiny fraction of people with a medical condition.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

Not everyone has access to DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, or w/e for their kids, and mandating it is authoritarian bullcrap that would be useless and unnecessary for 99.99% of all people. So no, that's completely ridiculous.

Which is why the access to DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, etc should be free (say hello to free "health care", or whatever it is you want to call it)

And how on earth do you know 99.99% of the population don't have DSDs when noone bothers with DNA tests, ulta sound, MRI, etc on the 99.99% of the population?

I'm fine with authoritarianism if it means I don't have to hear a disordered male claim he's a woman, or a disordered female claim she's a man

Admit you're a lunatic fixated on a tiny fraction of people with a medical condition.

Or admit you're the lunatic who calls disordered men "woman" to push some agenda

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think this all should go to debate sub, and stopped here.

Almost of all DSD conditions have serious health issues tied with them, except few.

I'm fine with authoritarianism

It was already clear from your usage of TRA methods and being anti-science.

agenda

Reality is not an agenda. Being strongly anti-reality from "other side" is not countering anti-reality from TRA. It complementing them and proves their ideas.

Also, how are you getting 5-6 upvotes in first few seconds after posting a post?

[–]HOWABOUTNO 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Say the anti-science individuals.

You're the ones who claim CAIS are women eventhough they have testes, and no female sex organs on the inside, no uterus, no ovaries, nothing, just because they "identify" as women or "pass as" women on the outside. You sound like TRAs.

Reality is not an agenda.

Your claims are agendas because they are not based on reality.

how are you getting 5-6 upvotes in first few seconds after posting a post?

How are you getting an upvote 10 minutes after posting your comment?

[–]soundsituation 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No one encountering most CAIS individuals would mistake them for men.

Things have gotten heated in here and I don't want to pile on, but I'd like to respond to this part of your comment just to wonder out loud whether whether Olympic-level DSD athletes are representative of most DSD individuals appearance-wise, because just looking at the Tokyo games, two of the three DSD athletes (Margaret Niyonsaba and Beatrice Masilingi) are, in my opinion, easily identifiable as male. Christine Mboma looks more ambiguous.

Anyway, perhaps it's a trivial point but I still wonder.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd like to respond to this part of your comment just to wonder out loud whether whether Olympic-level DSD athletes are representative of most DSD individuals appearance-wise, because just looking at the Tokyo games, two of the three DSD athletes (Margaret Niyonsaba and Beatrice Masilingi) are, in my opinion, easily identifiable as male. Christine Mboma looks more ambiguous.

Please stop conflating the DSDs that XY athletes like Niyonsaba, Masilingi and Mboma have with XY CAIS. None of them have XY CAIS! XY CAIS is not on the list of XY DSDs subject to the current World Athletics' DSD regulations. To be subject to the current regulations pertaining to DSD athletes' eligibility in women's competition, athletes have to have one of a small handful of XY DSDs - all of which are characterized by having male-typical responsiveness to the testosterone their testes pump out. In other words, these athletes are not "androgen insensitive." Whereas persons with CAIS are androgen insensitive, ostensibly completely. The acronym CAIS stands for "complete androgen insensitivity syndrome."

The unfortunate umbrella term "DSD" applies to approximately 40 different, discrete conditions that are distinct from one another in numerous ways. These diverse conditions and the persons who have them can't all be spoken about and lumped together as if they were all one and the same.

whether Olympic-level DSD athletes are representative of most DSD individuals appearance-wise

Your attempt to generalize about what "most DSD individuals" look like based on "Olympic-level DSD athletes" who all have a small number of XY DSDs characterized by testes, male levels of T and male-typical sensitivity to to T, aka male physiology, ignores that a) DSDs occur in females as much as in males; and b) most people with DSDs have outward appearances that fit in the normal range of what males and females normally look like.

Only a small handful of DSDs result in genital anatomy that might be ambiguous-looking at birth, and thus might cause a person to be mistakenly sexed. The vast majority of people in the world with DSDs are males and females with late-onset or non-classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia, which doesn't manifest until puberty or adulthood, and they all look like entirely normal males and females.

