How much do we owe to strangers?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

The fact that you believe that any of these examples come anywhere near to being in the same galaxy of bad or harmful as advocating for sexual assault against children is... telling.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

So you think it's OK to question a random strangers presence in a PUBLIC SPACE when they are not harassing or bothering you? I'm not OK with advocating for sexual assault against children but two wrongs don't make a right.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

But you're talking about bathrooms so you're clearly defining "public space" as "not personal property" (as opposed to "not private property"). So that means you think it's harassment to question the presence of a random strange who has wandered into:

  • a kitchen of a restaurant

  • any employee only zone

  • the operating theater of a hospital

  • a service of a closed religion that they do not practice

etc, etc...

Or do you actually, after all, understand that some spaces are reserved for specific populations but just don't believe that female bodied people deserve their own spaces?

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If you really believe this, try wandering up into the cockpit to chat with the pilot next time you fly.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

Or do you actually, after all, understand that some spaces are reserved for specific populations but just don't believe that female bodied people deserve their own spaces?

That's pretty much correct. I believe all public restrooms and changing rooms should be unisex. I also believe changing rooms should have stalls and stalls shouldn't have gaps to give people more privacy. Unless someone is peeking in your stall somehow, you have total privacy.

I feel the same about male spaces. Gavin Grimm and Nick H shouldn't have to sue their schools to be able to use the boys bathroom. As boys, they should already have that right.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Ok, let's try another aproach. Given that you do not think women (you know the kind who can get pregnant) any space that is exclusive for us, do you feel the same about males who identify as trans (aka "transwomen")? Are such males allowed to have spaces exclusives for them, i.e are they allowed to assamble without the presence of women? If you answer is yes, then what is the difference?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

Much of it depends on the space. If trans women wanted bathrooms and locker rooms exclusive to trans women, I would be opposed to it. If trans women wanted a support group for trans women, I wouldn't be opposed to it if the group was about discussing issues specific to trans women. If they are discussing general trans issues, the group should be open to trans men and enbies. Granted, people can gather with and associate with who they want but I don't think public bathrooms and changing rooms should exclude anyone based on sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Do you just have some problem with people liking privacy from strangers more than you do? What is so offensive about women not wanting to be topless of taking a shit within two feet of a man? Are they supposed to magically instantly unlearn a lifetime of modesty norms? All to suit a fraction of the population?

Can you explain why privacy and modesty other people may want or need is so problematic to you?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Do you just have some problem with people liking privacy from strangers more than you do?

I have a different view of privacy than you do. It's is actually more private for a woman to change alone in an enclosed stall with who knows who is in the next stall than it is to undress in the visibility of a bunch of other women. If I was anti-privacy, I wouldn't be pushing for stalls.

Are they supposed to magically instantly unlearn a lifetime of modesty norms? All to suit a fraction of the population?

There are lots of societal norms people need to unlearn. Also, modesty is not a right. If I was on a plane and a Hasidic man sitting next to me demanded I switch seats because it's against his religion to sit next to a woman, my ass is staying parked in the seat unless I get moved to 1st class for free. No one else on the plane would be obligated to switch seats for him.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Why on earth do we need to unlearn desire for privacy or modesty?

Moving away from a Hasidic man is not modesty. I’m not sure what you think modesty is now tbh

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

If I was on a plane, and a Hasidic man sitting next to me is claiming it's immodest and against his religion to sit next to a woman and insists I switch seats, am I obligated to switch seats. Would I be wrong for refusing to switch seats? Would the airline be wrong for refusing to accommodate him?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Also, modesty is not a right

Doesn't this going against your wishes for enclosed stalls?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Modesty and privacy are different things.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If support groups for "transwomen" that adress their specifics issues are okay, why plain old women cannot have the same? What is wrong with women (using biological based terms here, remember) having support groups exclusive for them? You keep saying males who identify as "women" (aka, "transwomen") are not different from us, but clearly you don't treat the two groups the same way.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

If you mean AFAB, I don't mind support groups specific to AFAB people as long as they are addressing issues specific to AFAB people and not necessarily specific to women. I oppose AFAB and AMAB specific public restrooms and changing rooms.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And what would be some examples of specific issues for "AFAB people"? Because as far as I remember the only difference between women and males who identify as "women" that you have acknowledged was sports performance.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Strength as you mentioned, pregnancy and periods, prostate and sperm etc.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes because spaces exclusively for females are not public spaces. Yes because the other option is to silently be frightened until an offence is committed against you or in front of you. You are comparing the molestation of a child to a woman politely saying “this is the womens room, sir” and somehow not seeing any flaw with it

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

The person who they confronted was a woman though. What if that person was a detransitioning trans man and still has a male sounding voice?

