How do you balance being Gender Critical but not becoming outright hateful of trans people?

submitted by hmmdmm from self.GenderCritical

I don't hate trans people, and I support their right to live healthy, happy lives. I just don't agree with them taking over women's spaces, or having to say things like "people with vaginas" instead of women. However, as I've become more aware of GC, I find I've also become less tolerant of trans activism. I mentally write people off who say things like "people with penises" or "people who menstruate". I dislike when trans issues are inappropriately injected into women's health discussions. I hate how voicing opposition to these types of things can lead to you getting cancelled.

That being said, I recognize that there probably are quite a few non-radical trans people out there who aren't responsible for this craziness. How do you balance being GC, but not anti-trans?

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[–]denverkris 22 insightful - 22 fun22 insightful - 21 fun23 insightful - 22 fun -  (0 children)

I try to be equally hateful to all people, not just trans people.

[–]lefterfield 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I take the philosophy of trying to meet people where they are and understanding that most of them are in the position that I was 9 years ago. I'll use the language of whoever I'm speaking to(if the person is at all willing to have a conversation - a lot of TRAs aren't) and just pick at the edges a little, encourage them to think about what they're saying and to do more research. You can't change someone's mind if they tune out your words. I deal with TRAs pretty much daily, because of my interest groups and liberal beliefs, so I have to be careful how much I say and at what time.

I don't give "anti-trans" much thought, though. I don't hate anyone on a personal level, just some people have bad ideas or harmful beliefs. Everyone is still human, and still entitled to basic respect and equal protection under the law. That core philosophy is never going to change for me, no matter how much abuse or name-calling I get in return. I'm better than them, so I don't have to dehumanize them.

Also, I don't believe that 'trans' as a concept exists. People are male or female.

[–]aldoushuxleyghost 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For me it is really helpful to engage in the social media accounts of "terfy" trans people (Buck Angel, Rose of Dawn, Blaire White etc.) It grounds me and keeps things in perspective.

[–]TruBi 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s difficult because I find the idea of transitioning from one sex to another as sexist. However, I’m always telling myself if that they call themselves a transvestite (cross dresser) instead of transgender then I’d have no problem whatsoever. I wouldn’t hate a transvestite person simply for being a cross dresser. I also think that all transgender people are in fact transvestites and nothing more. I’ve learned I hate the idea of trans ideology and the reasons they justify themselves. I don’t hate trans people. But, I do judge a lot of them for being hateful towards women, being incredibly sexist, homophobic, porn addicted, fetishistic, and rude.

All in all, I hate trans ideology and not the person. Rather, I judge based on the person they are. I hope I made sense.

[–]yousaythosethings 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like to listen to the stories of those who are willing to be open and share. The movement is filled with so many disingenuous, mentally ill, and/opportunistic liars and LARPERs, but there are real human beings in there. Additionally those who are open and introspective can provide you valuable insight. Like that dude who posted the highly detailed firsthand account of having autogynephilia. Like I thought I got it before, but I didn’t and it was truly worth hearing. Plus you have to know the mindset of those you are fighting against.

[–]buttbuttinator 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm able to balance being atheist and not becoming outright hateful of Christians (or any religion).

I'm able to balance thinking that cigarettes are hard drugs that have inexplicably stayed socially acceptable and not becoming hateful of smokers.

I'm able to balance thinking that DnD 5e is an unsatisfying compromise between narrative and gamist systems and not becoming hateful of 5e players.

In all other fields I'm capable of thinking that other people are delusional and still respecting them as people and friends. Even when some people use similar delusional beliefs to make the world a worse place I don't hold everyone with similar kinds of beliefs responsible for it.

[–]MezozoicGay 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It is different, as smockers don't want all air to be replaced with smoke, DnD 5e players don't want all games being merged with DnD 5e.

Christianity is similar case to TRA, but they aren't as active anymore and don't have that much power in media anymore.

[–]buttbuttinator 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There are some smokers who do think that they should be allowed to smoke anywhere and everywhere including hospitals and playgrounds. There are some DnD 5e players who think that no one should play any other RPGs because it dilutes the market share.

And there are some trans people who think that they should be allowed to force people to believe that they have magical gendered souls that were put in the wrong body and that they can fix it with surgery.

