No impersonation from ovarit accounts, to keep progress flowing

immersang · 2025-04-15T14:18:27+00:00

Same username as on ovarit, but I had already been using it here years ago after they had kicked us off reddit.

immersang · 2024-11-07T10:55:12+00:00

Agree to disagree. There's absolutely zero evidence for Trump actually caring about this issue or even most issues. I'm pretty certain he's not even personally anti-abortion. He says what he needs to say to win. Do you also believe that he's actually religious because he once held a bible in front of a church?

immersang · 2024-11-06T17:42:42+00:00

You seriously think Trump gives a shit about women's sports or other people's children?

He's used those issues for his campaign, because of course he did. It was a wide open goal, freely provided by the Democrats. It would have been insanely stupid not to use it.

immersang · 2024-11-04T12:08:00+00:00

looks around

Well well...haven't been here in...years. Time flies by.

Hi all!

immersang · 2021-08-08T17:56:35+00:00

I was ready to dismiss this, because usually these days people crying about something being [something]-phobic are exaggerating more often than not. But then I watched the ad. Holy crap. Who green lit this? It should have been bloody obvious that people would read it as homophobic.

immersang · 2021-01-18T14:33:15+00:00

Looks pretty much like most butch Lesbians I know. Which is why I find it surprising that she's apparently straight. (Most trans "gay boys" I've seen online don't pass either, but usually have a bit of a different look.)

immersang · 2021-01-18T13:50:07+00:00

This. Looking at a woman and connecting a new last name to her isn't inherently confusing. Seeing an obvious man and having to force yourself into thinking "she", that's a whole different thing.

immersang · 2020-12-02T19:39:21+00:00

Can we please all contact Netflix and ask them when they were planning to apologize for allowing a straight white man to take away a role from an actual lesbian / bisexual woman?

immersang · 2020-09-18T19:02:34+00:00

I just unsubscribed from her mailing list because of that and I did note down the reason. Doubt she gives a crap, but I felt the need to say it anyway.

immersang · 2020-09-11T09:21:02+00:00

Last I knew Germany also had re-legalized farm animal brothels too.

That's not true. Bestiality is banned in Germany. Please double check these type things before posting them here, it helps no one if false sensational information gets spread.

(That said, I would agree that instead of just a fine, there should be jail time for it.)

immersang · 2020-09-11T09:16:35+00:00

Exactly, the age of consent is 14 if both partners are under 18. Which seems pretty relevant, but of course doesn't fit into the narrative these guys (who are most certainly over 18) want to spread.

immersang · 2020-09-09T16:59:43+00:00

I can't nail it down to one event. As many here, I'm sure, this happened over the time. Many small cuts, so-to-say.

But one thing that really stuck with me and made me realize how this was going into a completely wrong direction was this: There is a drag performer who won the Eurovision Song Contest in 2014. A few years after that I read an article about this performer and then made the mistake to look into the comments. And there were TRAs yelling at people who were correctly calling that person a "he" and being dramatic about how people "just don't GET it".

And with "correctly" I not only mean in the sense of "men cannot be women", but in the sense of "this is a gay man, who himself has mentioned that he identifies as a gay men openly many times, and who just has a stage persona as a drag queen". And these people were trying to trans him, essentially against his own will. (In fact, I think by now he has dumped this stage persona and only performs as himself anymore.)

Yeah, that was one of the moments that stuck with me in the sense of "WHERE is this headed?!".

immersang · 2020-09-03T18:29:30+00:00

Ah got it, thanks!

immersang · 2020-09-03T17:57:06+00:00

As a non-American I have to ask (since I didn't manage to figure it out on my own): What does GSA stand for? Something Gender / Sexuality?

immersang · 2020-09-01T07:21:22+00:00

Sort of on topic: I had an interesting experience the other day. I'm usually someone who's not completely convinced that I can clock any TIM on sight, but I had one on the bus with me, and even though he was wearing a COVID mask (and was one of the young TIMs who otherwise pass fairly well, and while dressed 'feminine' wasn't dressed like a caricature) I could clock him just by the eye and forehead area alone. It was kind of fascinating.

immersang · 2020-08-31T16:19:01+00:00

They weren't white. Watch the video.

I was just thinking that I'm going to save this video for the next time I get told that only stupid white women fall for this crap and black women don't. So much for that fairy tale...

