QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Someone who doesn’t want breasts getting them removed is not a harm. They’re happier and not debilitated. You just don’t care value bodily autonomy.

Just like you keep not adressing the evidence that 13 years old girls have gotten their breasts amputated, which is something irreversible being done to teens, exactly what you claimed it didn't happen. And speaking of harmful practices trans identified girls are encouraged to do, I forgot to mention the horros of breast binding. But of course, you don't give a dam about what happen to young trans identified females, just like you don't give a dam about women being told to use de-humanizing "inclusive" terms to talk about themselves and female anatomy, or how women are being harmed because of males claiming to be "women" are invading (formerly) women-only spaces like bathrooms, refuges, sports, hospital wards, prissons, etcetera. Just like you don't give a dam about TRA policies distorting statistics and lying about women getting more violent. Just like you don't give a dam about dissenting women receiving death and rape threats, being smeared, getting fired, or getting physically assaulted for stating the obvious fact that men are not and will never be women regardless of how many hormones they take, or how many surgeries they undergone, or how many sexist stereotypes they try to live up to.

When it became clear this was just an ad homonym skred I just stopped reading and skipped to the next paragraph.

You call yourself a "woman", yet you have zero sympathy for actual women. We're nothing more than human shields for you. Let's be real, deep down you likely know that you will never been anything but what you hate the most. Why else, do you throw a tantrum every time people refuse to play along with the obvious lies about who you are? You need to be honest with yourself and learn to be comfortable on your own skin rather than live vicariously through trans identified children and teens.

And again.

Nobody goes through the wrong puberty as nobody is born in the wrong body. Who does enjoy puberty, anyway? Do you think that being unconfortable with your changing body is an exclusive experience of trans identified people? I wasn't exactly happy when my breasts started to develope or when I got my first periods or when I was told I have to shave because I was a girl. Was I a "trans boy" or "non-binary person" or whatever else? I mean, I don't wear dresses or make-up, so I must not be a woman, right? That is the obvious conclusion if I were to follow QT logic, right?

I went through the wrong puberty. One made me a monster and miserable the other would have been fine. So some People do go through the wrong puberty. Just because you didn’t want the other one doesn’t mean no one did. Objectively my life would have been better without male puberty. How can you deny that?

Listen, gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues, more commonly known as "puberty blockers" are NOT reversible

Doctors say different. I’ll trust them over you.

Yet she later regreted all of this. How can you say children and teens are mature enough to consent to any of this?

I said teens not children. Stop misquoting me. And a tiny regret rate doesn’t negate possible consent. Some 5 percent of adults regret breast augmentation. Should that be illegal?

It is sometimes transition or suicide. I personally hit that point. I made a pro con list.

why are trans identified people are offered hormones and surgeries to "transition", but no one thinks on giving anorexic patients a liposuction?

Please stop comparing gender dysphoria and anorexia. They aren’t the same. I currently have diagnosis for both. (After a reevaluation my Ednos diagnosis was recatagorized, not a great congratulations on the weight loss present). They are not the same thing and it’s extremely disrespectful to try to force a comparison.

And you have the nerve to complaining that I or others can't provide you with the data you ask for when it's trans activists who are doing the very best not to allow any debate or research that may contradicts their dogmas? It's trans activists who don't want people researching detransition or recent changes in the demographis of young patients with gender dysphoria. It's transactivists who seek to punish anyone raising safeguarding concerns or just get a more a cautios position. All of this under excuse that it's anti-"trans" propaganda. What a joke! Anything it's "transphobic" for you all, starting with reality itself.

Nobody cares if unbiased and fair research gets done on detransition. But y’all aren’t doing that. That ROGD study is the perfect example.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I went through the wrong puberty. One made me a monster and miserable the other would have been fine. So some People do go through the wrong puberty. Just because you didn’t want the other one doesn’t mean no one did. Objectively my life would have been better without male puberty. How can you deny that?

How does puberty make someone a monster, as opposed to just making them a fully developed adult?

How can you go through the wrong puberty? You go through the puberty your body is meant to go through. How is it wrong, rather than just not what you’d prefer?

Objectively your life would be better if you learned to manage the mental health issues you have more effectively as well, how can you deny that?

