QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

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[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Teens are given cross-sex hormones and female teens are getting bilateral mastectomies, don't you think that qualify as irreversible? The effect of GnRH agonists (aka "puberty blockers) on children with gender dysphoria is still largely unknown and what we do know is not encouraging. Detransition is an area that needs more research, but trans activists will do as much as possible to ban any research on this topic, along anything else that question the official narrative. Is detransition is so rare, why are QT is so afraid that people research it?

A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

Detransition-Related Needs and Support: A Cross-Sectional Online Survey

Psychotherapist blocked from studying ‘trans regret’ takes case to the European Court

Scottish doctors approved breast removal for 51 trans teenagers

Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults

Eligible youth were 13 to 25 years old, had been assigned female at birth, and had an identified gender as something other than female. Recruitment occurred during clinical visits and via telephone between June 2016 and December 2016. Surveys were collected from participants who had undergone chest surgery at the time of survey collection and an equal number of youth who had not undergone surgery.

2 participants in this survey had a bilacteral mastectomy at age 13, 5 had one at age 14, 9 at age 15, 9 at age 16, and 8 at age 17.

AAP 'Silencing Debate' on Gender Dysphoria, Says Doctor Group

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

All Six of Sweden's Pediatric Clinics Meet to Discuss a Cautious Stance Toward Pediatric Gender Transitions

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

Again. I’ve never seen statistics on teens. The studies you all always point to are on preadolescent children who have weaker identities than adolescents. Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest. There’s a difference between an 8 year old and a 16 year old when you are talking about identity and autonomy.

No one is objecting to an ethical demographic study on detransition. Or denying it’s a thing that happens. But it is a tiny percentage of people who transition. Anecdotally I helped organize a trans support group. I have met literally hundreds of trans people. I know of exactly 1 who detransitioned. Who it’s worth noting is still trans supportive and pro access to transition care.

Like I’m not even for transition before 16 but the evidence you are citing doesn’t actually support your assertions.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think an issue here is the imprecise wording (and sometimes indecipherable spelling) of your posts, which often make it hard to figure out exactly what you are saying and what info you're asking for. Such as this statement of yours a couple of posts up:

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

When you say you've "never seen GC cite any statistics on adolescent desistance," do you mean stats regarding persons who had childhood GD (onset well before puberty) and who desisted during adolescence? Or do you mean persons who developed GD during or just prior to adolescence, and who desisted at a later stage of adolescence?

I believe GC has provided many sources showing that the vast majority of kids with childhood GD desist during the course of adolescence.

But it might be that you and other posters here are using the word "adolescent" to mean different things. Could you say what you mean exactly so to eliminate further confusion?

Finally, is "dibd" a typo or an acronym for some new gender term? Genuine question- it's not clear to me.

You say that

Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest.

Again, please state what you mean by "mid to late teens." There are 7 different, long years between 13 and 19; it's best to be specific.

My impression is that you think adolescence = teens, or is roughly equivalent to the teenage years. When, in fact, adolescence usually starts well before the teen years. Puberty is only precocious if it starts before 8 in girls, and before 9 in boys. Most girls start developing breasts and begin menstruating well before they turn 13, often several years before. Similarly, most boys begin experiencing wet dreams and genital changes and growth, and engage in masturbation resulting in orgasm, well before they turn 13 too.

If my impression that you're conflating being an adolescent with being a teen is incorrect, I apologize ahead of time.

Another issue adding to the confusion here is that is that puberty/adolescence unfolds very differently in children depending on sex - and thus boys and girls of the exact same age are often at very different stages of adolescence. Not only do different processes occur in female and male bodies during puberty and the rest of adolescence , but these phases of development occur at a different pace in the two sexes, and where common events occur - such as the growth spurt that leads to adult height, adult shape and increased bone density - the sequence is different depending on children's sex. For example, girls go through our big skeletal growth spurt at the beginning-middle of puberty and usually achieve our adult height by 14, whereas boys do so towards the end of puberty or even during adolescence after puberty is over, achieving their adult height at or after 16. Though this varies in individuals. For example, I reached my adult height at 12, but my brother didn't reach his until 17.

But however you personally define what you mean when you speak of "the mid-late teens" and "adolescents," it remains the case that your claim that "Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest," is simply not true. Nowadays, and for a number of years now, kids with gender dysphoria are indeed being placed on "hormones" in their early teens, and some before their teens even start.

A paper published in 2019 by Johanna Olson-Kennedy MD et al reported on a study funded by USA's NIH that began in 2016 that attempted to assess the impact of early medical interventions on "transgender youth." It says:

Regarding age, the minimum age in the inclusion criteria for the gender-affirming hormone cohort was decreased from 13 years (as stated in the original grant proposal) to 8 years in order to ensure that potential participants who might be eligible for hormones based on their Tanner stage would not be excluded due to age alone. Additionally, considerations were made for youth who were found to have very low bone density in the screening, which occurs with youths initiating blockers. Only 7 youths under the age of 13 years at the time of enrollment were enrolled into the cross-sex hormone cohort.[ "only 7" - WTF?]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6647755/

Another study published in 2018 by Olson-Kennedy et al of 59 patients who presented for treatment at a youth gender clinic from 2011-13 and received "hormone therapy" states that the youths

ranged in age from 12 to 23 years at initiation of [exogenous estrogen or testosterone] therapy, with a mean age of 18 years. Thirteen (22%) youth started [cross-sex] hormones younger than age 16 years.