When I watch this it seems to me that the average young black "SJW" is not exactly a lot different than the average white one. (I have to admit I had to chuckle at the fact they even had one with blue hair in this instance.)

immersang · 2020-08-19T10:44:27+00:00

If you haven't already gotten an invite code in the meantime, please ping me. I can send you one.

immersang · 2020-08-04T16:04:05+00:00

As most gay men who fancy themselves TRAs he only ever repeats the "transwomen are women" mantra while "trans men are men" is notably missing.

immersang · 2020-08-04T15:36:12+00:00

Anyone who terfs-out has an initial period of “exploding star” level rage that eventually cools down.

That is such an apt description. :D

immersang · 2020-08-02T14:29:06+00:00

This is fantastic - thanks for sharing it!

Love the Batman analogy especially. :D

immersang · 2020-08-02T14:17:46+00:00

Oh, I hope I didn't come across as antagonistic towards you / your reply. I didn't mean to. It was more a general statement, not necessarily aimed at you specifically (and I admit I could have made the clearer). Because there are these different definitions it's always a bit of a balancing act. Once you say "yes, I think trans is a real thing" many people these days will just interpret that as "I think being born in the wrong body is an actual thing".

I agree, although to be fair, I am pretty sure that this started out as a metaphor and then people started taking it literally, lol.

You are probably right, yes.

And we see where this is getting us. "No one is actually saying that sex is not real" / "No one actually means that" has by now also turned into people literally saying and meaning just that.

immersang · 2020-08-02T06:45:24+00:00

Radfem subs don't think racism is a feminism issue.

That's quite a generalization.

I remember quite a few discussions around racism specifically against black women. (No, racism in itself is not a feminist issue, why should it be? It becomes one when you add the "female" component to it. Otherwise we are back at "Feminism has to be for EVERYONE".)

I also remember when the GC_WOC sub was created that most people in this thread were very supportive of it. Because, of course black women / women of color have different experiences than white women and might want a space to discuss these among themselves. What I don't buy is "this was created because the horribly racist GC mods banned black posters left and right".

immersang · 2020-08-02T06:37:33+00:00

I think it all boils down to the question: "Are there real trans people at all? Is trans a real phenomenon?"

Ah, but to answer that, first you'd have to answer "what does trans actually mean?" in this case.

If it means how ThisSiteIsUnusable defined it, quote:

There are some rare people with a mental problem that expresses itself through serious, life altering distress over their body's sex characteristics. For some of these people surgery and hormone treatments may be their best shot at being able to cope with their mental illness and have a decent quality of life.

...then yes, I'd agree that this is a real thing. It's just much much rarer than the current trans movement makes it out to be.

Or does it mean "people who are actually born in the wrong body"? Then it's a resounding NO. That's not how nature works.

immersang · 2020-07-31T07:45:25+00:00

banning black feminists bit GC mods in their asses

When did GC mods specifically ban black women? That's the first time I hear about this.

immersang · 2020-07-30T11:46:58+00:00

I remember watching the original series so much when I was young. It's just a silly but fun show. I guess I'm ok with never checking this one out.

Same. Reading this thread I guess it's good I stayed away from it (and will keep doing so). It might taint my memories of the original series otherwise.

immersang · 2020-07-30T09:30:01+00:00

Richard Ayoade <3

And LOL @ Emma Watson. Twists herself into a pretzel to be the wokest of them all and still gets singled out for the hate crime of "following on Twitter".

immersang · 2020-07-29T09:33:48+00:00

'"Non-binary" and "gender-fluid" are not real things. Don't talk to me and you won't have to hear that sad truth denying "your experience" from me.'

'See this is cis privilege. Just because it’s not real to you doesn’t mean it’s not real for other people.'

'See, this is trans privilege. Usually when something is not real, it's not real. But when trans people come up with something not real, suddenly everyone has to consider it real.'

Oh burn.

immersang · 2020-07-28T14:59:23+00:00

I really can't believe she and Daniel TRAdcliffe (amongst many...) turned out to be such nonintellectuals.