« And a tiny regret rate doesn’t negate possible consent. »

No, but being under the age of consent does negate possible consent, or are we just letting underage people do whatever the fuck they want if they say they gave consent? So no more statutory rape, no more drinking or smoking or driving age limits?

« Some 5 percent of adults regret breast augmentation. Should that be illegal? »

Why would an adult human consenting to elective surgery and then regretting it be illegal?

« It is sometimes transition or suicide. I personally hit that point. I made a pro con list. »

Anyone threatening suicide should be hospitalized until they aren’t a threat to themselves. Aside from trans people, what is an instance where giving into a suicide threat (when they are demanding something in exchange for not killing themselves) justified?

« Please stop comparing gender dysphoria and anorexia. They aren’t the same. I currently have diagnosis for both. (After a reevaluation my Ednos diagnosis was recatagorized, not a great congratulations on the weight loss present). They are not the same thing and it’s extremely disrespectful to try to force a comparison »

The comparison is the idea of treating a mental illness by allowing the patient to further fuel their mental illness and alter their body to match something that is a false sense of self perception.

Also- the fact that you want to separate things that aren’t the same when it suits you but want to force things that aren’t the same together when it suits you is kind of hilarious.

Edit- how not hoe lmao

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Hoe does puberty make someone a monster, as opposed to just making them a fully developed adult?

By twisting their body into a disgusting twisted monstrosity. All excess muscle and hard edges.

How can you go through the wrong puberty? You go through the puberty your body is meant to go through. How is it wrong, rather than just not what you’d prefer?

It’s wrong because it’s the painful one. Instead of the one that would actually fit. So… wrong.

Objectively your life would be better if you learned to manage the mental health issues you have more effectively as well, how can you deny that?

I did. That’s what transition was for. Big improvement in mental health.

Driving and statutory rape involve other people. I honestly don’t care about drinking or smoking ages. We are talking about autonomy in medical decisions.

Why would an adult human consenting to elective surgery and then regretting it be illegal?

You know very well what I meant. Does the fact that some small percent of people regret breast augmentation mean breast augmentation should be illegal?

The comparison is the idea of treating a mental illness by allowing the patient to further fuel their mental illness and alter their body to match something that is a false sense of self perception.

They are different issues with different treatment. You are basically saying that since ssri’s help depression that they should be used to treat everything and we should ban all other treatments. It’s just not logical.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

  1. Cite proof that puberty turns adolescent humans into monsters?

Cite proof that bodies tend to "twist" during puberty? Or… ever?

-2. Cite proof that one puberty is painful but not the other… particularly when the other that you’re referring to often includes monthly cycles of cramps and even running fevers and vomiting…

This doesn’t really explain how puberty can be "wrong", just that it may be painful

3a.

So when people acknowledge that you are a male or call you a man/he/him, you are perfectly fine and it doesn’t bother you?

And you genuinely are under the impression that humans can turn into monsters based on puberty, this is not your mental issues making you think that? It’s an actual thing you’ve seen happen, and not a gross statement colored by your self hatred and hatred for other males even after your transition?

3b. Transition involves the whole of society. We all have to deal with you and your needs, demands, complaining, and constant need for validation.

But the question isn’t if it involves others or whether or not Masks personally approves or not, it’s whether or not we should allow adolescents to just give consent for any of those things.

-4. I do know what you meant. The difference is that adults can give consent to those procedures and they most often aren’t procedures being performed to pretend to be the opposite sex/gender so I’m not sure how you think this is relevant.

No. Regretting a boob job is not something that should render getting them illegal. It’s also not at all comparable to a child’s ability or inability to give any type of consent for anything.

-5. If i were saying that ssri’s should be given for everything that’s what I would have said.

I didn’t say that. Because it’s irrelevant.

The fact is, we are discussing illnesses were an individual has a warped sense of self directly pertaining to the physical state of their body. One (anorexia) is treated by actually attempting to fix the warped sense of self (actually attempting to treat the condition, not just a symptom while simultaneously feeding the mental Health issues) the other (dysphoria) is dealt with by letting the patient play pretend as thoroughly as possible and encouraging the rest of the world to play pretend for them. Why is it that one specific mental illness is treated this way?