Transfeminine youth were started on hormone protocols that usually included a testosterone blocking agent and feminizing medications. Spironolactone (100–200 mg orally per day) or a GnRH analog was used for testosterone blocking and induction of feminizing features with 17 β estradiol, and in some cases, the addition of progesterone. At the time of this study, spironolactone and GnRH analogs were not covered by most insurance plans; therefore, seven (28%) of these youth did not have their endogenous testosterone blocked specifically in the first two years of treatment. One transfeminine young person was on GnRH analogs since early puberty. Eighteen participants used an escalating dose of oral estradiol ranging from 1 to 6 mg each day; four switched to injectable estradiol over the course of treatment, and one was off of hormones at the follow-up visit. Six participants initially started, and continued using injectable estradiol at doses ranging from 20 to 30 mg delivered intramuscularly every 14 days.

Transmasculine youth were all treated with testosterone cypionate via subcutaneous delivery at escalating doses ranging from 12.5 mg to 75 mg weekly. At follow-up, most youth were at a dose of 50–75 mg weekly. Two transmasculine youth were on simultaneous GnRH analogs that were started earlier in adolescence. Doses for both cohorts were adjusted based on clinical response and circulating levels of sex steroids.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7050572/

Jazz Jennings started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen when Jazz was 11. Since Jazz turns 21 in a few days, that was a decade ago.

Jackie Green of the UK, child of Mermaids' CEO Susie Green, started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen at 12. Jackie is now 30, so that was 18 years ago, in 2003.

Helen Webberley the UK physician who operates Gender GP, an unlicensed online clinic, has been prescribing cross-sex hormones to children as young as 12 for at least several years now. This first came out in the investigations in 2018 that followed the suicide of one of Webberley's teenage female patients for whom Webberley prescribed testosterone, and more info about other patients has come out in the formal proceedings against Webberley by medical licensing authorities that have been held over the past couple of months.

Trinity Neal, the first child in the US state of Delaware to undergo "childhood gender transition" paid for by Medicaid, started exogenous estrogen in 2016 when Trinity was 13 and at 16 became "one of the youngest people" to undergo surgery to remove Trinity's testicles and reconfigure Trinity's genitals in "gender affirming" fashion.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/transgender-teen-trinity-neal-pictured-with-her-mother-news-photo/1190172556

Speaking of surgery, an intervention that is not reversible, another study by Olson-Kennedy et al published in 2018 showed that girls in the US as young as 13 are being given double mastectomies for gender dysphoria. In the sample studied, 49% of those who had double mastectomy for GD and "chest dysphoria" were younger than 18 years at the time their breasts were removed.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I’m referring to adolescence in the social sense as in the life stage between childhood and adulthood, not simply the onset of puberty.

I think Jazz was given estrogen too early though I would have supported blockers. But still yet. The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds. It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for answering. But I still am not clear on what you mean. You think adolescence is simply a social stage? Not one when development of myriad kinds occurs - physical, sexual, social, psychological, cognitive?

Also, I wasn't talking about onset of puberty. I was talking about puberty as a multi-year developmental process and pointing out that puberty and adolescence are not the same, nor does adolescence mean the teen years. Whereas in my reading of your posts, you seem to use these terms loosely and interchangeably.

When puberty begins, adolescence begins - but adolescence continues after puberty is finished. Similarly, by the time a person becomes a teenager, puberty is usually well underway and sometimes mostly over - depending on the person's sex and individual developmental clock. My point was that in these convos about boys and girls growing up, the different stages of development and life phases - childhood, puberty, adolescence, teens, early adulthood, adulthood, etc - need to be spoken of very precisely. Whereas no offense, you seem to speak of these matters loosely and in ways that IMO are confusing and hard for others to follow.

The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds.

Can you link to these studies that GC supposedly uses, or at least give the authors' names, so I can look them up? I have no idea what studies you mean - and I'm someone who's definitely GC who's been looking into this area for many years now.

It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

So does this mean your focus really is on, and all along you have been speaking of, persons who develop(ed) GD solely in their teenage years - meaning they have adolescent-onset GD begun after puberty has started, not childhood GD? Coz that's how it comes across, and that's what I've been trying to get you to clarify.

I agree with you 100% that childhood GD is entirely different to adolescent-onset and adult-onset GD. But GC is not the group that's been trying to obscure the distinctions between those with childhood-onset GD and those with GD that develops in adolescence or adulthood. The people who are projecting are the adults, usually males, who say that because they and other adult males who are trans now wish they didn't undergo some of masculinization of appearance that occurs as a result of male puberty and adolescence, then kids with childhood GD should have their puberties blocked so they don't develop those characteristics themselves.

The QT and pro-trans adults are also the ones who have come up with the harmful myth of being "born in the wrong body," a narrative they not only project onto the stories of their own pasts and the pasts of other adults who now identify as trans, but which they foist upon - and tell to - little kids with childhood GD too.

The GC side are the ones who warn against "unsupported comparison(s)" in these convos. Such as the unsupported comparison between adolescent and adult males with AGP and teenage girls with ROGD. And the unsupported comparison between the discrimination and abuse that some males go through growing up and in adulthood because others see them as "sissies" and suspect them of being gay and the discrimination and abuse that females experience because of our sexed bodies and the misogyny and sexism we face. And the unsupported comparison between what happened in the childhoods and adolescence of adults who grew up and matured many years or even decades ago and what's gone on, or is going on, in the childhoods and adolescence of young people today or in recent years.

The child abuse and human rights violations done to youngsters like Jazz Jennings, Trinity Neal, Kai Shappley, Mack Beggs and all the young girls getting their breasts amputated in the name of "gender affirmation" nowadays haven't come about because of GC people projecting our issues onto kids, or us making unsupported comparisons. It's because adult genderists have done and are doing that.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So does this mean your focus really is on, and all along you have been speaking of, persons who develop(ed) GD solely in their teenage years - meaning they have adolescent-onset GD begun after puberty has started, not childhood GD? Coz that's how it comes across, and that's what I've been trying to get you to clarify.