Persons with MRKH, Turner's, Swyer's, etc don't look anything like most of the XY athletes now competing, or who have competed, in women's elite-level athletics like Niyonsaba, Masilingi, Mboma, Seyni, Wambui and Semenya. Persons with the particular XY DSDs these athletes have are not representative of all persons with DSDs in their appearance, or in other ways either. If you took away the hair extensions, nail lacquer and other accoutrements that these XY athletes sometimes rely on to give them a more "feminine" appearance when competing in women's sports, they all look like typical guys - including Mboma, who has a body shape like CeCe Telfer's, not like a girl or woman of or near Mboma's age. In the photos of themselves taken off the field that these athletes post on social media, they tend to look like typical guys whose sex no one would question.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are they CAIS, though? I'm really not sure, and there's a lot of other DSD conditions they could have. Most of the pictures I've seen of CAIS individuals, they look like women. Regardless, I think there's an argument to be made that they shouldn't play in women's sports. Appearances aside, they aren't the same as women and their overrepresentation in many sports would make me suspect they have an unfair advantage.

[–]ColoredTwice 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They all have 5ARD condition. They are androgynous until puberty, but clearly male after puberty. Condition is rare, but few African countries are known for searching specifically for this condition in kids, to raise those kids "for female sports".

CAIS have female phenotype. Even when naked you would not say they are not women, as they have vulva, vaginal opening and clitoris-like structure.

[–]Kai_Decadence 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I remember watching a little briefing on CAIS and if I remember correctly, they do possess female sex organs. The complication that comes up with them is that they are also born with internal gonads but they're non-functional and are dormant.

I don't think there's been a condition where a person born with male genitalia, was also born with a uterus.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

they are also born with internal gonads but they're non-functional and are dormant.

Kai, the testes of persons with CAIS are NOT "non-functional" or "dormant." They work fine in performing one of the main tasks of testes, which is to produce testosterone. Persons with CAIS produce normal amounts of testosterone from their testes - and some of them produce T in levels that are much higher than males normally do.

However, because their androgen receptors don't work, their bodies can't use the T their testes produce - and the T gets converted into estrogen through a process known as aromatization.

It's not accurate to say that persons with CAIS "do possess female sex organs." They don't have ovaries, Fallopian tubes, a uterus & cervix, or a fully developed vagina. They have the lower portion of a vagina, and their vaginas have different properties to a normal woman's vagina. Persons with CAIS historically had vaginoplasties to create a cavity that was capable of having penetrative sex with a penis. Today, the custom of routinely doing vaginoplasties on persons with CAIS is going out of fashion. However, these persons still have to dilate if they want to have PIV, and my understanding is that they have to use exogenous lubrication as well. Coz whereas regular vaginas are muscular tubes that are highly elastic and lined with special mucous membranes, the so-called vaginas of persons with CAIS do not possess these characteristics.

Males with PMDS have rudimentary internal Mullerian structures, including an undeveloped uterus.

[–]Kai_Decadence 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But still, women with CAIS still develop as a female despite the genital complications from what I've read which is why it's best to just call them women because they are more than likely gonna go through life experience as a young female child no?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you go by outward appearance alone, yes persons with CAIS develop a largely female-looking phenotype. But that doesn't mean they have "female sex organs" as you claimed. By making that statement, you appear to be taking a very male view of what female humans are, implying that all it takes to be female is not to have a penis or balls and to have some kind of hole for males to stick their penises into.

I have no problem calling persons with CAIS girls and women. But still, it's not true that they "develop as a female" the way you say. They are in a unique position, very different to standard males and standard females. It insults them and us female people both to say they are exactly like us.

And no, persons with CAIS do not go through the same life experience as a female persons do, not even in childhood. Sure, there will be many similarities. But there will be many differences too.

For example, one of the major childhood milestones for girls is getting your period and learning to deal with it, and learning to cope with all the myriad changes that occur in the female body over the course of the 28-day ovulation-menstrual cycle. The average age for first period is shortly after turning 12, but many girls get theirs at 11, 10 or even 9. In my family, all the girls got our periods at 10 or just after turning 11. It's only considered too early and abnormal if a girl starts menstruating before age 8.