Eh. I've come across so many "pseudo intellectuals" over the years, doesn't exactly surprise me. The kind of person who can superficially present as an intellectual and usually sees themselves as superior to others, but if you look a bit deeper there's not much there.

immersang · 2020-07-28T14:52:10+00:00

somehow they all eat 800 calories a day and they still gain weight

That was a co-worker of mine from a few years back. Kept loudly proclaiming how all she eats is salad and she's still gaining weight when everyone could see she was obviously lying - at least to us and possibly also to herself. (And not just in the "well, this obviously CAN'T be true" kind of way, but in the actual "everyone can see her eating chocolate and cookies every day" kind of way.)

I still wonder if she thought that claiming it as often as possible and as loudly as possible would somehow make it true.

immersang · 2020-07-28T14:42:35+00:00

I'm kind of amazed how many comments there are completely trashing the original post. That gives me some hope. I didn't think there were that many clear thinking people left on Tumblr.

immersang · 2020-07-28T14:28:17+00:00

Personally, it always reminds me of Mean Girls. "Stop trying to make FETCH happen..."

immersang · 2020-07-28T09:26:11+00:00

It's also extremely offensive. Try replacing "female" with anything around race / ethnicity, proclaim you feel like throwing up when people think you are ethnicity x and see how well that goes down.

immersang · 2020-07-27T17:52:00+00:00

Yeah, but still, at least some decent lesbian representation in games.

I don't know if I agree. On the one hand, sure, at least it's there. On the other hand, it seemed to be written in the typical "how men want to imagine young, soft lesbians" way, with an additional dose of "every woman is secretly bisexual".

immersang · 2020-07-27T11:37:13+00:00

I'm glad to read that, seriously. If this can actually happen in a serious research project it's scary stuff.

immersang · 2020-07-27T10:56:20+00:00

Before the Storm (which was part 2 of the Life is Strange series) was already kind of ridiculous as it featured multiple bi or lesbian teenage girls in small town America that were all totally comfortable with and open about their sexuality. I basically constantly rolled my eyes through that game, and I'm a bisexual woman. So, that was already pretty much wish fulfillment for the gender special aka "transbian" fanbase. (I loved the first game, but apparently it attracted so many gender specials that the developers decided to completely lean into that the second time around. Not surprised they are dropping all pretenses now and go full trans.)

immersang · 2020-07-27T07:29:50+00:00

The Bible being "overall" the Word of God and it being "literally" God's rules is hardly the same thing. Yes, there are fundamentalists who believe you have to take everything in the absolute literal sense. But, I'd say most Christians today see it as not being literal, but open to interpretation. And many actually realize that translating it between different languages over thousands of years also had had an impact. Partly accidentally and partly to push an agenda (see: Mary Magdalene was most certainly not a prostitute).

Thing is, there's room for this in Christianity. You might have Evangelicals who loudly proclaim that they are the only ones who do Christianity right, but that doesn't mean that's actually rooted in Christianity itself.

I'm not sure there's room in Islam for anything else but "This is the LITERAL Word of Allah". As far as I know there isn't. But I'm not an expert, so someone else would have to answer that.

immersang · 2020-07-26T13:52:51+00:00

True. Especially when it comes to romantic story lines the rule seems to be "there has to be one". No matter how pointless to the rest of the story. That used to be different. I have been re-watching Scrubs recently, and the romantic / personal lives story lines outside the hospital were much more organic and felt natural in comparison to many shows or movies you see today.

immersang · 2020-07-25T20:59:25+00:00

Eh? I’m not telling you you cannot have an opinion on the matter. The only thing I was saying is that you tried to argue based on facts that are not true for Germany, i.e. my comment on child labor laws is somehow not true because the US government allows Amish children to work.

I’m simply asking you to understand that not everything is the same in other countries as it is in yours.

immersang · 2020-07-25T13:59:15+00:00

To the point that I gave up on Mindhunter in season 2 when they brought in Anna Torv and 1-made her character useless and 2-brought in a useless Lesbian love story.

To be fair, all the love stories on that show have been pretty pointless. At least Bill Tench's character has a whole arc around his family. But I thought the most unbearably boring and pointless scenes where the ones involving Holden and his girlfriend. I was so glad when they finally broke up.

immersang · 2020-07-25T08:48:45+00:00

Nobody has prevented muslims from believing in Allah in Germany. No religious freedom has been violated.