It doesn’t matter. As I’ve said I’m speaking about people expressing trans identities in adolescence, regardless of onset. That’s who would be getting lasting treatment so that’s the relevant question. How many children desist is irrelevant because we aren’t talking about children, we are talking about people in their mid to late teens.

The child abuse false allegations have started so I won’t be responding further. Good evening.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It doesn’t matter. As I’ve said I’m speaking about people expressing trans identities in adolescence, regardless of onset.

But of course it matters! Not all "gender dysphoria" is of the same nature, nor does it have the same cause. GD of childhood onset is very different to GD of adolescent and adult onset. Both within each sex, and between the two sexes.

A same sex-attracted male of 16 who developed childhood GD because the adults in his life shamed and punished him for liking "the wrong toys" and for being what they considered "girly" or not sufficiently manly is entirely different to an opposite sex-attracted male of the same age who developed GD because when he was 11-12 he started borrowing the undies or intimate items belonging to his mum, sister or gran to masturbate in/with, and after finding he really got off on it developed AGP. And GD in each of them in turn is different to the GD of an awkward autistic boy of the same age who hasn't figured out his sexuality yet but in the past year has been groomed into wanting to be/thinking he's a girl by adult predators who search the internet looking for "eggs."

Saying "it doesn't matter" that what's going on with these different groups of young people is not at all the same and treating them as one undifferentiated mass is doing them great harm.

Moreover, GD in females is entirely different to GD in males. A 15 year-old female who developed adolsecent-onset GD because of sexism and internalized misogyny will have little to nothing in common with a male of the exact same age, class, locale, etc who developed adolescent-onset GD because he has an adolescent male libido and has been steeped in sissy porn.

As for people "expressing trans identities in adolescence" - that's a far, far bigger group than kids with childhood-onset and adolescent-onset combined.

Please explain how the medical interventions and cruel lies that gender ideology advocates insist minors be subjected to in pursuit of "early gender transition" doesn't amount to child abuse.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

So, you'd rather hide your head in the sand and keep repeating the same lies about how no irreversible procedures are being given to minors? Do you think all the evidence to the contrary will vanish by just saying this doesn't happen? If you are going to tell me my assertions are baseless, then justify your claims.

I can't produce research that hasn't been done. It's only recently that teenagers whose gender dysporia began at adolescense have been going to gender clinics for "transition". The change in the sex ratio where female patients are outnumbering male ones, that trans activists are keen on not looking for an explanation, is also a new fenomenon. It's also new that children and teenagers who identify as "trans" are being cheering on their cross-sex identitiies not only by the medical and psychological establishment, but also the Media and schools. There is anecdotical evidence by detransitioners that suggest they don't often don't go back to their doctors. As I said, desistence and detransition is an area that needs more research, but transactivists are trying their best to not allow it.

It's unbeliable you had the nerve that no one is objecting to study detransition when I showed you the case of a psychotherapist who is going to court about this very issue. What exactly is unethical about what he was trying to research? How is this more unethical than chemically castrating children? Why are you all so scared of people researching this topic if you all are so secure on your own chosen "identities" as you all claim? And what about the AAP not wanting to allow the debate on the treatment of trans identified minors? Again, what are you all so afraid of?

And what about this paper I linked, very much pro-"transition" for minors and using ofuscating "inclusive language", which outright admitted that females who identify as "trans" have gotten their breast removed as young as 13 years old? What have you to say about it? Are you going to try to dismiss it as "transphobic" propaganda? And what about the girls in Scotland that were aprroved for the same surgery? Are you going to ignore it too?

What have you to say about Finland and Sweden reversing course when in comes to "transition" of minors? What have you to say about even one of the authors of the Dutch protocol admitting that this is being applied for a population that it was not designed for? What have you to say that in spite of GnRH agonists being sold as a "pause button", virtually all children progress to cross-sex hormones? Tavistock's own data support this, you know? Are you going to argue the doctors have gotten very good on detecting who is a "true trans" at the same time when it's became "transphobic" to question someone's identity in any way?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

I’m not hiding my head in the sand I’m just not acknowledging your obvious sleight of hand comparing stats on 8 year olds to try to justify denying care to teens twice that age. Puberty blockers are reversible so don’t pretend that Is some grand permanent treatment.

Trans people aren’t new. People being able to access care early enough to prevent the wrong puberty ruining their bodies is a good thing.

No one is objecting to fair demographic studies. But that’s not what is being done. If someone wanted to contact detransitioners without culling from anti trans sites (like that laughable rogd “study”) to ask about why they transitioned , why they detransitioned, and what services they need, literally no trans person would care. That researcher was blocked by the university not any kind of trans action. A business engaging in conservative oversight is hardly our responsibility.

That aap article is about one organization not a general research topic. No one cares about fair research. But we do object to blatant anti trans agenda groups funding bad studies.

That study you linked shows a trend toward effective reduction in dysphoria with top surgery and self reported regret was near zero. Hardly a ringing endorsement for your side.

And that article on the Scottish group was specifically 16 and 17 year olds. They are mature enough to have bodily autonomy and know who they are as far as I’m concerned. And again you still haven’t shown me data suggesting large desistance rates from 16 and 17 year olds who are dysphoric.

