How much do we owe to strangers?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

No I haven’t heard of tra being cancelled despite alok venon saying little girls are kinky and like sex, despite thousands of tweets about raping, maiming, murdering, and enslaving women and girls, despite knowing about pedophiles in their ranks, despite trying to destroy women-run businesses, despite having crisis shelters for women closed down, despite public discussions about helping little girls insert tampons, despite the protection of dangerous individuals like amy challenor moderating subreddits for children, despite admittances of violence, hatred, homicidal ideation, sexual objectification, and desire to harm women.

Are these actions morally acceptable to you because the men who did them weren’t cancelled?

Do you truly want to say that a woman saying “woman is adult human female” is the worst act listed here?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (52 children)

No I haven’t heard of tra being cancelled despite alok venon saying little girls are kinky and like sex, despite thousands of tweets about raping, maiming, murdering, and enslaving women and girls, despite knowing about pedophiles in their ranks, despite trying to destroy women-run businesses, despite having crisis shelters for women closed down, despite public discussions about helping little girls insert tampons, despite the protection of dangerous individuals like amy challenor moderating subreddits for children, despite admittances of violence, hatred, homicidal ideation, sexual objectification, and desire to harm women.

Are these actions morally acceptable to you because the men who did them weren’t cancelled?

Not everyone who does this is a man.

Do you truly want to say that a woman saying “woman is adult human female” is the worst act listed here?

GCs have done worse than that. Here are examples:

  1. GCs have harassed a trans woman on a sewing sub. There is a thread on Ovarit titled Just got permanently banned from r/sewing. Apparently a trans woman posted an outfit on r/sewing and according to OP she admitted that she didn’t sew it and didn’t know how to sew. So I searched for the reddit thread on https://camas.github.io/reddit-search/ and found the thread which was deleted. You can view the deleted comments here. https://www.reveddit.com/v/sewing/comments/q47mqk/deleted_by_user/

I will even share part of the comment chain.

termagant_

Badly executed and bad concept.

Terrible-Ad6206

Yikes! You didn’t need to comment! Go be a jerk somewhere else.

termagant_

Hey don’t post crap.

Terrible-Ad6206

This is the sewing subreddit. Why come in so hostile? Go away troll.

Marty-8

Why post on a sewing sub when you obviously don’t sew? You’re just a male colonialist on a women’s sub. It must make you euphoric.

Terrible-Ad6206

I’m a woman. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. All because I haven’t posted doesn’t mean I don’t sew? Why all this hostility? Is this what r/sewing is like? Maybe I don’t want to be here…

I didn't know r/sewing is a women's sub now. Anyway, the OP never said she didn't sue that corset. And why did they have to bring up her gender? Would they bring up race if she was black?

  1. There was a thread on the old GC sub criticizing J. Lo for doing a strip tease at the super bowl.

Unlike the vast majority of women who are paid to be objectified, these two women are not poor victims in any sense. They are victimizers. These women are idolized by millions, yet choose to use their platforms to teach young girls that it's cool to be objectified by men.

OK, if you find doing a strip tease objectifying than don't do it. That doesn't make J. Lo a victimizer in any sense.

  1. When Elliot Page came out, Ovarit had an entire thread calling him slurs. One comment said "shattered by her deeply misogynistic and lesbophobic move" even though I can't recall Page saying anything misogynistic and lesbophobic, and he was once a lesbian himself. Another comment said "This is literal conversion therapy." Which IMO is insulting to actual victims of conversion therapy.

  2. They dislike Buck Angel has a career in porn. Buck is against medically transitioning minors, and even in a tweet said he doesn't like the term "cis". Despite this, Ovarit continues to refer to Buck as "she". "You're so right that her "dysphoria" makes no sense. It's insane that Buck is cool with being sexually degraded just like any other woman in porn." https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/59881/buck-angel-is-a-joke

  3. Cis men do porn. 2. If Buck personally doesn't find doing porn degrading, then it's not degrading. How can you feel degraded for someone else?

  4. GCs harass a trans woman in the bathroom. Here is a thread from the old GC sub. https://archive.ph/IPJI4#selection-2051.0-2058.0

Was shamed last night for asking why there was a man in the women’s restroom.

I heard the voice of a man through the stall door at a bar last night and was taken aback. Why was there a man in the women’s restroom??? I asked why he was in there and was yelled at by him and his friend for misgendering him. We’re being shamed in our own restrooms now for legitimate questions of why a male voice would be heard in the women’s restroom. I’m so angry.

This person wasn't bothering OP, yet OP had to harass her.