In my state it's illegal to deny "the use of rest rooms, locker rooms, or other facilities consistent with a person's gender identity." When I was in college signs were posted in each bathrooms about the law and anyone who harasses a person in the restroom will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. These signs were posted in vocational school, and are posted in public parks and libraries. Not only do I consider it harassment, the state does too and will prosecute you for this.

https://dhr.ny.gov/genda

If you want a space exclusively for females, you are welcome to create one in your own home.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Your state laws are not universal. Your state is your state. My nation is not yet so foolish. Asking a question is not harassment just because you say so.

So women can stay home if they want sex segregation? That’s your answer? Women can just stay home if they don’t want to risk being harmed. Yet again you are busting out rhetoric that is dangerously close to victim blaming.

Should women also not wear short skirts to avoid sexual assault? Don’t carry a big purse if we don’t want them snatched? Should we stay home all day so nobody breaks our door locks? Should immunocompromised people stay home if they don’t want someone to sneeze directly on them?

Or is there a actually a social norm amongst most of society where people put in place safeguards to ensure maximum safety?

Do you object to guard rails? Signs pointing out hazards? Helmets? Or are you only upset when women have safeguards?

You are literally advocating for the urinary leash intended to keep women out of public life that was addressed by early feminists. And claiming to be feminist whilst doing it. What a nauseating act of mens rights activism.

Interesting how you continue refusing to answer anything that cannot be turned into your usual misogynistic tra drivel. Why do you insist on using the poorest and least convincing methods to try and convince us tra is anything but misogyny? If you’re ao invested in it, it would be more useful to you to actually address points we make instead of responding to everything with a tangent that’s focused on the endless repetition of your feelings, your states pandering laws, and the same five tired old ovarit links.

Shape up gb.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Women can just stay home if they don’t want to risk being harmed.

When you go outside in public, there is a risk of being harmed. This is true for everyone, men, women and enbies.

Yet again you are busting out rhetoric that is dangerously close to victim blaming.

That is not close to victim blaming.

Do you object to guard rails? Signs pointing out hazards? Helmets? Or are you only upset when women have safeguards?

I don't object to safeguards as long as they are applied to adults EQUALLY. Imagine if only women were told to wear helmets when riding a bike but not men. I would object to that. If a sign claimed something is hazardous to people of a certain race, I would object to that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gb this is the stupidest thing I’ve read in weeks.

By this logic prostate prostate or cervix exams are bad because they are not for both sexes. We shouldn’t be extra vigilant for sickle cell anemia in people with African heritage despite the higher likelihood of having it..

Get a clue omg.

You don’t answer questions, you don’t make arguments that amount to anything more than saying “no they don’t!” When told a group does something (even with proof of it) or you glom on just to try and make people use the pronouns you think are right.

Is it deliberate or are you genuinely incapable of engaging beyond a surface level toddler-like repetition of “nope! No it’s not! I don’t like it! No!”

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

By this logic prostate prostate or cervix exams are bad because they are not for both sexes. We shouldn’t be extra vigilant for sickle cell anemia in people with African heritage despite the higher likelihood of having it..

These are medical issues, not safety issues.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How about you go back and answer all the questions you ignored now. Or at least explain how you can shamelessly post nothing but foolish non-answers. Why aren’t you embarrassed by it?

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, 100% I think that it's appropriate. In fact, I once had a job as a bartender in a gay bar. Bartenders took turns at the door, checking coats and so forth. A big part of my job was to say, "excuse me, you realize this is a gay bar, right?" when people came in who looked like they might not be aware of that fact. In order to maintain a gay-friendly space, you have to question random strangers in a public space. Doubly so if you want to maintain a safe space for females.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm personally fine with this as long as anyone who physically presents as male (regardless of birth sex) is allowed to enter.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok but it’s not about you. What about what the people who are actually effected by it want? Are they allowed to have their wants and needs heard or are the only correct or real wants/needs of others the ones you approve of?