The Swedish group seems to be a pause until administrative guidance. The Finnish change I don’t really have any thoughts on. Surgery before 18 doesn’t seem particularly dire. Moving away from puberty blockers is going to hurt a lot of trans kids probably but it’s not the end of the world.

What have you to say that in spite of GnRH agonists being sold as a "pause button", virtually all children progress to cross-sex hormones? Tavistock's own data support this, you know?

Seems like they are working to help prevent the wrong puberty in those that need it who then get the right one? What’s your point here? If most who get paused eventually go on hormones that’s evidence it’s being applied to people who decide to transition. That’s a mark in favor.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

I said you're hiding your head in the sand because that is exactly all what you've been doing: trying to twist my points to suit your position and ignoring the unconvenient parts that you don't know how to misrepresent. Just like you keep not adressing the evidence that 13 years old girls have gotten their breasts amputated, which is something irreversible being done to teens, exactly what you claimed it didn't happen. And speaking of harmful practices trans identified girls are encouraged to do, I forgot to mention the horros of breast binding. But of course, you don't give a dam about what happen to young trans identified females, just like you don't give a dam about women being told to use de-humanizing "inclusive" terms to talk about themselves and female anatomy, or how women are being harmed because of males claiming to be "women" are invading (formerly) women-only spaces like bathrooms, refuges, sports, hospital wards, prissons, etcetera. Just like you don't give a dam about TRA policies distorting statistics and lying about women getting more violent. Just like you don't give a dam about dissenting women receiving death and rape threats, being smeared, getting fired, or getting physically assaulted for stating the obvious fact that men are not and will never be women regardless of how many hormones they take, or how many surgeries they undergone, or how many sexist stereotypes they try to live up to.

You call yourself a "woman", yet you have zero sympathy for actual women. We're nothing more than human shields for you. Let's be real, deep down you likely know that you will never been anything but what you hate the most. Why else, do you throw a tantrum every time people refuse to play along with the obvious lies about who you are? You need to be honest with yourself and learn to be comfortable on your own skin rather than live vicariously through trans identified children and teens.

Nobody goes through the wrong puberty as nobody is born in the wrong body. Who does enjoy puberty, anyway? Do you think that being unconfortable with your changing body is an exclusive experience of trans identified people? I wasn't exactly happy when my breasts started to develope or when I got my first periods or when I was told I have to shave because I was a girl. Was I a "trans boy" or "non-binary person" or whatever else? I mean, I don't wear dresses or make-up, so I must not be a woman, right? That is the obvious conclusion if I were to follow QT logic, right?

Listen, gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues, more commonly known as "puberty blockers" are NOT reversible. Anyone who knows something about pharmacology would recognize the phrase of them being "reversible" as the red flag that it is. No drug is reversible, that is why you need to weight the benefits and the risks of using them. Why do you think in literally any other area of medicine self-medication is frowned upon? TRA's only basis to say they are "reversible" is by extrapolating from their use in the treatment of central precocious puberty. However, central precocious puberty and gender dysphoria are very different conditions and GnRH agonists are used for different reasons in them. In the former, the aim to dealy the kid's puberty until the typical onset of puberty. Meanwhile, in the latter, children whose puberty started at typical ages are getting their sex hormones shut down to made "passing" easier.

But the human body is too complex to be able to stop the clock as if were nothing. Sex hormones are important for developing bones and brains. Even if their secretion is later resumed, we can't be sure on the impact of temporaly shutting them down. Moreover, we can't know the sociopsychological impact of teens, who are likely uncorfortable with their bodies, being kept in a child-like state while all their peers are growing up normally. Why wouldn't they jump on taking exogenous hormones, especially when everyone is cheering them on being, or being able to become, the opposite sex? Keira Bell's treatment started at 16 years old and undergone a bilateral mastectomy at 20 years old. Yet she later regreted all of this. How can you say children and teens are mature enough to consent to any of this? How can they consent when they are being groomed by adult activists that tell them their only options are "transition" or suicide? How can they consent when they are not told the actual risks and doctors employ anatomical unaccurate terms like "male chest reconstruction", "neovagina", "sex assigned at birth", "front hole" or "transition"? Especially when many doctors are keen on ignoring the skyrocketing increase on cases, the change on the sex ratios in favour of teen girls, the many co-morbities that many of the patients have, or the increasing numbers of de-transitioners? Not to mention the obvious question: why are trans identified people are offered hormones and surgeries to "transition", but no one thinks on giving anorexic patients a liposuction?

And you have the nerve to complaining that I or others can't provide you with the data you ask for when it's trans activists who are doing the very best not to allow any debate or research that may contradicts their dogmas? It's trans activists who don't want people researching detransition or recent changes in the demographis of young patients with gender dysphoria. It's transactivists who seek to punish anyone raising safeguarding concerns or just get a more a cautios position. All of this under excuse that it's anti-"trans" propaganda. What a joke! Anything it's "transphobic" for you all, starting with reality itself.

You all would rather support doctors who can't keep basic patient's data or disregard any safeguarding. You all would rather support people who try to ban alternative treatments for gender dysphoria through bad science. You all would rather keep denying the importance of sex even if get's your life in danger. You all would rather support an English proffessor who advocate for stealing and burning a book he doesn't like. You all would rather support the lawyers who advice you to keep your goals secret. You all would rather support the lawyers who don't want people to know how many trans identified males there are in the female state.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Someone who doesn’t want breasts getting them removed is not a harm. They’re happier and not debilitated. You just don’t care value bodily autonomy.