What’s not logical is thinking that letting a man intentionally give himself a hormonal imbalance and possibly have invasive surgeries is doing anything to treat their mental illness. I don’t negate it may alleviate the bodily discomfort- dysphoria is clearly about more than just that and trans people clearly still have a very long list of other issues that transition actually seems to make worse so again-

The comparison is treating a mental illness by adjusting the physical as much as possible to resemble the warped sense of self the patient has.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

  1. I’m not showing you a picture. But I’m fuck ugly because of male puberty.

  2. Again I had to live with becoming a monster and living in that disgusting body. I wouldn’t have had to if people would have let me have bodily autonomy. I’m speaking from personal experience.

3a. It makes me sad but it’s not as crushing as it used to be. Because transition works to ameliorate dysphoria.

3b. And not transitioning involves inability to function due to dysphoria, suicide attempt burdens, just as much complaining and trouble if not more. Plus it prevents a person from suffering.

  1. And I think teens should have medical bodily autonomy. Apparently you disagree.

  2. You are saying that some treatment works for one mental condition it should be used for another distinct and unrelated one based on no evidence.

Anorexia and dysphoria are treated differently because they are different conditions that have different manifestations and respond to things differently. You can’t conflate them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

  1. Ugly doesn’t equal monster.

-2. Male also doesn’t equal monster. If men are monsters so are women because we are the same species.

Your body developed as it was supposed to. Your mind is obviously the issue.

3a. If transition helped with anything significant aside from physical discomfort trans people wouldn’t need to claim to be the opposite sex/gender and wouldn’t be triggered or need to be validated by others. They would not need to cling to debunked pseudoscience or try to convince the rest of the world that language has evolved to accommodate 1% of the world. If the truth of your biology makes you sad even after you’ve transitioned it sounds like nothing concerning your mental illness has been treated.

3b. if you can’t function and are suicidal- hospitalization. It’s that simple. With such a small population of trans people, I doubt hospitals would run out of space. If your mental illness is so severe you can’t function at all and you want to kill yourself, you need actual mental health treatment and monitoring, not surgeries and intentional hormonal imbalances that are guaranteed to send an already mentally unstable person into a world that won’t accept them as they wish to be seen. That sounds pretty dangerous and negligent. Isn’t the life expectancy like age 35? And since only 38 trans people were killed in our country last year, I’m guessing a lot of the trans people dying at or around 35 aren’t being murdered…

I think the rest of your comment and your views on sexed bodies means I don’t think your stance on teens transitioning is one I’d trust. I’d rather hear from people who don’t have warped understanding of sexed bodies, so this isn’t a conversation I can have with you because frankly I don’t think you’re stable enough to offer a perspective that should be taken seriously. Idk how else to word that. You clearly have issues with the male form and males in general, not even getting into your views on females.

I admire how committed you are to avoiding addressing what I and the other poster were asking about why one specific mental illness is "treated" by altering the physical and exacerbating the mental illness. You can keep trying to imply Im saying one treatment fits all- I never said anything close. The treatment for anorexia obviously wouldn’t be the same as the treatment for dysphoria. What we are saying is that whatever the treatment for dysphoria is, it should treat the mental illness not just the discomfort. It should actually deal with the mental illness and not just seek to alleviate a side effect. Especially when alleviating the side effect pushed the patient further into their mental illness.

So, we understand that anorexia and dysphoria are different conditions. They are both mental conditions and only one is actually being treated in a manner that addresses and treats the actual mental illness.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

  1. Does when you are this ugly. And the fact that I looked so much like pictures of my father, a monster in that way and a different one, certainly didn’t help.

  2. Males don’t have to be monstrous. I mean in a couple generations with better socialization maybe not. But ones who looked like I did still would be physically. But sure normal looking or attractive men exist.

  3. Transition reduces dysphoria and leads to an extremely high satisfaction percentage in treatment. We live in a world where trans women Aren’t safe or accepted. Normalization takes work. Nobody likes being treated as a freak. It’s bad for mental health. Trans or not.

3b. Transition makes us not want to Jill ourselves. It’s effective treatment. And anything that treats without involuntary commitment is preferable. Involuntary commitments espescially essentially permanent ones that would have to be pup in place to stop suicide attempts without transition are wildly inhumane.

So, we understand that anorexia and dysphoria are different conditions. They are both mental conditions and only one is actually being treated in a manner that addresses and treats the actual mental illness.

