QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Hoe does puberty make someone a monster, as opposed to just making them a fully developed adult?

By twisting their body into a disgusting twisted monstrosity. All excess muscle and hard edges.

How can you go through the wrong puberty? You go through the puberty your body is meant to go through. How is it wrong, rather than just not what you’d prefer?

It’s wrong because it’s the painful one. Instead of the one that would actually fit. So… wrong.

Objectively your life would be better if you learned to manage the mental health issues you have more effectively as well, how can you deny that?

I did. That’s what transition was for. Big improvement in mental health.

Driving and statutory rape involve other people. I honestly don’t care about drinking or smoking ages. We are talking about autonomy in medical decisions.

Why would an adult human consenting to elective surgery and then regretting it be illegal?

You know very well what I meant. Does the fact that some small percent of people regret breast augmentation mean breast augmentation should be illegal?

The comparison is the idea of treating a mental illness by allowing the patient to further fuel their mental illness and alter their body to match something that is a false sense of self perception.

They are different issues with different treatment. You are basically saying that since ssri’s help depression that they should be used to treat everything and we should ban all other treatments. It’s just not logical.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

  1. Cite proof that puberty turns adolescent humans into monsters?

Cite proof that bodies tend to "twist" during puberty? Or… ever?

-2. Cite proof that one puberty is painful but not the other… particularly when the other that you’re referring to often includes monthly cycles of cramps and even running fevers and vomiting…

This doesn’t really explain how puberty can be "wrong", just that it may be painful

3a.

So when people acknowledge that you are a male or call you a man/he/him, you are perfectly fine and it doesn’t bother you?

And you genuinely are under the impression that humans can turn into monsters based on puberty, this is not your mental issues making you think that? It’s an actual thing you’ve seen happen, and not a gross statement colored by your self hatred and hatred for other males even after your transition?

3b. Transition involves the whole of society. We all have to deal with you and your needs, demands, complaining, and constant need for validation.

But the question isn’t if it involves others or whether or not Masks personally approves or not, it’s whether or not we should allow adolescents to just give consent for any of those things.

-4. I do know what you meant. The difference is that adults can give consent to those procedures and they most often aren’t procedures being performed to pretend to be the opposite sex/gender so I’m not sure how you think this is relevant.

No. Regretting a boob job is not something that should render getting them illegal. It’s also not at all comparable to a child’s ability or inability to give any type of consent for anything.

-5. If i were saying that ssri’s should be given for everything that’s what I would have said.

I didn’t say that. Because it’s irrelevant.

The fact is, we are discussing illnesses were an individual has a warped sense of self directly pertaining to the physical state of their body. One (anorexia) is treated by actually attempting to fix the warped sense of self (actually attempting to treat the condition, not just a symptom while simultaneously feeding the mental Health issues) the other (dysphoria) is dealt with by letting the patient play pretend as thoroughly as possible and encouraging the rest of the world to play pretend for them. Why is it that one specific mental illness is treated this way?

What’s not logical is thinking that letting a man intentionally give himself a hormonal imbalance and possibly have invasive surgeries is doing anything to treat their mental illness. I don’t negate it may alleviate the bodily discomfort- dysphoria is clearly about more than just that and trans people clearly still have a very long list of other issues that transition actually seems to make worse so again-

The comparison is treating a mental illness by adjusting the physical as much as possible to resemble the warped sense of self the patient has.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

  1. I’m not showing you a picture. But I’m fuck ugly because of male puberty.

  2. Again I had to live with becoming a monster and living in that disgusting body. I wouldn’t have had to if people would have let me have bodily autonomy. I’m speaking from personal experience.

3a. It makes me sad but it’s not as crushing as it used to be. Because transition works to ameliorate dysphoria.

3b. And not transitioning involves inability to function due to dysphoria, suicide attempt burdens, just as much complaining and trouble if not more. Plus it prevents a person from suffering.

  1. And I think teens should have medical bodily autonomy. Apparently you disagree.

  2. You are saying that some treatment works for one mental condition it should be used for another distinct and unrelated one based on no evidence.

Anorexia and dysphoria are treated differently because they are different conditions that have different manifestations and respond to things differently. You can’t conflate them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

  1. Ugly doesn’t equal monster.

-2. Male also doesn’t equal monster. If men are monsters so are women because we are the same species.

Your body developed as it was supposed to. Your mind is obviously the issue.

3a. If transition helped with anything significant aside from physical discomfort trans people wouldn’t need to claim to be the opposite sex/gender and wouldn’t be triggered or need to be validated by others. They would not need to cling to debunked pseudoscience or try to convince the rest of the world that language has evolved to accommodate 1% of the world. If the truth of your biology makes you sad even after you’ve transitioned it sounds like nothing concerning your mental illness has been treated.

