Do individuals with CAIS have female sex organs? Or do they have male sex organs?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GenderCritical

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[–]HOWABOUTNO 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

Sex is about a biological determination based on many factors, factors that do not involve "identifying" as female, or "being raised as female".

CAIS are male. They have testes. And no ovaries. Just because they "pass as" women on the outside doesn't make them women.

I'm obsessed with them because I'm done with people like you calling disordered men "women" or "female".

Disordered men are not women. They will never be women. They are disordered men.

They are "unique cases"? Either consider the non-disordered men that "pass as" women on the outside after all their surgeries women (and while you're at it, consider all humans that are born with a disorder that affects their legs, hearts, etc, non-human or some other specie, especially if they "identify" as another specie, because apparently all it takes for "gender identity" to be "valid" is a disorder), or take a few steps back and realize you're arbitrarily making DSDs an exception when they aren't. All DSDs are either male or female. And the sex has nothing to do with what one "identifies" as, how one is raised, and what society claims one is.

[–]lefterfield 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No one encountering most CAIS individuals would mistake them for men. Many of them may not even be aware of their condition until puberty, or later. It is an irrelevant point to keep harping on and to keep comparing to other nonsense like "identifying as other species" - that is incredibly offensive. These people have a genetic defect, they are not insane. And DSDs are not an "arbitrary" exception. They are usually identified as females at birth. I don't give a fuck what they "identify" as, their doctor can make the determination better than you or the voices in anyone's head.

They are genetically male. Admit that you're making insane, offensive comparisons because you have no legitimate argument or nuanced understanding of DSDs, or shut up and go away.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

I don't care about what's "offensive" and what they and their doctors think they are. Most doctors in the west are too brainwashed by the "gender identity" agenda to be trusted. And the doctors in non-western countries are too conservative they think a woman is "fulfilling certain roles" or "looking a certain way". Can't be trusted.

The reason people mistake CAIS for women is because they "pass as" women on the outside. They are disordered men that "pass". Their disordered male bodies make people think they are women. Doesn't mean they are women.

DSD is a disorder like any other disorder. People with disorders that affect their other organs aren't less human even if they "identify" as other species.

CAIS aren't less of a man even if they "identify" as a woman.

No one encountering most CAIS individuals would mistake them for men

It's not "mistaking them for men". CAIS are men. Can't be mistaken for what they are. They are mistaken for women.

CAIS individuals are men, many of whom might not be aware of it, because society is too stupid to run DNA tests on kids and teenagers and see if they have DSD conditions, and if they do, to let them know what their sex is.

DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, whatever device is used to see inside the body, should be mandatory for kids and teenagers. That way, CAIS wouldn't be like "omg I didn't know I'm a man". And they don't get to hide that information. They don't get to make people think they are women when all they are is disordered men.

CAIS would be aware of their maleness at some point, because they have no uterus, ovaries, etc. They can not get periods. They would learn they are not women. There is no excuse. They hide their maleness, that's what they do. They are liars, like "trans women" are.

Admit you're defending "gender identity" agenda in a gender critical sub using a bunch of "disorders".

[–]lefterfield 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You are obsessed with this well beyond what is normal and healthy. These people have nothing to do with transgenderism, and you're using them as a tool the same way the trans cult does. Not everyone has access to DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, or w/e for their kids, and mandating it is authoritarian bullcrap that would be useless and unnecessary for 99.99% of all people. So no, that's completely ridiculous.

Admit you're defending "gender identity" agenda in a gender critical sub using a bunch of "disorders".

"A bunch of". Nope, just one, sweetheart. CAIS. Not DSD. Not every possible disorder of sexual development anyone could have. Not transgenderism. Not gender identity. Nor have I defended the need for ANY person with a DSD to play women's sports. Admit you're a lunatic fixated on a tiny fraction of people with a medical condition.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

Not everyone has access to DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, or w/e for their kids, and mandating it is authoritarian bullcrap that would be useless and unnecessary for 99.99% of all people. So no, that's completely ridiculous.

Which is why the access to DNA tests, ultra sound, MRI, etc should be free (say hello to free "health care", or whatever it is you want to call it)

And how on earth do you know 99.99% of the population don't have DSDs when noone bothers with DNA tests, ulta sound, MRI, etc on the 99.99% of the population?

I'm fine with authoritarianism if it means I don't have to hear a disordered male claim he's a woman, or a disordered female claim she's a man

Admit you're a lunatic fixated on a tiny fraction of people with a medical condition.

Or admit you're the lunatic who calls disordered men "woman" to push some agenda

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think this all should go to debate sub, and stopped here.

Almost of all DSD conditions have serious health issues tied with them, except few.

I'm fine with authoritarianism

It was already clear from your usage of TRA methods and being anti-science.

agenda

Reality is not an agenda. Being strongly anti-reality from "other side" is not countering anti-reality from TRA. It complementing them and proves their ideas.

Also, how are you getting 5-6 upvotes in first few seconds after posting a post?

[–]HOWABOUTNO 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Say the anti-science individuals.

You're the ones who claim CAIS are women eventhough they have testes, and no female sex organs on the inside, no uterus, no ovaries, nothing, just because they "identify" as women or "pass as" women on the outside. You sound like TRAs.

Reality is not an agenda.