Transition does address the illness. The illness is the distress not the identification. Transition relieves or at least ameliorates that distress. It’s directly treating the symptoms. And in a way that other therapeutic options including therapy have never been shown to address.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. Literally- no

  2. Again, literally no.

  3. Trans people have been around forever though, right? Normalization isn’t coming because it’s not normal and it’s invasive to other people for several reasons. Trans people will always be othered and their approval rate drops annually the harder they try to normalize themselves. But keep hope alive I guess

  4. If You can’t function in your day to day and feel suicidal just because you don’t like your perfectly healthy sexed body- you should be hospitalized. That suggests a deeper than usual level of mental illness. It’s not inhumane to hospitalize people who can’t function until they can. People are hospitalized long term all the time when they need it. Alot of trans people who aren’t hospitalized clearly don’t live in the same reality as the rest of us- i think if I took the time there’s a pretty solid case for keeping them hospitalized, this just isn’t the post for that. But frankly, trans people are actually prime candidates for long term hospitalization. Not all- MANY. It’s only inhumane to you because you wouldn’t get what you want. It’s always inhumane to you when you don’t get what you want.

  5. it clearly doesn’t address the illness at all. Every trans person here proves that even if just in some small ways every time they comment. Every trans person I’ve ever been aware of confirms the obvious fact that their mental illness is not being addressed. I cannot think of one trans person who hasn’t raised alarms. It’s so obviously false that transition treats anything directly that I have to assume you’re making a joke when you claim it does. If the trans community is truly indicative of what it looks like to effectively treat dysphoria than I was right about hospitalization because there isn’t enough treatment in the world to help them.

The discomfort is literally not the illness, the identification clearly is. It’s absurd to pretend it’s not. If tou felt just discomfort and that’s it, you’d have no issue acknowledging you’re a man and would not want to be seen as a woman, would understand why you aren’t one, wouldn’t think men were monsters… I could go on but there’s no need because everyone else already knows it all. The more you try to act like you’ve been treated effectively the more apparent it becomes that you have not been.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Normalization isn’t coming because it’s not normal and it’s invasive to other people for several reasons. Trans people will always be othered and their approval rate drops annually the harder they try to normalize themselves.

Replace trans people with any other marginalized group and read it again. Then explain to me how it isn’t wildly transphobic.

4 You are literally saying many trans people need to be locked up long term. That is hateful to a level I didn’t even imagine you were capable of. I won’t be responding further.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not replace trans with any marginalized group.

It’s replace trans with any other mentally ill community/person

There is no other marginalized group that compares.

I don’t think all trans people should be hospitalized. I think anyone who can’t function because their brain tells them their body is wrong even though there’s nothing wrong with their body would benefit from hospitalization. It’s not hate. It’s concern. The issue is the suicide threat. I want to prevent them from killing them selves. I’d hospitalize ANYONE threatening suicide.

I also clearly said not all trans people need to be hospitalized but go ahead and read what you want to read and ignore the full context and wording

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Someone who doesn’t want breasts getting them removed is not a harm. They’re happier and not debilitated. You just don’t care value bodily autonomy.

I "love" how you are still not admitting that irreversible stuff is being done to teenagers. And, of course, not mention of breast binding on your part. Is that practice "harmles", too?

When it became clear this was just an ad homonym skred I just stopped reading and skipped to the next paragraph.

And again.

How am I wrong about anything I said? You have proven time and time again that you don't have any empathy for women and you only view us as human shields and as a way to get whatever you want. You have shown zero sympathy about all the harm that TRA's policies causes to women, yet you cry over how the "mean" women aren't working on giving you third spaces. You dismiss women's issues, and yet you wan't we feel sorry for you. Maybe you should start complaining to trans activists. If they can get male sex offenders jailed alongside women, medical journals using stupid and de-humanizing terms like "bodies with vagina", or a 43-year-old man competing at a women's event at the Olympics, they surely have the power to give you whatever you want.

I went through the wrong puberty. One made me a monster and miserable the other would have been fine. So some People do go through the wrong puberty. Just because you didn’t want the other one doesn’t mean no one did.

Just because you weren't comfortable with your body it doesn't mean you went through the wrong puberty. You're talking about your own subjective feelings, not objective facts.