Just like you keep not adressing the evidence that 13 years old girls have gotten their breasts amputated, which is something irreversible being done to teens, exactly what you claimed it didn't happen. And speaking of harmful practices trans identified girls are encouraged to do, I forgot to mention the horros of breast binding. But of course, you don't give a dam about what happen to young trans identified females, just like you don't give a dam about women being told to use de-humanizing "inclusive" terms to talk about themselves and female anatomy, or how women are being harmed because of males claiming to be "women" are invading (formerly) women-only spaces like bathrooms, refuges, sports, hospital wards, prissons, etcetera. Just like you don't give a dam about TRA policies distorting statistics and lying about women getting more violent. Just like you don't give a dam about dissenting women receiving death and rape threats, being smeared, getting fired, or getting physically assaulted for stating the obvious fact that men are not and will never be women regardless of how many hormones they take, or how many surgeries they undergone, or how many sexist stereotypes they try to live up to.

When it became clear this was just an ad homonym skred I just stopped reading and skipped to the next paragraph.

You call yourself a "woman", yet you have zero sympathy for actual women. We're nothing more than human shields for you. Let's be real, deep down you likely know that you will never been anything but what you hate the most. Why else, do you throw a tantrum every time people refuse to play along with the obvious lies about who you are? You need to be honest with yourself and learn to be comfortable on your own skin rather than live vicariously through trans identified children and teens.

And again.

Nobody goes through the wrong puberty as nobody is born in the wrong body. Who does enjoy puberty, anyway? Do you think that being unconfortable with your changing body is an exclusive experience of trans identified people? I wasn't exactly happy when my breasts started to develope or when I got my first periods or when I was told I have to shave because I was a girl. Was I a "trans boy" or "non-binary person" or whatever else? I mean, I don't wear dresses or make-up, so I must not be a woman, right? That is the obvious conclusion if I were to follow QT logic, right?

I went through the wrong puberty. One made me a monster and miserable the other would have been fine. So some People do go through the wrong puberty. Just because you didn’t want the other one doesn’t mean no one did. Objectively my life would have been better without male puberty. How can you deny that?

Listen, gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues, more commonly known as "puberty blockers" are NOT reversible

Doctors say different. I’ll trust them over you.

Yet she later regreted all of this. How can you say children and teens are mature enough to consent to any of this?

I said teens not children. Stop misquoting me. And a tiny regret rate doesn’t negate possible consent. Some 5 percent of adults regret breast augmentation. Should that be illegal?

It is sometimes transition or suicide. I personally hit that point. I made a pro con list.

why are trans identified people are offered hormones and surgeries to "transition", but no one thinks on giving anorexic patients a liposuction?

Please stop comparing gender dysphoria and anorexia. They aren’t the same. I currently have diagnosis for both. (After a reevaluation my Ednos diagnosis was recatagorized, not a great congratulations on the weight loss present). They are not the same thing and it’s extremely disrespectful to try to force a comparison.

And you have the nerve to complaining that I or others can't provide you with the data you ask for when it's trans activists who are doing the very best not to allow any debate or research that may contradicts their dogmas? It's trans activists who don't want people researching detransition or recent changes in the demographis of young patients with gender dysphoria. It's transactivists who seek to punish anyone raising safeguarding concerns or just get a more a cautios position. All of this under excuse that it's anti-"trans" propaganda. What a joke! Anything it's "transphobic" for you all, starting with reality itself.

Nobody cares if unbiased and fair research gets done on detransition. But y’all aren’t doing that. That ROGD study is the perfect example.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I went through the wrong puberty. One made me a monster and miserable the other would have been fine. So some People do go through the wrong puberty. Just because you didn’t want the other one doesn’t mean no one did. Objectively my life would have been better without male puberty. How can you deny that?

How does puberty make someone a monster, as opposed to just making them a fully developed adult?

How can you go through the wrong puberty? You go through the puberty your body is meant to go through. How is it wrong, rather than just not what you’d prefer?

Objectively your life would be better if you learned to manage the mental health issues you have more effectively as well, how can you deny that?

« And a tiny regret rate doesn’t negate possible consent. »

No, but being under the age of consent does negate possible consent, or are we just letting underage people do whatever the fuck they want if they say they gave consent? So no more statutory rape, no more drinking or smoking or driving age limits?

« Some 5 percent of adults regret breast augmentation. Should that be illegal? »

Why would an adult human consenting to elective surgery and then regretting it be illegal?

« It is sometimes transition or suicide. I personally hit that point. I made a pro con list. »

Anyone threatening suicide should be hospitalized until they aren’t a threat to themselves. Aside from trans people, what is an instance where giving into a suicide threat (when they are demanding something in exchange for not killing themselves) justified?

« Please stop comparing gender dysphoria and anorexia. They aren’t the same. I currently have diagnosis for both. (After a reevaluation my Ednos diagnosis was recatagorized, not a great congratulations on the weight loss present). They are not the same thing and it’s extremely disrespectful to try to force a comparison »

The comparison is the idea of treating a mental illness by allowing the patient to further fuel their mental illness and alter their body to match something that is a false sense of self perception.

Also- the fact that you want to separate things that aren’t the same when it suits you but want to force things that aren’t the same together when it suits you is kind of hilarious.

Edit- how not hoe lmao

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Hoe does puberty make someone a monster, as opposed to just making them a fully developed adult?

By twisting their body into a disgusting twisted monstrosity. All excess muscle and hard edges.

How can you go through the wrong puberty? You go through the puberty your body is meant to go through. How is it wrong, rather than just not what you’d prefer?

It’s wrong because it’s the painful one. Instead of the one that would actually fit. So… wrong.

Objectively your life would be better if you learned to manage the mental health issues you have more effectively as well, how can you deny that?

I did. That’s what transition was for. Big improvement in mental health.