Exactly. Just when some religious custom is at odds with the law, that's where religious freedom ends. As it should. For example, shechita without sedating the animal first is prohibited under German animal welfare laws.

immersang · 2020-07-25T08:43:46+00:00

I wish US posters here would understand that not every discussion is focused on their country. Honestly, I love your country, but not everything is about you. This is clearly a discussion about the situation in Germany and we do neither have Amish nor homeschooling nor anything else connected to that (such as children apparently working full time).

immersang · 2020-07-25T08:38:53+00:00

It's basically the new "emo", with some additional "not like the other girls". Nothing more.

immersang · 2020-07-24T07:39:02+00:00

Absolutely. Straight men LOVE Joe Rogan. Please please please keep trying to cancel him based on trans nonsense, this is going to be hilarious to watch. Just have to look at the dudes commenting on this tweet alone.

immersang · 2020-07-24T07:21:50+00:00

Right, so if there are people clearly mistreating their children in other ways, forcing them to work for example, then the government also shouldn't do anything, because that's just how these people decide to raise their children? No, we have child labor laws for that and for good reason. Just as we have laws around education to ensure that parents don't just, for example, take their daughters out of school and keep them from receiving an education because their worldview includes "women should just stay home and marry".

The idea that parents always know what's best and should be able to do with their kids however they please is a strange one at best and a highly dangerous one at worst.

immersang · 2020-07-24T06:33:16+00:00

In Canada they'd just take them out of society.

The main reason why I'm against homeschooling on a broad scale, by the way. I do think there are cases where this might be the right approach, and those cases should be looked at very carefully. But giving fundamentalist people a carte blanche to essentially isolate their children from other opinions and influences than their own is dangerous. Case in point: I personally know one person who's all for homeschooling and she's a right wing "Christian" type. (I hate even calling this type of person a Christian but that's how they see themselves, I guess.)

immersang · 2020-07-24T02:17:30+00:00

How does she stay so calm during this bs “debate” that basically boils down to three people constantly misquoting her and going “but why are you so meeeaaaaan to trans people?!” at her. Wow, that makes me mad on her behalf. (I also cannot believe that dude seriously went “As a MAN...” when talking over her at some point.)

immersang · 2020-07-23T10:19:41+00:00

I'm not aware of any fundamentalist Islamic private schools in Germany. There are confessional schools (Catholic and Lutheran mostly in Germany), but they have pretty clear rules of having to be open to anyone. They can't just do and teach what they want. A friend of mine teaches at a Lutheran secondary school, for example, but she's not religious and still allowed to work there. They offer religious services, but attendance is completely voluntary. So, it's pretty "liberal".

When I was little the only kindergarten in my village was one belonging to the Lutheran Church, but it wasn't focused on religion and I also had a Muslim girl in my group, for example. (That was the 80s. I think these days that area also has more daycare options available that are not church-related.)

I just googled and found one Islamic elementary school in Berlin, so there's that. But again, I don't think they can just teach what they want, they will have to stick to certain standards and regulations.

immersang · 2020-07-23T10:12:10+00:00

If saidit had the concept of giving gold (like reddit), I'd throw mine at your comment. Very well put.

immersang · 2020-07-22T17:57:45+00:00

I'm a crier. I can't help it. My mother would spank me if cried about something she deemed "unimportant" and it didn't make me less of a crier as I got older. It just ramps up my anxiety when I feel tears coming on now and I cry harder because I get more upset by the fact that I am crying.

Same. My mom wouldn't spank me but she also couldn't deal with it and would snap at me to "stop wailing". It didn't change anything. If I would have been able to basically switch a button to stop the waterworks from starting, I would have done so in a heartbeat.

immersang · 2020-07-22T17:42:26+00:00

Thank you for putting this so very well.

immersang · 2020-07-22T17:09:34+00:00

Nuns and Amish farmers dress is what I had in mind

Neither nuns nor Amish farmers goes to school, at least not here.

And even if we look at Catholic schools where nuns might teach: They are not covering their face, they are covering their hair. Islamic head coverings aren't prohibited either. So, what's your point?

anti-racism is very central to radical feminism and has been from day one

Yeah just, this has nothing to do with "anti racism". It's cultural relativism. Nice try though.

immersang · 2020-07-22T17:05:40+00:00

It is, see my comment.

immersang · 2020-07-22T15:53:30+00:00

Catholics have never been subject to dress bans, nor have various Protestant sects like the Amish, Shakers, and Quakers

There are no Amish/Shakers/Quakers communities in Germany of a relevant size (or at all), so that's irrelevant for this decision. Don't mix this up with the situation in the US. Also, Catholics don't send their daughters to school covered from head to toe, so not sure why you would bring this up at all.