Objectively my life would have been better without male puberty. How can you deny that?

This is nonsense. You cannot know that because you are not female. Therefore, you have absolutely no idea what is like to go through female puberty. This all wishfull thinking on your part. Do you think if you were given GnRH analogues and exogenous hormones while you were growing up you would have gone through "female puberty" and you will now now a happy "passing transwoman"? You would not. You would only have more health problems by now because of starting with a induced hormonal imbalance at a earlier age. That is why you need to stop proyecting your own fantasies on children and teens.

Doctors say different. I’ll trust them over you.

The Pediatric Endocrine Society’s Statement on Puberty Blockers Isn’t Just Deceptive. It’s Dangerous - by endocrinologist Michael K. Laidlaw

Gender Dysphoria and Children: An Endocrinologist’s Evaluation of ‘I am Jazz’

Challenges in Timing Puberty Suppression for Gender-Nonconforming Adolescents - written by one of the authors of the Dutch protocol

Children's transgender clinic hit by 35 resignations in three years as psychologists warn of gender dysphoria 'over-diagnoses'

Why I Resigned from Tavistock: Trans-Identified Children Need Therapy, Not Just ‘Affirmation’ and Drugs

Are puberty blockers reversible? The NHS no longer says so

Children's gender identity clinic concerns go back 15 years - about Tavistock doctors' concerns over "puberty blockers"

Irish College of GPs reverses stance on puberty blockers

Time to Hit Pause on 'Pausing' Puberty in Gender-Dysphoric Youth - by endocrinologist William Malone

One Year Since Finland Broke with WPATH "Standards of Care"

Sweden's Karolinska Ends the Use of Puberty Blockers for <16: New policy statement from the Karolinska Hospital

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

Irresponsible Gender-Transition Treatments on Children - letters from two doctors

Is that enough for you or do you only listen to doctors that tell you what you want to hear?

I said teens not children. Stop misquoting me. And a tiny regret rate doesn’t negate possible consent. Some 5 percent of adults regret breast augmentation. Should that be illegal?

Adults and teens are not comparable. No, I don't think teens are mature enough to concept to "transition", especially not when they are being sold a lie by unscrupulous doctors.

And I want to note you're moving the goal posts. This discussiong began by you claiming that not irreversible stuff was being done to trans identified teens, and now you are talking about consent.

Please stop comparing gender dysphoria and anorexia. They aren’t the same. I currently have diagnosis for both. (After a reevaluation my Ednos diagnosis was recatagorized, not a great congratulations on the weight loss present). They are not the same thing and it’s extremely disrespectful to try to force a comparison.

I'm not going to stop anything. Saying they are not comparable tell us absolutely nothing. Explain why gender dysphoria and anorexia nervosa are so different from each other when both involve individuals with a distorted perception of themselves and prone to self-harm? You really don't know how to explain it, aren't you? That is why you, and other trans identified people, try so hard to shut up the comparison with claims of being "disrespectful". How convenient for you all that any question that threathens your beliefs are "offensive" or "transphobic".

Nobody cares if unbiased and fair research gets done on detransition. But y’all aren’t doing that. That ROGD study is the perfect example.

Again with the same nonsense. Do you seriously think you are going to convince anyone by calling anything you don't like anti-trans propaganda? Why don't you explain how they were biased for a change? Why don't you tell us exactly what a unbiased research looks like to you for a change?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

How am I wrong about anything I said? You have proven time and time again that you don't have any empathy for women and you only view us as human shields and as a way to get whatever you want. You have shown zero sympathy about all the harm that TRA's policies causes to women, yet you cry over how the "mean" women aren't working on giving you third spaces. You dismiss women's issues, and yet you wan't we feel sorry for you.

I’m ignoring your ad hominem attacks. You can stop.

Maybe you should to start complaining to trans activists. If they can get male sex offenders jailed alongside women, medical journals using stupid and de-humanizing terms like "bodies with vagina", or a 43-year-old man competing at a women's event at the Olympics, they surely have the power to give yo whatever you want.