  1. I've seen comments on Ovarit about how every trans woman is a fetishist or AGP.

  2. Ovarit believes plastic surgery should be illegal. https://ovarit.com/o/WomensLiberation/28559/cosmetic-plastic-surgery-should-be-illegal

  3. Just today there was a thread titled If Laverne Cox is an inspiring black woman then so is Rachel Dolezal. Like how? Laverne Cox is a black woman. Rachel Dolezal is woman but she isn't black.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You once again gave no answer and instead made a giant whataboutism and reverted back to chanting TWAW.

Are you able to actually debate with intellectual honesty gb? What is preventing you from giving yes or no answers? What is compelling you to bring out repeated copy+paste points like the j-Lo one, when I and other users have already broken down why they are not refutations of the arguments you use them to respond to.

I can’t tell if it’s unwillingness or inability to follow what’s being said but I just can’t with you gb. It’s like you are always responding to someone or something else, never the point at hand and never real answer.

Yes or no gb, is it morally acceptable for adult human males to say that little girls are kinky and don’t need protection from sexually interested adults because the statement did not get the speaker cancelled on Twitter. It’s got nothing to do with jlo or Elliot page or the laws in your state or the slogans you think need repeating. Yes or no.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Yes or no gb, is it morally acceptable for adult human males to say that little girls are kinky and don’t need protection from sexually interested adults because the statement did not get the speaker cancelled on Twitter.

It's not acceptable for ANYONE to say that, male or female. But that is not the reason we dislike gender critical.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Where are all the transactivists dennouncing Alok Venon and campaigning for him and his supporters to be cancelled? Is not believing that "gender identity" should matter more than sex worse than Venon's views on girls? Why can Venom get away of negative consequences while women have been harrassed both online and irl, doxxed, fired and even be physically assaulted for statating that sex matters?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I am a TRA. I had no idea Alok V Menon said this. When I googled it I found a Quora thread titled Why did non-binary transfeminine activist Alok Vaid-Menon say that little girls can be kinky too?.

One user said Alok was using the original definition of the word kinky meaning weird. But transphobes spun it to make it look like all trans femmes are pedophiles. r/NonBinaryTalk users gave similar answers. https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinaryTalk/comments/qzr5bq/alok_vaidmenon_controversy/

Here are some interesting comments:

Alok was not saying that little girls actually want to have sex with adult trans people or whatever twisted view bigots have spun it as. They were saying that extreme archetypes of any person are inherently harmful to those people. The perfect little white angel girl doesn't exist because little girls are human, too: let them be human. Let them explore who they are and become the people they want to be.

I don't know, it's complicated. I don't think that Alok's remarks indicate that they are a pedophile. However, I DO think that what Alok said was insensitive, at best. I think that Alok had a serious point that they were making about questioning dominant narratives concerning pure victims and evil perpetrators. I think that they way that they expressed this point was extremely problematic.

Aimee Challenor was cancelled. She enraged millions. Popular subredditts like r/music went private. Reddit hiring her was a bad fuck up for reddit. r/MTF condemned her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/mcua76/announcement_regarding_the_recent_situation/

It's unclear if she's a pedophile herself but she supported her pedophile father and that is enough to make her an awful person.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, you first instict was to think Alok's words were unnaceptable but after reading what the official narrative was about him, you now say he was just misunderstood? Please read the full phrase and tell me whether you think there was a sexual meaning intended or not? Do you think this is a reasonable thing to say to challenge fears of girls being sexually abused in public restrooms?

https://uploads.ovarit.com/d251c4c6-12af-565e-9bc3-1700bba684a8.png

And are we sure Aimee Challenor is really gone from reddit? I mean that guy seems to be the kind that falls upwards. Before reddit he was a member of two political parties.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So TRA are supporting and protecting the man who said little girls are kinky. Providing wishy washy excuses that don’t quite cover what was originally said.

And this is good according to you?

He was maybe not talking about sexual assault even though the entire quote mentions a fear that someone like him will abuse a little girl? Doubtful.

Gb, can you visually detect that Amy challenor and his dad are pedophiles? Is there any way to tell, at a glance, whether or not they will harm you or a child if they feel the opportunity arises?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Alok V Menon isn't a man. The reason they weren't cancelled is because Alok likely meant the word "kinky" in the sense of " relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes". I do agree the comment is in poor taste. Biden called baseball player Satchel Paige a "great negro" and yes it was racist and I do wish there was outrage but it's not worth cancelling.

Aimee Challenor is a she and she was cancelled for supporting her pedophile dad. It's unclear if she molested children herself but she supports people who do.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You cannot police my speech and force me to participate in the erasure of sex gb. Give it a fuckin rest, for once in your life lol.

Do you really think that “adult human females are women” is a worse thing to say than “little girls are kinky and you shouldn’t think they are pure, as in non-sexual” ?