The ban is on burqas and niqabs, not on the "regular" hijab. The issue is with the face coverings. I find it worrying to say the least that someone would play the "Islamophobia" card in a radical feminist forum when it comes to a decision like this.

immersang · 2020-07-22T15:47:26+00:00

They might try, but then they break the law because school is compulsory in Germany (in case of the state of Baden-Württemberg it's 4 years of elementary school and at least 5 years of secondary school). We don't have homeschooling here (there might be exceptions, but only in very specific cases, and this is not one of them). So, no, technically they cannot just keep them out of school.

immersang · 2020-07-22T10:56:24+00:00

So the kid didn't know that the therapy and stuff would lead to a transition ?

To me it reads more that she wasn't informed that it's not reversible. Now she wants to "go back" to being a girl/woman and obviously it's not that easy. Gender clinics like to claim that the effects of hormones / puberty blockers are totally reversible when there is absolutely no long-term research in place confirming that.

immersang · 2020-07-22T09:50:43+00:00

It's basically "voting with your feet" though, in this case "saying your opinion through money" (which is the only way that counts for companies including publishers at the end of the day). Rowling doesn't need any more money, but if sales of her books keep strong her publishers won't drop her and it might send a message to other companies who so far bend to every TRA whim. It shows them where the mainstream really stands, and what they want is that mainstream money.

immersang · 2020-07-22T06:21:53+00:00

That is such a weird phenomenon. I mean, I kind of let it consume my soul a bit when I was in college (that was when the first movie was released and when I started reading it as well). But...I grew out of that. Who are the people who just completely stick with it and model their identity around it? Do you have to start reading it as a child for that? Or is it simply based on being mentally unstable?

immersang · 2020-07-20T19:57:51+00:00

"femme-presenting"

Yeah, no, my dude. Even that small, partly-censored user pic in the screenshot screams "male". No way anyone had to check any "gender markers" on your passport to clock you.

immersang · 2020-07-20T18:45:34+00:00

Exactly. Of course it's not reality, in fact I read it as a bit of an escape from reality. (Which is why I never cared for any fics with an unhappy ending; drama, okay, but please give me that happy end).

immersang · 2020-07-20T11:46:05+00:00

Can't think of anyone I "admire" (except maybe people like Miranda Yardley in the sense that he puts his neck out pissing off what should be his own community and not backing down even though he was even dragged to court for "transphobia" once).

But I worked with a TIM some years ago who seemed like an "old school transsexual" and was so far the only one I met in real life who actually passed outside of photos. Probably someone who started the process fairly young and possibly was already androgynous as a boy. Didn't force their beliefs on anyone, just wanted to live their life, nice and fairly quiet person.

immersang · 2020-07-20T08:28:06+00:00

If he was a decent teacher, who cares.

It's not that easy though, is it. This is not just a male teacher who would like to come to work wearing a dress and make up. It's a male teacher who will expect his students to call him "she" and by his new "female name". I'd have an issue with that if I was OP as well and would leave his class.

You have to look at this like a belief system, not a sexuality or anything else actually rooted in biology.

It's like a teacher who subscribes to a certain religion that I don't subscribe to but expects me to "validate" his religious beliefs while in class. I would not accept that either. And in that case, I doubt the school would.

immersang · 2020-07-20T07:58:11+00:00

I know a lot of people here feel bad for her and it might be quite cold hearted not to, but I can't bring myself to have any sympathy. This is exactly the kind of story that needs to happen and especially needs to be told loudly on the internet. It's the only way to get people out of their delusional bubble at some point.

I've also read from people here (not necessarily this sub, might have been LGBdroptheT) who feel bad because they used to write slash fanfiction and now think that they are responsible for TIF delusions. And I think that's basically like feeling bad for selling wine because there are alcoholics in the world or chocolate because there are overweight people. I've read a lot of fanfiction when I was in college and I knew others who did and none of us ended up thinking we could be gay men in real life. It becomes obvious again and again that "trans" is at the end of the day mostly a symptom of other mental disorders. People who don't suffer from anything else will not suddenly become trans.

