Intersectionalism is the worst thing to happen to feminism.

submitted by medium_tomato from self.GenderCritical

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[–]Marsupial 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I don't think you could have been more wrong tbh. It's a fact that there are variances to how women are percieved in different cultures. I believe few women are as priviliged as white women. White women are still hurt by sexism but I believe it is inaccurate to portray it as white women having a more difficult time overall than WoC.
It's not a competition. Feminism includes all women. Different cultures have different problems. Different groups have different ways of oppressing women, it's the misogyny that's universal. White women are exposed to sexism but are NOT the most vulnerable group of women.

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

White refers to so many different ethnicities in so many different countries you can't generalize. Are Ukrainian women privileged?

[–]odateya 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Now come on, don't do that. Black women have globally been spat on for hundreds of years, please list all of these countries where black women's voices are actually valued. If I, a black woman go to Ukraine will I suddenly be swimming in privilege greater than a white woman's? If not there, then please tell me where this magical country is located. White woman are globally regarded as the most "respectable" voices among women and you know that.

[–]Anna_Nym 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you're illustrating the OP's point, though. Sexism disadvantages us all, which is what feminism is supposed to focus on. It's also frustrating to see these conversations get reduced down to black and white, as though those are the only two options in the world (if we're going to play Oppression Olympics, why don't we talk much more about Native American/First Nations women for example? Why don't we acknowledge Asian women's economic success in the US?). I also don't think it makes sense to speak of black and white like these are homogeneous categories when there are many differences within them.

Our goal should be to understand the ways in which our various identities make our experiences of sexism specific. But to do that, we need to actually listen to each other rather than project beliefs onto each other. My personal experiences with feminist spaces is that "intersectional" spaces instead do encourage Oppression Olympics. (The actual concept of "intersectionality" does not do this, but the term has come to be used very differently than what Crenshaw originally wrote about.)

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you American? If so, you live in the richest country on earth. You would never need to go live in the Ukraine because why would you live in an impoverished country with a war next door? You have an American privilege. The vast majority of Ukrainian women will never reach your affluence level and will never get a chance to live in an affluent country. Even poor Americans have a better quality of life than many middle class people around the world. Your American privilege outweighs any racial privilege by a lot.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

WRT black or African women? Yes. WRT Western Europeans, less so.

[–]Realwoman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What is WRT?

What about Albanian women compared with Korean women? Or Russian women compared with African American women?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

With respect to.

Albanians in America would be in a better position than Korean women in America. A Russian white woman will be in a better position to an African American woman. The last one is a no brainer.

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why is everything about them in America? The vast majority of people cannot emigrate to another country. Compare them in their native countries.

And why do you think that Muslims such as Albanians will be better off in America than East Asians?

You can't ignore privilege based on the affluence of the country you live in. People in affluent countries have an enormous privilege and it's rarely acknowledged.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm really only talking about Anglophone, or maaaaybe Anglophone + Western European women. But mainly just American whites. Ukraine would probably feel more foreign to me than South Africa, TBH.

[–]medium_tomato[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh then maybe stop using the word white? We are not a fucking monolith. Just like guess what, black women in the US have a buttload more privilege than women in Africa but no one wants to talk about that now do they?

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean you're the one who doesn't want to talk about intersectionality anymore? I'm sorry if it's confusing to some, but most of us on here are from the US. I don't really feel the need to clarify further when we are all mostly from the US here and speaking English.

[–]Realwoman 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What about women that are white but they're immigrants to the west from poor countries? They stand out, they have accents, they have little in common with white people in the the host country, they didn't grown up using that white privilege, they grew up with parents making $200 a month. Are they privileged?

[–]voi_che_sapete 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You can absolutely generalize in Western countries.

[–]Realwoman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Western countries are very diverse

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I absolutely agree that few women are so privileged as your average white woman. My point is that even though we are very privileged, we have struggles too. I am having a hard time understanding why you think I am turning it into an oppression competition-- I tried to explain as well as I could that I am not. Even if Western white women have a lot of privilege, arguably the most of any women ever, we still have struggles. Of course every kind of person will have different kinds of struggles. They aren't the same, and we shouldn't try to rank them. But we should support each other in our mutual struggle for radical change, to be respected as individual humans and not simply the woman of some man.

The double edged nature of white female privilege is the main struggle for white women, to my mind. It offers a lot of protection, but in order to use it, we have to perform femininity. That keeps us from achieving our goal of liberation.

It's really hard to notice the things that make up your privilege-- but stuff like how easily we cry, since we are talking about that. That feels natural, because we've been socialized to perform this. But only babies and toddlers cry more than an American white woman. Every white American girl knew who was crying in the bathroom at a school function or whatever, and probably was that girl at one time or another. It's performing femininity, but it feels really natural, very comforting, and it's very hard to not cry when you are used to crying whenever you want. I should know, I have always been an infamous crybaby. It has taken me a lot of work to get to the point where I don't cry every time I say no to something. Do I mean for my crying to manipulate people into doing what I want? No. But is my crying manipulative? Yes.

Radical change starts with us, and it's never comfortable or easy. How can we expect men to respect us as fellow humans if we resort to childish, manipulative tactics like crying? How can we expect them to change things about themselves, if we refuse to change anything about ourselves? I get that it's hard, and it's not our fault we were raised this way. It isn't fair to have to work so hard to curb such comforting habits we've had since birth. But it's our responsibility to fight for ourselves, and this is just one example of a way that I think intersectionality is important even for privileged women, to target the kinds of radical changes that we need to make for ourselves. And also to work together to fight for radical change on behalf of each other.

[–]RestingWitchface 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That feels natural, because we've been socialized to perform this.

You can fuck right off with this. I have never received any kind of praise or benefits for crying in front of someone. I have been called "crazy", "manipulative", "weak", and all manner of other things though. The idea that women's crying is manipulative is right out of the misogynist's handbook. My tears are not a "performance", they are in involuntary reaction to feeling a strong emotion.

[–]Lemonade_Masquerade 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fucking THIS. This "women are allowed to cry, men aren't" is such bullshit. We aren't taken seriously when we cry, we are "over emotional" and "hysterical." I mean, sure, I guess little boys are told to "man up" when they cry, but that's about it. The entire world takes men's emotions more seriously than women. After all, look at that sad rapist. He feels bad for getting caught making a mistake! Let's not ruin the poor man's life!

I'm a crier. I can't help it. My mother would spank me if cried about something she deemed "unimportant" and it didn't make me less of a crier as I got older. It just ramps up my anxiety when I feel tears coming on now and I cry harder because I get more upset by the fact that I am crying.

[–]immersang 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm a crier. I can't help it. My mother would spank me if cried about something she deemed "unimportant" and it didn't make me less of a crier as I got older. It just ramps up my anxiety when I feel tears coming on now and I cry harder because I get more upset by the fact that I am crying.

Same. My mom wouldn't spank me but she also couldn't deal with it and would snap at me to "stop wailing". It didn't change anything. If I would have been able to basically switch a button to stop the waterworks from starting, I would have done so in a heartbeat.