But there are also some smokers who understand that its a filthy habit that they should hide. There are some 5e players who understand that other systems offer valuable experiences. There are some trans people who understand that gender identity is nothing more than a fantasy and that validating the fantasy is not more important than people's rights.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah smoking is a weird example, lots of smokers behave worse than TRAs. But not all of them are so disrespectful just as not all trans people are nuts, see Blair White.

[–]buttbuttinator 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, it always bewilders me when a smoker will insist that it’s a harmless habit that shouldn’t be interfered with and then, in the same breath, reacting with murderous rage at the mere idea that someone might try to prevent them from having their smokes wherever they want.

[–]SharpTomorrow 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's like asking how do you balance atheism and working with christian or Muslim people? You don't have to balance anything, being atheist isn't being hateful against Muslims or Christians.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like this answer. As a Christian it's not hard at all to work with people of different faiths, and I genuinely enjoy talking to other people about what they believe. As GC, the only hard part of dealing with trans people is that you can't talk to them about it at all, lest you want to be threatened with sucking girldick or called names or socially ostracized.

[–]bopomofodojo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If they're not personally being whackjobs (and I've known quite a few non-whackjob trans folks), then cool I'm a fan of the person.

I don't hate trans people for trans ideology the same way and for the same reason I don't hate a cult member despite hating the cult. First, it's not always their fault; social and societal pressure, dare I say brainwashing, is powerful as fuck, and the vast majority of people are simply not taught or never learn the skills required to fight it. Second, they can leave the insane ideology and just "be trans" without bringing it up every other word, tramping other peoples' rights, or making it their entire personality, quite easily.

[–]moody_ape 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

it's not hard, really. i'm a critical person and i question pretty much everything. i don't agree with everyone here or in any other GC space, same as i didn't agree with everyone on libfem spaces. being gc has absolutely nothing to do with being hateful. the only thing i hate is patriarchy and its consequences. no one is hateful for believing in material reality.

i believe i am capable of living with diversity of opinions. i'm still a fan of artists/celebrities who are pro trans despite the fact they think jk rowling is tansphobic. because i enjoy their artistic work. and also because i've been there and done that in the past. it makes me really sad they'd hate me for being GC, but than again i'll probably never meet them in person hahaahha

anyway, i think we get too used to our bubble and become intolerant of different opinions. we need to keep in touch with reality, always. especially material reality!

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Word. We all need to be able to differ in opinion and just ecxept that.

I'd argue that a lot of the members on GC here are way better at that than TRAs or SJWs for example tho.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I used to be a TiF and detransitioned, so I try to see it from the angle of "maybe this person is going through what I went through or is going through something heavy".

I was also heavily Catholic, but now I'm atheist.

First, I sympathize, unless they give me a reason otherwise.

However, I still do NOT agree with transitioning. Most TiFs/TiMs just need help. Body dysforia is not easy at all, especially when they're young.

Now, if they are OLDER without body dysforia and say disgusting things about being glad that they transitioned(ex. "Wish I could accidentally get pregnant and menustrate!!" Or trying to invade female/male specific places, ex. Gay club for MEN or WOMEN'S sports)...that's where I have a problem with TiFs/TiMs. They're not seeking help, they're seeking attention.

[–]Wandering_Idiot 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because I don't hate trans people, I hate stupid people. You're a biological male who puts effort into presenting a woman, sure I'll call you she/her/Susan. You're a biological male with a beard wear men's clothing zero effort into presenting as a woman, no I'm calling you he/him/Sean. I'm also going to call any transwoman who claim to menstruate/PMS a fucking moron. My "hate" isn't a dislike of trans people but my intolerance of stupid people and I refuse to humor them with compliance.

[–]Riothamus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's downright galling that TRAs demand the average person to put in more effort to "recognize" a bearded person as a woman than the bearded dude put in himself to pass as the opposite sex. They insult us with this nonsense.