Your claims are agendas because they are not based on reality.

how are you getting 5-6 upvotes in first few seconds after posting a post?

How are you getting an upvote 10 minutes after posting your comment?

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

10 minutes is not 2 seconds.

just because they "identify" as women or "pass as" women on the outside.

They don't identify as women. In most cases they do not even know that they have such condition. And you will never know - unless they say it to you.

Why everything is an agenda to you?

And anyways, in other your answers (including ones to me) you shown complete ignorance and no knowledge about situation, yet insisted on calling those people with slurs and asking to imprison or kill them alltogether, even thought they are an extremely minority among people, who you would never even know about their condition if they will not say it to you, with just few cases per tens of millions of people. Yet, you hate them for some reason and speak only about them, instead of focusing on the real argumen of "manly looking men declaring to be women".

It is not a discussion sub. I'll stop responding to you from now on.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

And anyways, in other your answers (including ones to me) you shown complete ignorance and no knowledge about situation, yet insisted on calling those people with slurs and asking to imprison or kill them alltogether, even thought they are an extremely minority among people, who you would never even know about their condition if they will not say it to you, with just few cases per tens of millions of people. Yet, you hate them for some reason and speak only about them, instead of focusing on the real argumen of "manly looking men declaring to be women".

I hate CAIS because they are males, and people like you are ready to push the lie that disordered men are women, just because they "pass as" women on the outside and noone would know if they didn't reveal their maleness.

It is not a discussion sub. I'll stop responding to you from now on.

Please, by all means, stop wasting my time.

[–]soundsituation 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No one encountering most CAIS individuals would mistake them for men.

Things have gotten heated in here and I don't want to pile on, but I'd like to respond to this part of your comment just to wonder out loud whether whether Olympic-level DSD athletes are representative of most DSD individuals appearance-wise, because just looking at the Tokyo games, two of the three DSD athletes (Margaret Niyonsaba and Beatrice Masilingi) are, in my opinion, easily identifiable as male. Christine Mboma looks more ambiguous.

Anyway, perhaps it's a trivial point but I still wonder.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd like to respond to this part of your comment just to wonder out loud whether whether Olympic-level DSD athletes are representative of most DSD individuals appearance-wise, because just looking at the Tokyo games, two of the three DSD athletes (Margaret Niyonsaba and Beatrice Masilingi) are, in my opinion, easily identifiable as male. Christine Mboma looks more ambiguous.

Please stop conflating the DSDs that XY athletes like Niyonsaba, Masilingi and Mboma have with XY CAIS. None of them have XY CAIS! XY CAIS is not on the list of XY DSDs subject to the current World Athletics' DSD regulations. To be subject to the current regulations pertaining to DSD athletes' eligibility in women's competition, athletes have to have one of a small handful of XY DSDs - all of which are characterized by having male-typical responsiveness to the testosterone their testes pump out. In other words, these athletes are not "androgen insensitive." Whereas persons with CAIS are androgen insensitive, ostensibly completely. The acronym CAIS stands for "complete androgen insensitivity syndrome."

The unfortunate umbrella term "DSD" applies to approximately 40 different, discrete conditions that are distinct from one another in numerous ways. These diverse conditions and the persons who have them can't all be spoken about and lumped together as if they were all one and the same.

whether Olympic-level DSD athletes are representative of most DSD individuals appearance-wise

Your attempt to generalize about what "most DSD individuals" look like based on "Olympic-level DSD athletes" who all have a small number of XY DSDs characterized by testes, male levels of T and male-typical sensitivity to to T, aka male physiology, ignores that a) DSDs occur in females as much as in males; and b) most people with DSDs have outward appearances that fit in the normal range of what males and females normally look like.

Only a small handful of DSDs result in genital anatomy that might be ambiguous-looking at birth, and thus might cause a person to be mistakenly sexed. The vast majority of people in the world with DSDs are males and females with late-onset or non-classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia, which doesn't manifest until puberty or adulthood, and they all look like entirely normal males and females.

Persons with MRKH, Turner's, Swyer's, etc don't look anything like most of the XY athletes now competing, or who have competed, in women's elite-level athletics like Niyonsaba, Masilingi, Mboma, Seyni, Wambui and Semenya. Persons with the particular XY DSDs these athletes have are not representative of all persons with DSDs in their appearance, or in other ways either. If you took away the hair extensions, nail lacquer and other accoutrements that these XY athletes sometimes rely on to give them a more "feminine" appearance when competing in women's sports, they all look like typical guys - including Mboma, who has a body shape like CeCe Telfer's, not like a girl or woman of or near Mboma's age. In the photos of themselves taken off the field that these athletes post on social media, they tend to look like typical guys whose sex no one would question.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are they CAIS, though? I'm really not sure, and there's a lot of other DSD conditions they could have. Most of the pictures I've seen of CAIS individuals, they look like women. Regardless, I think there's an argument to be made that they shouldn't play in women's sports. Appearances aside, they aren't the same as women and their overrepresentation in many sports would make me suspect they have an unfair advantage.

[–]ColoredTwice 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They all have 5ARD condition. They are androgynous until puberty, but clearly male after puberty. Condition is rare, but few African countries are known for searching specifically for this condition in kids, to raise those kids "for female sports".

CAIS have female phenotype. Even when naked you would not say they are not women, as they have vulva, vaginal opening and clitoris-like structure.