As we’ve discussed as nauseum they don’t want 3rd spaces because they’ve determined assimilation is the path to safety. The trans woman in the olympics didn’t hit the base lift so hardly a ringing endorsement of your outrage. Bodies with vaginas isn’t dehumanizing. Its a specific group which isn’t accurately described by “women”. That’s like saying “bodies over 5’7” is dehumanizing.

Just because you weren't comfortable with your body it doesn't mean you went through the wrong puberty. You're talking about your own subjective feelings, not objective facts.

The wrong puberty ruined my life and made me feel like shit. So in that sense I am talking about feelings. Still the wrong puberty.

This is nonsense. You cannot know that because you are not female. Therefore, you have absolutely no idea what is like to go through female puberty. This all wishfull thinking on your part.

I never claimed to be female but I absolutely know my life would be better not having had my body ruined by male puberty.

Do you think if you were given GnRH analogues and exogenous hormones while you were growing up you would have gone through "female puberty" and you will now be a happy "passing transwoman"?

At least hormonally yes. And yes, I almost certainly would be what with the normal sized body, lack of cromagnon features and all.

You would not. You would only have more health problems by now because of starting with a induced hormonal imbalance at a earlier age.

That’s wild conjecture and contrary to the current medical guidance. At minimum I wouldn’t have less medical problems because I at least wouldn’t be dealing with the complications deriving directly from being forced to live as a man.

I listen to doctors who control actual guidance and aren’t in the pocket of the Christian Right and anti trans money.

No, I don't think teens are mature enough to concept to "transition", especially not when they are being sold a lie by unscrupulous doctors.

And I think that wildly undervalued bodily autonomy for a diminimous risk of harm.

And I want to note you're moving the goal posts. This discussiong began by you claiming that not irreversible stuff was being done to trans identified teens, and now you are talking about consent.

I literally never said that. I said nothing irreversibile was being done to those below their teens.

Explain why gender dysphoria and anorexia nervosa are so different from each other when both involve individuals with a distorted perception of themselves and prone to self-harm?

Because gender dysphoria doesn’t involve a distorted sense of self. It’s discomfort with the actual state of the body not a distorted image of that body. While distorted perception of the body is a factor in anorexia. That’s exactly why they aren’t compriable on this level. It’s comparing OCD and PTSD. They just aren’t the same thing.

Why don't you explain how they were biased for a change? Why don't you tell us exactly what a unbiased research looks like to you for a change?

That ROGD study spoke only to parents of trans people recruited from known anti trans web sites. They didn’t actually gather info from the trans people about a subjective experience and selected from an obviously biased selection.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I literally never said that. I said nothing irreversibile was being done to those below their teens.

This is a lie. You said several times that nothing irreversible is being done to minors below their mid-teens. I asked you to say exactly what years you mean by "mid-teens" - 16, 17? 15, 16? - which you did not do. Various posters gave you evidence that irreversible interventions are being done on children not just before the "mid-teens," but in the early teens as well as before the teenage years even begin. The protocol used in an NIH-funded study sets 8 as the lowest age a child in the US can be put on both GnRH agonists (development blockers) AND exogenous hormones (estrogen or testosterone). We told you of boys - boys whose names were given: Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Trinity Neal - who were put on development blockers AND estrogen at 11 or 11-12. We also told you of girls who've been put on testosterone at 12, and on GnRH several years earlier, followed by T, and of girls in the US who have had their breasts amputated as young as 13.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Please explain how hating your body for no reason other than it not being the body of the opposite sex is not a distorted sense of self?

How thinking you’re the opposite sex/gender than you actually are (even if you say you are the gender/sex you wish, you had to transition to be seen and treated as such in any capacity, so this identity was formed with no actual basis other than hatred of your own body) is not a distorted sense of self?

Are you not uncomfortable with your body because for some reason you think it’s wrong? Even though there’s literally nothing wrong with your body, the issue is how you see your body?

Like- I get the difference you’re pointing out. The question is still why do they treat a mental discomfort with a perfectly healthy body by altering the body as much as possible? The issue is clearly mental not physical.

I know you understand what we are saying and are avoiding addressing it but I’m gonna keep asking.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Please explain how hating your body for no reason other than it not being the body of the opposite sex is not a distorted sense of self?