[–]MaleFriedanFan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I re-read the Feminine Mystique but replace the struggling women with involuntarily gender non-conforming men. There is a masculine mystique that is just as poisonous as the feminine mystique. The sort of person who would have been described in old literature as "a little man" often operated under the same sort of constraints, battered on every side by their failures to live up to what was expected of them, but without any framework to deal with this. I imagine the sort of woman described in Betty Friedan's Feminine Mystique, and then imagine that the book was never written. Day-drunk, seeing a therapist and on tranquilizers, struggling with their weight, in a constant cycle of failure when compared against the women they saw in the social media of the day. What would the outlet have been? Friedan describes women who decide that sex is the only thing in life that matters, the only thing that makes them real women. She describes women who on reaching menopause have total breakdowns. When people are despairing, they grab on anything that seems like it will help them.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

As someone who lives in a country where you can be sent to jail for not using the correct pronouns (the US) I would suggest you be careful about using their pronouns because the use of pronouns is one of the first steps trans activists use to takeover.

For instance: around five or so years ago, we in the US were told that TiMs only wanted to pee in women's bathrooms, now every single Democrat in the US Congress backs the Equality Act, which will literally change the legal definition of "sex" to include "gender identity" destroying women's rights and throwing open every women's intimate space to men who self-identify as women.

tl;dr Give trans activists an inch and they'll take your life.

[–]meranii 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Exactly, they started with a few "reasonable" demands (TRAs back then: you'll do it just to be nice, won't you?) and very quickly the scope of their demands has widened and not instantly going along with everything is now hateful and, if they have their way, against the law.

In my country pronoun usage is not yet legally mandated, but they're already trying to sneak in a self-ID law. Probably trying to do the opposite strategy of the UK where despite their campaigning enough opposition grew that self-ID failed.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are /have snuck in self ID laws in many countries with the public knowing nothing. This was their plan.

So, to all you young women thinking you're being nice by using TiMs' pronouns, or allowing them into women's spaces ("It's only a bathroom") please know that you, as women who are OK with certain aspects of trans activism, are being used to soften up the public to the eventual "TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN and real women are uterus havers"

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As someone who lives in a country where you can be sent to jail for not using the correct pronouns (the US) I would suggest you be careful about using their pronouns because the use of pronouns is one of the first steps trans activists use to takeover.

You seem to be suggesting here that in your/my country - the USA - it's the case across the board that people can now be "sent to jail" for "mispronouning." For that to be true, then federal legislation would have to have been passed compelling "correct pronoun use" for trans and gender speshuls in the US, in direct contradiction to the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

That might be what the TRAs are trying to make happen, but I don't think it's happened. Yet.

I know CA passed a law several years ago pertaining to the rights of "LGBT" senior citizens that said long-term care facilities (LTCFs) could be liable for a misdemeanor (with a potential sentence of a fine or up to one year in jail) if they (and their employees) repeatedly and willfully "mispronoun" trans-identified seniors who are resident in those facilities. But I think what that law did was expand the definition of what constitutes harassment and "elder abuse" of senior citizens in long-term care facilities under pre-existing codes pertaining solely to LTCFs housing seniors.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/sep/26/claims-mislead-about-california-bill-forcing-jail-/

But to my knowledge, this is not a general law in CA - it applies only very narrowly to LTCFs serving seniors and only to seniors residing in them (as opposed to, say, trans-identified persons who work in such facilities, or visit them).

Not that I necessarily agree, but I can see how an advocate would make the case that constantly calling a totally dependent senior stuck in a LTCF a term that she or he finds distressing might be considered a form of bullying, harassment, cruelty that would be disallowed under rules that are supposed to provide the elderly and disabled (most seniors in LTCFs count as both disabled and elderly) with special protections against the special sorts of abuses they often are subjected to. There's already a lot abuse, cruelty and bullying that goes on against residents of senior LTCFs as it is - and sometimes mean, twisted people go to work in senior LTCFs so they can be cruel and awful to the vulnerable old people stuck there.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with the CA law - and I definitely don't think anyone should go to jail for using the wrong pronoun - but I do think that LTCFs for seniors should try to show the elderly persons who reside there as much respect as possible. And they should be liable for penalties when they are repeatedly, willfully negligent and cruel to the seniors there. Coz, after all, the LTCFs are those people's homes - and usually their last homes too.

In LTCFs and healthcare generally, there's a long history of patients & residents being dehumanized by the terms the staff use for them - "Dr Smith's lung cancer in bed 4," "the Alzheimer's in Room 6," "the crazy old bat with Tourette's who's always pissing herself," "Mrs Code Brown" and such - so I get where the people who put together this "bill of rights" for "LGBT" seniors in LTCFs are coming from. Coz these people live in the LTCFs, and are usually of limited mobility and with no clout in society, it's not like they can just up and leave if they feel they've been disrespected.