This woman needs therapy and a healthy dose of reality, not hormones, and certainly not people "validating" her.

immersang · 2020-07-20T07:29:22+00:00

my heart hurts knowing that they're not allowed to have the relief of crying when they're in pain

Who forbids them to do so? And "my other male friends will make fun of me" is no good reason. That's self-inflicted pain at the end of the day. (And I also have a brother who I love and even a male best friend.)

immersang · 2020-07-18T17:30:13+00:00

The best summary I read of this on Twitter earlier today:

The Guardian is like an ex who drove you away with constant insults, laughed when you left, and is now drunk on your lawn screaming YOU RUINED MY LIFE SUSAN

immersang · 2020-07-18T17:06:28+00:00

Children, the elderly and people with heart problems do not need to see that.

NO ONE needs to see that.

It's basically involving other people in your sex life without their consent.

immersang · 2020-07-17T20:11:28+00:00

I mean you can flower up the language all you want but it's women accusing men of "not being able to attract/get women". That's a pretty weird thing for slur a man on.

Nah, it's really not. I obviously cannot speak for ALL women, but most who use it know very well what it actually means. Not men who cannot get laid or "don't have enough sex" (most women quite frankly do not give a crap about how much sex men have they are not dating). But the horrible type of man who advocates for "government-issued females", glorifies rape and thinks that all women are horrible and shallow and don't fuck them because their elbow-to-arm-ratio is off (or something equally weirdly specific).

immersang · 2020-07-17T10:31:59+00:00

“Incel” doesn’t just refer to men who “don’t fuck enough puss” though but to a specific subgroup of men who cannot get laid because of their horrible personality, blame this on everyone but themselves and think women owe them sex. They also support rape.

That’s a big difference.

immersang · 2020-07-16T10:09:37+00:00

I did wonder how black women feel about this apparent mainstream view that black men and boys are the only ones specifically targeted and therefore in danger in the US. There was even an episode I happened to stumble across a few weeks back of one of those TV crime dramas where a black woman says she'd rather have a daughter, because black boys are in so much danger. And I was wondering: Really now? Aren't black women and girls the minority that possibly even suffers the most in US society?

But then, I'm neither from the US nor black, so I can't really have an informed opinion. Would be interesting to hear from black women here.

immersang · 2020-07-14T08:23:03+00:00

What's "awkward and annoying" is sticking "x" in place of a vowel.

Related to that: I recently read a story for the first time that included an enby. (I didn't know before I started reading, and when the enby showed up, it was as a minor character, so I kept reading anyway.) And I can't put into words how fucking awkward it is actually reading about a single person as "they". It screws up the flow of the text, because it simply "sounds" wrong, and in some cases it leads to misunderstandings when the enby interacts with another person and it's not clear in a sentence whether "they" refers to both of them or just the enby.

I know that people love to bring the "language evolves" argument, but usually language only evolves into directions that make sense and that feel / read / sound natural. There's just no way people won't drop this crap again, at least in literature, when they realize what a disservice they do to their own material.

immersang · 2020-07-10T15:38:06+00:00

But, that's—exactly how democracy works?

It's true you might not get what you think you're voting for, but all politicians lie or often turn out to be worse in practice than in theory.

You just deleted a crucial part of the quote (the "for Trump" part) and then pretended like the poster doesn't want people to vote in general. What the hell?

immersang · 2020-07-10T11:37:35+00:00

She said she was going to have a trans kid 'interview' and have final say on her secretary of education pick.

Yeah, that's when I knew the she had completely lost the plot. What a shame. I liked her before.

immersang · 2020-07-06T08:34:59+00:00

If they want to stay under the radar that's whatever, but I now effectively turn into Grumpy Cat at the thought of Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson and their validating bullshit.

Same. I have to say I'm mostly disappointed by Rupert Grint in all of this. I had thought better of him. Daniel and Emma have been flaunting their wokeness for years already. They still make me mad (especially Daniel's condescending mainsplaining bullshit), but on the other hand also don't surprise me.

immersang · 2020-07-06T08:30:49+00:00

Oh and I see now they are telling him in the replies that they've supposedly been getting death threats and he's (partly) responsible for that for openly having an opinion. All in lockstep with their trans overlords and their emotional blackmailing tactics.

immersang