Driving and statutory rape involve other people. I honestly don’t care about drinking or smoking ages. We are talking about autonomy in medical decisions.

Why would an adult human consenting to elective surgery and then regretting it be illegal?

You know very well what I meant. Does the fact that some small percent of people regret breast augmentation mean breast augmentation should be illegal?

The comparison is the idea of treating a mental illness by allowing the patient to further fuel their mental illness and alter their body to match something that is a false sense of self perception.

They are different issues with different treatment. You are basically saying that since ssri’s help depression that they should be used to treat everything and we should ban all other treatments. It’s just not logical.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

  1. Cite proof that puberty turns adolescent humans into monsters?

Cite proof that bodies tend to "twist" during puberty? Or… ever?

-2. Cite proof that one puberty is painful but not the other… particularly when the other that you’re referring to often includes monthly cycles of cramps and even running fevers and vomiting…

This doesn’t really explain how puberty can be "wrong", just that it may be painful

3a.

So when people acknowledge that you are a male or call you a man/he/him, you are perfectly fine and it doesn’t bother you?

And you genuinely are under the impression that humans can turn into monsters based on puberty, this is not your mental issues making you think that? It’s an actual thing you’ve seen happen, and not a gross statement colored by your self hatred and hatred for other males even after your transition?

3b. Transition involves the whole of society. We all have to deal with you and your needs, demands, complaining, and constant need for validation.

But the question isn’t if it involves others or whether or not Masks personally approves or not, it’s whether or not we should allow adolescents to just give consent for any of those things.

-4. I do know what you meant. The difference is that adults can give consent to those procedures and they most often aren’t procedures being performed to pretend to be the opposite sex/gender so I’m not sure how you think this is relevant.

No. Regretting a boob job is not something that should render getting them illegal. It’s also not at all comparable to a child’s ability or inability to give any type of consent for anything.

-5. If i were saying that ssri’s should be given for everything that’s what I would have said.

I didn’t say that. Because it’s irrelevant.

The fact is, we are discussing illnesses were an individual has a warped sense of self directly pertaining to the physical state of their body. One (anorexia) is treated by actually attempting to fix the warped sense of self (actually attempting to treat the condition, not just a symptom while simultaneously feeding the mental Health issues) the other (dysphoria) is dealt with by letting the patient play pretend as thoroughly as possible and encouraging the rest of the world to play pretend for them. Why is it that one specific mental illness is treated this way?

What’s not logical is thinking that letting a man intentionally give himself a hormonal imbalance and possibly have invasive surgeries is doing anything to treat their mental illness. I don’t negate it may alleviate the bodily discomfort- dysphoria is clearly about more than just that and trans people clearly still have a very long list of other issues that transition actually seems to make worse so again-

The comparison is treating a mental illness by adjusting the physical as much as possible to resemble the warped sense of self the patient has.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

  1. I’m not showing you a picture. But I’m fuck ugly because of male puberty.

  2. Again I had to live with becoming a monster and living in that disgusting body. I wouldn’t have had to if people would have let me have bodily autonomy. I’m speaking from personal experience.

3a. It makes me sad but it’s not as crushing as it used to be. Because transition works to ameliorate dysphoria.

3b. And not transitioning involves inability to function due to dysphoria, suicide attempt burdens, just as much complaining and trouble if not more. Plus it prevents a person from suffering.

  1. And I think teens should have medical bodily autonomy. Apparently you disagree.

  2. You are saying that some treatment works for one mental condition it should be used for another distinct and unrelated one based on no evidence.

Anorexia and dysphoria are treated differently because they are different conditions that have different manifestations and respond to things differently. You can’t conflate them.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Someone who doesn’t want breasts getting them removed is not a harm. They’re happier and not debilitated. You just don’t care value bodily autonomy.

I "love" how you are still not admitting that irreversible stuff is being done to teenagers. And, of course, not mention of breast binding on your part. Is that practice "harmles", too?

When it became clear this was just an ad homonym skred I just stopped reading and skipped to the next paragraph.

And again.

How am I wrong about anything I said? You have proven time and time again that you don't have any empathy for women and you only view us as human shields and as a way to get whatever you want. You have shown zero sympathy about all the harm that TRA's policies causes to women, yet you cry over how the "mean" women aren't working on giving you third spaces. You dismiss women's issues, and yet you wan't we feel sorry for you. Maybe you should start complaining to trans activists. If they can get male sex offenders jailed alongside women, medical journals using stupid and de-humanizing terms like "bodies with vagina", or a 43-year-old man competing at a women's event at the Olympics, they surely have the power to give you whatever you want.

I went through the wrong puberty. One made me a monster and miserable the other would have been fine. So some People do go through the wrong puberty. Just because you didn’t want the other one doesn’t mean no one did.

Just because you weren't comfortable with your body it doesn't mean you went through the wrong puberty. You're talking about your own subjective feelings, not objective facts.

Objectively my life would have been better without male puberty. How can you deny that?

This is nonsense. You cannot know that because you are not female. Therefore, you have absolutely no idea what is like to go through female puberty. This all wishfull thinking on your part. Do you think if you were given GnRH analogues and exogenous hormones while you were growing up you would have gone through "female puberty" and you will now now a happy "passing transwoman"? You would not. You would only have more health problems by now because of starting with a induced hormonal imbalance at a earlier age. That is why you need to stop proyecting your own fantasies on children and teens.

Doctors say different. I’ll trust them over you.