3b. if you can’t function and are suicidal- hospitalization. It’s that simple. With such a small population of trans people, I doubt hospitals would run out of space. If your mental illness is so severe you can’t function at all and you want to kill yourself, you need actual mental health treatment and monitoring, not surgeries and intentional hormonal imbalances that are guaranteed to send an already mentally unstable person into a world that won’t accept them as they wish to be seen. That sounds pretty dangerous and negligent. Isn’t the life expectancy like age 35? And since only 38 trans people were killed in our country last year, I’m guessing a lot of the trans people dying at or around 35 aren’t being murdered…

I think the rest of your comment and your views on sexed bodies means I don’t think your stance on teens transitioning is one I’d trust. I’d rather hear from people who don’t have warped understanding of sexed bodies, so this isn’t a conversation I can have with you because frankly I don’t think you’re stable enough to offer a perspective that should be taken seriously. Idk how else to word that. You clearly have issues with the male form and males in general, not even getting into your views on females.

I admire how committed you are to avoiding addressing what I and the other poster were asking about why one specific mental illness is "treated" by altering the physical and exacerbating the mental illness. You can keep trying to imply Im saying one treatment fits all- I never said anything close. The treatment for anorexia obviously wouldn’t be the same as the treatment for dysphoria. What we are saying is that whatever the treatment for dysphoria is, it should treat the mental illness not just the discomfort. It should actually deal with the mental illness and not just seek to alleviate a side effect. Especially when alleviating the side effect pushed the patient further into their mental illness.

So, we understand that anorexia and dysphoria are different conditions. They are both mental conditions and only one is actually being treated in a manner that addresses and treats the actual mental illness.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

  1. Does when you are this ugly. And the fact that I looked so much like pictures of my father, a monster in that way and a different one, certainly didn’t help.

  2. Males don’t have to be monstrous. I mean in a couple generations with better socialization maybe not. But ones who looked like I did still would be physically. But sure normal looking or attractive men exist.

  3. Transition reduces dysphoria and leads to an extremely high satisfaction percentage in treatment. We live in a world where trans women Aren’t safe or accepted. Normalization takes work. Nobody likes being treated as a freak. It’s bad for mental health. Trans or not.

3b. Transition makes us not want to Jill ourselves. It’s effective treatment. And anything that treats without involuntary commitment is preferable. Involuntary commitments espescially essentially permanent ones that would have to be pup in place to stop suicide attempts without transition are wildly inhumane.

So, we understand that anorexia and dysphoria are different conditions. They are both mental conditions and only one is actually being treated in a manner that addresses and treats the actual mental illness.

Transition does address the illness. The illness is the distress not the identification. Transition relieves or at least ameliorates that distress. It’s directly treating the symptoms. And in a way that other therapeutic options including therapy have never been shown to address.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. Literally- no

  2. Again, literally no.

  3. Trans people have been around forever though, right? Normalization isn’t coming because it’s not normal and it’s invasive to other people for several reasons. Trans people will always be othered and their approval rate drops annually the harder they try to normalize themselves. But keep hope alive I guess

  4. If You can’t function in your day to day and feel suicidal just because you don’t like your perfectly healthy sexed body- you should be hospitalized. That suggests a deeper than usual level of mental illness. It’s not inhumane to hospitalize people who can’t function until they can. People are hospitalized long term all the time when they need it. Alot of trans people who aren’t hospitalized clearly don’t live in the same reality as the rest of us- i think if I took the time there’s a pretty solid case for keeping them hospitalized, this just isn’t the post for that. But frankly, trans people are actually prime candidates for long term hospitalization. Not all- MANY. It’s only inhumane to you because you wouldn’t get what you want. It’s always inhumane to you when you don’t get what you want.

  5. it clearly doesn’t address the illness at all. Every trans person here proves that even if just in some small ways every time they comment. Every trans person I’ve ever been aware of confirms the obvious fact that their mental illness is not being addressed. I cannot think of one trans person who hasn’t raised alarms. It’s so obviously false that transition treats anything directly that I have to assume you’re making a joke when you claim it does. If the trans community is truly indicative of what it looks like to effectively treat dysphoria than I was right about hospitalization because there isn’t enough treatment in the world to help them.

The discomfort is literally not the illness, the identification clearly is. It’s absurd to pretend it’s not. If tou felt just discomfort and that’s it, you’d have no issue acknowledging you’re a man and would not want to be seen as a woman, would understand why you aren’t one, wouldn’t think men were monsters… I could go on but there’s no need because everyone else already knows it all. The more you try to act like you’ve been treated effectively the more apparent it becomes that you have not been.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Normalization isn’t coming because it’s not normal and it’s invasive to other people for several reasons. Trans people will always be othered and their approval rate drops annually the harder they try to normalize themselves.

Replace trans people with any other marginalized group and read it again. Then explain to me how it isn’t wildly transphobic.

4 You are literally saying many trans people need to be locked up long term. That is hateful to a level I didn’t even imagine you were capable of. I won’t be responding further.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not replace trans with any marginalized group.

It’s replace trans with any other mentally ill community/person

There is no other marginalized group that compares.

I don’t think all trans people should be hospitalized. I think anyone who can’t function because their brain tells them their body is wrong even though there’s nothing wrong with their body would benefit from hospitalization. It’s not hate. It’s concern. The issue is the suicide threat. I want to prevent them from killing them selves. I’d hospitalize ANYONE threatening suicide.

I also clearly said not all trans people need to be hospitalized but go ahead and read what you want to read and ignore the full context and wording