Really? Where else is the word kinky used to describe being non comformative? Eclectic taste is not kink.

If Aimee was cancelled why were hundreds of Reddit accounts banned for calling him out? Why was he able to moderate the teenagers subreddit under a different account? Why did admins and mods move to protect Amy until they were forced to admit his role in his fathers crimes?

Why was someone who interacts with and defends a known pedophile ever allowed to moderate an online space for teenagers in the first place?

Gb, is being cancelled by the internet how we as a society decide what is and isn’t morally acceptable? Is it really how you decide whether someone is good or not?

It seems as though you are trying to claim that if someone is not cancelled, they have not done anything wrong, and that people who are cancelled are irredeemable and wrong. It’s extremely unwise to base your opinions and core values on popular media trends.

I see you have yet again decided to not answer a question asked and instead brought up Biden for some reason. Can you please answer me instead of introducing distractions that bear no relevance.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So being cancelled isn’t as meaningful as you previously tried to imply, is it?

Dislike by a group that is misinformed or ignorant of the issue doesn’t really matter when we are talking about rapists and pedophiles, I think even you can see that.

Even you can see the difference between them not liking us and them saying “little girls are kinky af and you should let adult human males interact sexually with them”

Now if being cancelled is not actually the guide to what’s morally correct, why bring it up?
Do you think what’s popular or trendy is the morally right choice?

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

The fact that you believe that any of these examples come anywhere near to being in the same galaxy of bad or harmful as advocating for sexual assault against children is... telling.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

So you think it's OK to question a random strangers presence in a PUBLIC SPACE when they are not harassing or bothering you? I'm not OK with advocating for sexual assault against children but two wrongs don't make a right.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

But you're talking about bathrooms so you're clearly defining "public space" as "not personal property" (as opposed to "not private property"). So that means you think it's harassment to question the presence of a random strange who has wandered into:

  • a kitchen of a restaurant

  • any employee only zone

  • the operating theater of a hospital

  • a service of a closed religion that they do not practice

etc, etc...

Or do you actually, after all, understand that some spaces are reserved for specific populations but just don't believe that female bodied people deserve their own spaces?

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If you really believe this, try wandering up into the cockpit to chat with the pilot next time you fly.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

Or do you actually, after all, understand that some spaces are reserved for specific populations but just don't believe that female bodied people deserve their own spaces?

That's pretty much correct. I believe all public restrooms and changing rooms should be unisex. I also believe changing rooms should have stalls and stalls shouldn't have gaps to give people more privacy. Unless someone is peeking in your stall somehow, you have total privacy.

I feel the same about male spaces. Gavin Grimm and Nick H shouldn't have to sue their schools to be able to use the boys bathroom. As boys, they should already have that right.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Ok, let's try another aproach. Given that you do not think women (you know the kind who can get pregnant) any space that is exclusive for us, do you feel the same about males who identify as trans (aka "transwomen")? Are such males allowed to have spaces exclusives for them, i.e are they allowed to assamble without the presence of women? If you answer is yes, then what is the difference?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

Much of it depends on the space. If trans women wanted bathrooms and locker rooms exclusive to trans women, I would be opposed to it. If trans women wanted a support group for trans women, I wouldn't be opposed to it if the group was about discussing issues specific to trans women. If they are discussing general trans issues, the group should be open to trans men and enbies. Granted, people can gather with and associate with who they want but I don't think public bathrooms and changing rooms should exclude anyone based on sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Do you just have some problem with people liking privacy from strangers more than you do? What is so offensive about women not wanting to be topless of taking a shit within two feet of a man? Are they supposed to magically instantly unlearn a lifetime of modesty norms? All to suit a fraction of the population?

Can you explain why privacy and modesty other people may want or need is so problematic to you?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Do you just have some problem with people liking privacy from strangers more than you do?

I have a different view of privacy than you do. It's is actually more private for a woman to change alone in an enclosed stall with who knows who is in the next stall than it is to undress in the visibility of a bunch of other women. If I was anti-privacy, I wouldn't be pushing for stalls.

Are they supposed to magically instantly unlearn a lifetime of modesty norms? All to suit a fraction of the population?