The Pediatric Endocrine Society’s Statement on Puberty Blockers Isn’t Just Deceptive. It’s Dangerous - by endocrinologist Michael K. Laidlaw

Gender Dysphoria and Children: An Endocrinologist’s Evaluation of ‘I am Jazz’

Challenges in Timing Puberty Suppression for Gender-Nonconforming Adolescents - written by one of the authors of the Dutch protocol

Children's transgender clinic hit by 35 resignations in three years as psychologists warn of gender dysphoria 'over-diagnoses'

Why I Resigned from Tavistock: Trans-Identified Children Need Therapy, Not Just ‘Affirmation’ and Drugs

Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

Children's gender identity clinic concerns go back 15 years - about Tavistock doctors' concerns over "puberty blockers"

Irish College of GPs reverses stance on puberty blockers

Time to Hit Pause on 'Pausing' Puberty in Gender-Dysphoric Youth - by endocrinologist William Malone

One Year Since Finland Broke with WPATH "Standards of Care"

Sweden's Karolinska Ends the Use of Puberty Blockers for <16: New policy statement from the Karolinska Hospital

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

Irresponsible Gender-Transition Treatments on Children - letters from two doctors

Is that enough for you or do you only listen to doctors that tell you what you want to hear?

I said teens not children. Stop misquoting me. And a tiny regret rate doesn’t negate possible consent. Some 5 percent of adults regret breast augmentation. Should that be illegal?

Adults and teens are not comparable. No, I don't think teens are mature enough to concept to "transition", especially not when they are being sold a lie by unscrupulous doctors.

And I want to note you're moving the goal posts. This discussiong began by you claiming that not irreversible stuff was being done to trans identified teens, and now you are talking about consent.

Please stop comparing gender dysphoria and anorexia. They aren’t the same. I currently have diagnosis for both. (After a reevaluation my Ednos diagnosis was recatagorized, not a great congratulations on the weight loss present). They are not the same thing and it’s extremely disrespectful to try to force a comparison.

I'm not going to stop anything. Saying they are not comparable tell us absolutely nothing. Explain why gender dysphoria and anorexia nervosa are so different from each other when both involve individuals with a distorted perception of themselves and prone to self-harm? You really don't know how to explain it, aren't you? That is why you, and other trans identified people, try so hard to shut up the comparison with claims of being "disrespectful". How convenient for you all that any question that threathens your beliefs are "offensive" or "transphobic".

Nobody cares if unbiased and fair research gets done on detransition. But y’all aren’t doing that. That ROGD study is the perfect example.

Again with the same nonsense. Do you seriously think you are going to convince anyone by calling anything you don't like anti-trans propaganda? Why don't you explain how they were biased for a change? Why don't you tell us exactly what a unbiased research looks like to you for a change?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

How am I wrong about anything I said? You have proven time and time again that you don't have any empathy for women and you only view us as human shields and as a way to get whatever you want. You have shown zero sympathy about all the harm that TRA's policies causes to women, yet you cry over how the "mean" women aren't working on giving you third spaces. You dismiss women's issues, and yet you wan't we feel sorry for you.

I’m ignoring your ad hominem attacks. You can stop.

Maybe you should to start complaining to trans activists. If they can get male sex offenders jailed alongside women, medical journals using stupid and de-humanizing terms like "bodies with vagina", or a 43-year-old man competing at a women's event at the Olympics, they surely have the power to give yo whatever you want.

As we’ve discussed as nauseum they don’t want 3rd spaces because they’ve determined assimilation is the path to safety. The trans woman in the olympics didn’t hit the base lift so hardly a ringing endorsement of your outrage. Bodies with vaginas isn’t dehumanizing. Its a specific group which isn’t accurately described by “women”. That’s like saying “bodies over 5’7” is dehumanizing.

Just because you weren't comfortable with your body it doesn't mean you went through the wrong puberty. You're talking about your own subjective feelings, not objective facts.

The wrong puberty ruined my life and made me feel like shit. So in that sense I am talking about feelings. Still the wrong puberty.

This is nonsense. You cannot know that because you are not female. Therefore, you have absolutely no idea what is like to go through female puberty. This all wishfull thinking on your part.

I never claimed to be female but I absolutely know my life would be better not having had my body ruined by male puberty.

Do you think if you were given GnRH analogues and exogenous hormones while you were growing up you would have gone through "female puberty" and you will now be a happy "passing transwoman"?

At least hormonally yes. And yes, I almost certainly would be what with the normal sized body, lack of cromagnon features and all.

You would not. You would only have more health problems by now because of starting with a induced hormonal imbalance at a earlier age.

That’s wild conjecture and contrary to the current medical guidance. At minimum I wouldn’t have less medical problems because I at least wouldn’t be dealing with the complications deriving directly from being forced to live as a man.

I listen to doctors who control actual guidance and aren’t in the pocket of the Christian Right and anti trans money.

No, I don't think teens are mature enough to concept to "transition", especially not when they are being sold a lie by unscrupulous doctors.

And I think that wildly undervalued bodily autonomy for a diminimous risk of harm.

And I want to note you're moving the goal posts. This discussiong began by you claiming that not irreversible stuff was being done to trans identified teens, and now you are talking about consent.

I literally never said that. I said nothing irreversibile was being done to those below their teens.

Explain why gender dysphoria and anorexia nervosa are so different from each other when both involve individuals with a distorted perception of themselves and prone to self-harm?

Because gender dysphoria doesn’t involve a distorted sense of self. It’s discomfort with the actual state of the body not a distorted image of that body. While distorted perception of the body is a factor in anorexia. That’s exactly why they aren’t compriable on this level. It’s comparing OCD and PTSD. They just aren’t the same thing.

Why don't you explain how they were biased for a change? Why don't you tell us exactly what a unbiased research looks like to you for a change?