I also know that in 2015 in NYC, the local Human Rights Commission issued "guidance" that expanded the pre-existing NYC Human Rights Law so that it would now be considered a human rights "violation" if certain parties - namely, landlords, business, service providers and program operators - in the city repeatedly failed to use "correct pronouns" for tenants, customers, clients, recipients, beneficiaries; a fine of up to $250K could be assessed for such a "violation."

But as we've learnt from all the "guidance" issued by the Obama admin rewriting Title IX and other federal legislation by fiat, "guidance" issued by bureaucrats (elected or unelected) re-interpreting and expanding laws passed by legislatures previously isn't the same as actually drafting a new law and getting it passed by the appropriate legislative body. Nor is it the same as when a law is re-interpreted/expanded upon by the courts.

At any rate, the NYC law at issue here is a civil one, not a criminal one. And since the new "violation" created by the "guidance" is clearly unconstitutional, it will inevitably get thrown out by the courts once a case involving it is challenged in court. But for that to happen, first a LL or business has to be charged & found guilty of mispronouning someone... and I don't think that has happened yet.

Please share where else (locale, jurisidiction) and under what circumstances mispronouning has been made an offense in the US for which one can be sent to jail. Coz I'd like to learn more and write an article about it.

BTW, here's a very recent article by a TRA in the UCLA Law Review about pronouning more generally, particularly as it pertains to the courts and attorneys. Since the author seems to want "misgendering" to be made a civil perhaps even criminal offense in the US, I think if it actually were the case already that "you can be sent to jail for not using the correct pronouns" in the country you and I and the author share, he or she would've mentioned it.

https://www.uclalawreview.org/misgendering-as-misconduct/

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm only talking about California, and about care workers, but my point was that a person in the US can be sent to jail for misgendering; sorry if that wasn't clear.

It freaks me out: California consistently starts ridiculous shit that spreads worldwide, so the fact that the California legislature passed this misgendering bill with the penalties it did and that Governor Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown, a former presidential candidate, signed it into law, seems ominous to me.

In fact, when I called to protest, Democrats, including Brown’s office, were very rude.

I would suggest to lawmakers that there are other ways to ensure that nursing homes treat their residents with respect, which they should be doing anyway, than the threat of jail and an attack on the First Amendment.

As we all know, laws such as these, while they would probably be thrown out in a US court, have a chilling effect on free speech.

And Scott Wiener's track record suggests that he doesn't give a flying fuck about other nursing home residents, well women nursing home residents, because he was also behind allowing men to self-identify as women and access women's nursing home and longterm disability care facilities, which was also passed into law (it might have been the same bill) by the lovely "Progressives" of the California state legislature and signed into law by uber-liberal Governor Brown.

As I've mentioned, I have traveled and lived in countries without First Amendment free speech protections, and that has made me a devoted defender of the First Amendment. I am going to oppose any attack on free speech, even if others consider it harmless.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't because I am anti-trans.

[–]meranii 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not advocating for violence or taking their actual human rights away (no, "I deserve that you have sex with me" or "I deserve to be in a changing room with you because seeing your nudity validates me!" do not count as human rights), I approach the individual person with an open mind and judge them on their words and actions, what else is there? Trans people get the same basic respect as any other random person, they're not special.

I think women having to always be overly "respectful" (i.e. having to act like trans people are more oppressed than women and their opinions count more) and not ruffling any feathers has really hurt us, in the face of TRAs completely steamrolling large parts of the feminist movement and women's spaces. Women have been far too self-effacing and nice to TRAs, it's brought us to this point. This constant questioning of "how to make sure I'm not being hateful?" (just because we don't want our boundaries crossed and safety risked) isn't something TiMs worry about, that's for sure.

[–]Shesstealthy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just check myself. I don't hate people with depression or diabetes. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. I also never use gender to mean sex. That separates it out for m3.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like Blair White (because of her common sense and IFGAF attitude) and another trans influencer in my country (because she seems like a genuinely nice person), so as long as that's the case all is good.

[–]threefingersam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't. Even the "sane" trans people contribute to trans ideology