There are lots of societal norms people need to unlearn. Also, modesty is not a right. If I was on a plane and a Hasidic man sitting next to me demanded I switch seats because it's against his religion to sit next to a woman, my ass is staying parked in the seat unless I get moved to 1st class for free. No one else on the plane would be obligated to switch seats for him.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If support groups for "transwomen" that adress their specifics issues are okay, why plain old women cannot have the same? What is wrong with women (using biological based terms here, remember) having support groups exclusive for them? You keep saying males who identify as "women" (aka, "transwomen") are not different from us, but clearly you don't treat the two groups the same way.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

If you mean AFAB, I don't mind support groups specific to AFAB people as long as they are addressing issues specific to AFAB people and not necessarily specific to women. I oppose AFAB and AMAB specific public restrooms and changing rooms.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes because spaces exclusively for females are not public spaces. Yes because the other option is to silently be frightened until an offence is committed against you or in front of you. You are comparing the molestation of a child to a woman politely saying “this is the womens room, sir” and somehow not seeing any flaw with it

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

The person who they confronted was a woman though. What if that person was a detransitioning trans man and still has a male sounding voice?

In my state it's illegal to deny "the use of rest rooms, locker rooms, or other facilities consistent with a person's gender identity." When I was in college signs were posted in each bathrooms about the law and anyone who harasses a person in the restroom will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. These signs were posted in vocational school, and are posted in public parks and libraries. Not only do I consider it harassment, the state does too and will prosecute you for this.

https://dhr.ny.gov/genda

If you want a space exclusively for females, you are welcome to create one in your own home.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Your state laws are not universal. Your state is your state. My nation is not yet so foolish. Asking a question is not harassment just because you say so.

So women can stay home if they want sex segregation? That’s your answer? Women can just stay home if they don’t want to risk being harmed. Yet again you are busting out rhetoric that is dangerously close to victim blaming.

Should women also not wear short skirts to avoid sexual assault? Don’t carry a big purse if we don’t want them snatched? Should we stay home all day so nobody breaks our door locks? Should immunocompromised people stay home if they don’t want someone to sneeze directly on them?

Or is there a actually a social norm amongst most of society where people put in place safeguards to ensure maximum safety?

Do you object to guard rails? Signs pointing out hazards? Helmets? Or are you only upset when women have safeguards?

You are literally advocating for the urinary leash intended to keep women out of public life that was addressed by early feminists. And claiming to be feminist whilst doing it. What a nauseating act of mens rights activism.

Interesting how you continue refusing to answer anything that cannot be turned into your usual misogynistic tra drivel. Why do you insist on using the poorest and least convincing methods to try and convince us tra is anything but misogyny? If you’re ao invested in it, it would be more useful to you to actually address points we make instead of responding to everything with a tangent that’s focused on the endless repetition of your feelings, your states pandering laws, and the same five tired old ovarit links.

Shape up gb.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Women can just stay home if they don’t want to risk being harmed.

When you go outside in public, there is a risk of being harmed. This is true for everyone, men, women and enbies.

Yet again you are busting out rhetoric that is dangerously close to victim blaming.

That is not close to victim blaming.

Do you object to guard rails? Signs pointing out hazards? Helmets? Or are you only upset when women have safeguards?

I don't object to safeguards as long as they are applied to adults EQUALLY. Imagine if only women were told to wear helmets when riding a bike but not men. I would object to that. If a sign claimed something is hazardous to people of a certain race, I would object to that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gb this is the stupidest thing I’ve read in weeks.

By this logic prostate prostate or cervix exams are bad because they are not for both sexes. We shouldn’t be extra vigilant for sickle cell anemia in people with African heritage despite the higher likelihood of having it..

Get a clue omg.

You don’t answer questions, you don’t make arguments that amount to anything more than saying “no they don’t!” When told a group does something (even with proof of it) or you glom on just to try and make people use the pronouns you think are right.

Is it deliberate or are you genuinely incapable of engaging beyond a surface level toddler-like repetition of “nope! No it’s not! I don’t like it! No!”

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

By this logic prostate prostate or cervix exams are bad because they are not for both sexes. We shouldn’t be extra vigilant for sickle cell anemia in people with African heritage despite the higher likelihood of having it..

These are medical issues, not safety issues.

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, 100% I think that it's appropriate. In fact, I once had a job as a bartender in a gay bar. Bartenders took turns at the door, checking coats and so forth. A big part of my job was to say, "excuse me, you realize this is a gay bar, right?" when people came in who looked like they might not be aware of that fact. In order to maintain a gay-friendly space, you have to question random strangers in a public space. Doubly so if you want to maintain a safe space for females.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm personally fine with this as long as anyone who physically presents as male (regardless of birth sex) is allowed to enter.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok but it’s not about you. What about what the people who are actually effected by it want? Are they allowed to have their wants and needs heard or are the only correct or real wants/needs of others the ones you approve of?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just today there was a thread titled If Laverne Cox is an inspiring black woman then so is Rachel Dolezal.

Nothing to add here so please ignore me. but this is actually hilarious and perfect.

Like how? Laverne Cox is a black woman

Like how indeed lol