That ROGD study spoke only to parents of trans people recruited from known anti trans web sites. They didn’t actually gather info from the trans people about a subjective experience and selected from an obviously biased selection.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I literally never said that. I said nothing irreversibile was being done to those below their teens.

This is a lie. You said several times that nothing irreversible is being done to minors below their mid-teens. I asked you to say exactly what years you mean by "mid-teens" - 16, 17? 15, 16? - which you did not do. Various posters gave you evidence that irreversible interventions are being done on children not just before the "mid-teens," but in the early teens as well as before the teenage years even begin. The protocol used in an NIH-funded study sets 8 as the lowest age a child in the US can be put on both GnRH agonists (development blockers) AND exogenous hormones (estrogen or testosterone). We told you of boys - boys whose names were given: Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Trinity Neal - who were put on development blockers AND estrogen at 11 or 11-12. We also told you of girls who've been put on testosterone at 12, and on GnRH several years earlier, followed by T, and of girls in the US who have had their breasts amputated as young as 13.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Please explain how hating your body for no reason other than it not being the body of the opposite sex is not a distorted sense of self?

How thinking you’re the opposite sex/gender than you actually are (even if you say you are the gender/sex you wish, you had to transition to be seen and treated as such in any capacity, so this identity was formed with no actual basis other than hatred of your own body) is not a distorted sense of self?

Are you not uncomfortable with your body because for some reason you think it’s wrong? Even though there’s literally nothing wrong with your body, the issue is how you see your body?

Like- I get the difference you’re pointing out. The question is still why do they treat a mental discomfort with a perfectly healthy body by altering the body as much as possible? The issue is clearly mental not physical.

I know you understand what we are saying and are avoiding addressing it but I’m gonna keep asking.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Please explain how hating your body for no reason other than it not being the body of the opposite sex is not a distorted sense of self?

That’s not the case. If I hadn’t been through an unfortunate caveman puberty it would be less distressing but we can’t all be lucky enough to have reasonable features. Testosterone turns some people into hairy barrels with caveman foreheads. If I had managed to have no beard growth, a sleight build, features that looked less like a Neanderthal, etc I might be less upset about what puberty did to me even if I landed in the “male” range. My image of my gendered features isn’t distorted. I’m just ugly. My image of how fat I am is distorted however.

How thinking you’re the opposite sex/gender than you actually are (even if you say you are the gender/sex you wish, you had to transition to be seen and treated as such in any capacity, so this identity was formed with no actual basis other than hatred of your own body) is not a distorted sense of self?

Because none of that is distorted. Make features felt uncomfortable. Fixing some of them made it not unconfortable. There’s no distortion. We know how our bodies are at any given time. That’s why fixing them helps.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sorry hit save too early.

Are you not uncomfortable with your body because for some reason you think it’s wrong? Even though there’s literally nothing wrong with your body, the issue is how you see your body?

There is something wrong with it. I mean on 2 levels. It was wrong for me those things that naturally developed Were distressing to the point of impairing function. For a variety of reasons I imagine but nowhere was anything distorted. But also my “natural” features would be bad on anyone.

Like- I get the difference you’re pointing out. The question is still why do they treat a mental discomfort with a perfectly healthy body by altering the body as much as possible? The issue is clearly mental not physical.

Because that’s both what works to correct the issue. Bottom surgery cures genitalia dysphoria. Hormones reduce body dysphoria. But also it respects bodily autonomy. Compare this with you weight loss among anorexics which doesn’t actually reduce symptoms and therapy which can at least mitigate or help control them in anorexics but doesn’t stop dysphoria.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

As we’ve discussed as nauseum they don’t want 3rd spaces because they’ve determined assimilation is the path to safety.

And that is YOUR problem, not ours. Women DON'T own you and any other [NOT A WOMAN] absolutely NOTHING!!! We'have more than enough dealing all those men invading women's spaces.

The trans woman in the olympics didn’t hit the base lift so hardly a ringing endorsement of your outrage.

How many athletets do you know that debut at the Olympics at 43 years of age and with a big gap on their sporting carreer?!!!

Bodies with vaginas isn’t dehumanizing. Its a specific group which isn’t accurately described by “women”. That’s like saying “bodies over 5’7” is dehumanizing.

And you say this bullshit just after claiming that me saying you don't give a fuck about women is an ad-hominen attack?!! How is reducing us to body parts or functions not dehumanizing, [circling]? The word women is perfectly fine. There are only two sexes and humans can't change sex. How you "identify as" has no place in biology. That is enough! If you don't see how this is dehumanizing then I won't bother with this stupid rule about "misgendering". We're in this stupid mess because society have bend backwards to accomadate all the absurd demands by men pretending to be "women" for far too long. I'm going to call you exactly what you are: [NOT A WOMAN]. A mysgogynist [not a woman] who don't give a fuck about women like a typical [not a woman].

At least hormonally yes. And yes, I almost certainly would be what with the normal sized body, lack of cromagnon features and all.

You're [not a woman]. You couldn't have gone through a "hormonal female puberty". What a nonsense. Please pick some biology books.

I listen to doctors who control actual guidance and aren’t in the pocket of the Christian Right and anti trans money.

So, you only listed to doctors who are payed by trans lobby, got it. And you didn't read any of those links, aren't you? You just decided they were religious zealots. Anything to keek your male head in the sand, right?

Whatever, arguing with a [not a woman] like you was a total wasted of my time.

Edit: Redacted following ACLU's style to comply with the rules...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

If you are going to violate the rules by blatantly misgendering me I won’t dignify it with a response.