Periods and the monthly cycle are huge issues in girls' lives, and our lives once we grow up and become women - but persons with CAIS will never have to deal with any of that. Because their estrogen comes from converted testosterone made by their testes, persons with CAIS have the same steady state of hormones day after day - which is nothing like what females go through. Just as they will never menstruate, experience menstrual flooding and leakage, have cramps or have to deal with the passage of alarmingly large blood clots from their "vaginas," persons with CAIS will never go through the sorts of changes - which often include mood fluctuations, bloating, breast tenderness, insomnia, appetite changes, marked differences in libido and sexual response, etc - that girls and women go through each month as a matter of course.

Similarly, once they become sexually active, persons with CAIS who have sex with males never have to worry about contraception or deal with an unplanned pregnancy, which are issues that weigh very much on the minds of sexually active girls & women with female repro organs who have sex with males. Persons with CAIS have to deal with infertility, but so do many bog standard XX women with the full set of female sex organs. Moreover, in dealing with infertility, persons with CAIS won't have to go through any of the testing & treatments that are pushed on XX women, often to the detriment of their physical health and mental wellbeing. No one will ever suggest that someone with CAIS should consider undergoing grueling drug regimens and invasive procedures to harvest her eggs, withstand interventions like IVF and IUI or at-home "artificial insemination," or consider using donor eggs.

Persons with CAIS also don't go through menopause and all the changes that brings both during the menopause years (and before them during peri-menopause) and in the decades afterwards. The life experience of persons with CAIS is actually very different to the the life experience of us "standard issue" women with female reproductive systems and female physiology.

There are many other differences in the life experiences I could list, but I think I've made my point.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

Quoting myself in the post:

I have read CAIS individuals do not have ovaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Physical

The gonads in these women are not ovaries, but instead, are testes; during the embryonic stage of development, testes form in an androgen-independent process that occurs due to the influence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Immature sperm cells in the testes do not mature past an early stage, as sensitivity to androgens is required in order for spermatogenesis to complete

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/

Girls with CAIS do not have a womb or ovaries

If CAIS individuals do not have ovaries, and have testes or penises instead, as said above, they are not girls, women, or female. They are boys, men or male.

They happen to "pass as" women on the outside. But they are not female.

And I think there is a condition where someone with male genitals has uterus. It's called Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome: https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/persistent-mullerian-duct-syndrome/#:~:text=Persistent%20M%C3%BCllerian%20duct%20syndrome%20is,which%20are%20female%20reproductive%20organs%20.

Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome is a disorder of sexual development that affects males. Males with this disorder have normal male reproductive organs , though they also have a uterus and fallopian tubes, which are female reproductive organs

[–]Kai_Decadence 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Welp the more you know! I'm genuinely surprised there is such a condition of a male being born with a uterus and Fallopian tubes but just like CAIS, it's a very very rare condition so it's not one we have to typically worry about for most citizens. Well "worry" is probably not the best word but I hope you know what I mean. Like trans-identified people are not made up of women with CAIS or men with PMDS

[–]xandit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Being born a fully functional male or female is not a sex disorder, which is what trans are trying to imply, that it is and they need to transition to fix it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, it's important to emphasize that males with PMDS have normal male genitals - meaning a penis with male urethra and testes - and all the other male repro organs like prostate and vas deferens too. Though their testes might be undescended, their testes are normally formed and functional in terms of producing male levels of T; and whilst some persons with PMDS have fertility issues, others produce viable sperm as well.

In other words, males with PMDS have a couple of extra parts they're not supposed to have because there was a failure in utero in the signals that should have caused disappearance of Mullerian structures. But they are not missing any repro organs, nor do they necessarily have marked - or any - physiological dysfunction.

Also, the uterus and Fallopian tubes that males with PMDS are usually rudimentary, under-developed or undeveloped and undersized.

https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/8435/persistent-mullerian-duct-syndrome