That’s not the case. If I hadn’t been through an unfortunate caveman puberty it would be less distressing but we can’t all be lucky enough to have reasonable features. Testosterone turns some people into hairy barrels with caveman foreheads. If I had managed to have no beard growth, a sleight build, features that looked less like a Neanderthal, etc I might be less upset about what puberty did to me even if I landed in the “male” range. My image of my gendered features isn’t distorted. I’m just ugly. My image of how fat I am is distorted however.

How thinking you’re the opposite sex/gender than you actually are (even if you say you are the gender/sex you wish, you had to transition to be seen and treated as such in any capacity, so this identity was formed with no actual basis other than hatred of your own body) is not a distorted sense of self?

Because none of that is distorted. Make features felt uncomfortable. Fixing some of them made it not unconfortable. There’s no distortion. We know how our bodies are at any given time. That’s why fixing them helps.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t even see the point in trying to form a reply because your response just illustrates exactly what Im talking about. The issue is 1,000,000% your mind. That’s what should be fixed. There was nothing that needs fixing from a physical aspect. Even post transition You can’t even just say, "there’s nothing wrong with the male form, it just didn’t feel right to me". Nothing mental health wise has been treated for you. I don’t think I ever realized how true that is. Like I don’t think I realized how bad it was until I was gone for a few weeks and came back and saw your comments with fresh eyes. It’s really apparent.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sorry hit save too early.

Are you not uncomfortable with your body because for some reason you think it’s wrong? Even though there’s literally nothing wrong with your body, the issue is how you see your body?

There is something wrong with it. I mean on 2 levels. It was wrong for me those things that naturally developed Were distressing to the point of impairing function. For a variety of reasons I imagine but nowhere was anything distorted. But also my “natural” features would be bad on anyone.

Like- I get the difference you’re pointing out. The question is still why do they treat a mental discomfort with a perfectly healthy body by altering the body as much as possible? The issue is clearly mental not physical.

Because that’s both what works to correct the issue. Bottom surgery cures genitalia dysphoria. Hormones reduce body dysphoria. But also it respects bodily autonomy. Compare this with you weight loss among anorexics which doesn’t actually reduce symptoms and therapy which can at least mitigate or help control them in anorexics but doesn’t stop dysphoria.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. There was nothing wrong with your body before. You just didn’t like it because there is and was something wrong with your brain.

And if you’re saying you were "ugly"- so? Can you even judge that accurately since you think men are apes and monsters and subhuman and all the other fucked up things you’ve referred to men as? This is why I say your perspective is not one that any one should rely on or trust, it’s so obviously informed by your mental health.

-2. The distress is not the whole issue and there are plenty of cases of trans people being just as unhappy and suicidal post transition. They still need others to pretend for them, they still get triggered, still rely heavily on a world who won’t ever see them as they hope to be seen to be responsible for their mental health. There are so many flaws and red flags surrounding transition.

If it were effective treatment, transwomen would be able to say "Im a man, I have dysphoria and hormonally and (possibly) surgically altered my body to remove sex markers that caused me distress and attempted to reconstruct my shape to resemble the opposite sex because it made it easier for me to function daily. I am not a woman in any capacity, but I prefer to be referred to as a transwoman and with female pronouns because male language triggers my dysphoria." When you can say that, when all trans people can say that (or the TM equivalent), and respect other people’s boundaries and spaces, I’ll believe you are being treated properly. When transition only involves the patient and nobody else, I’ll believe it’s an effective treatment.

Eta- edited to fix the numbering, how do you number on this site?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

  1. Not just ugly but uniquely so. Powerfully ugly.

And I do think men are evil but they can still be attractive. Some are spared the worst of male puberty.

2 The distress is the whole issue. Without that it isn’t dysphoria. Transition reduces dysphoria by fixing the body.

re: numbering

I don’t know either.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. There is no level of ugly that renders a human a monster. Attractive people can be monsters as well.

-2. So you don’t think you’re a woman? You don’t identify as a woman? You are just a dysphoric man? Because if you say anything less than yes to any of those questions, you’ve proven that it’s not just distress over your body. The distress is related to thinking you’re a woman/thinking you identify as one

-3. I hate that I don’t know how to number things. Numbering makes it so much easier

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

As we’ve discussed as nauseum they don’t want 3rd spaces because they’ve determined assimilation is the path to safety.

And that is YOUR problem, not ours. Women DON'T own you and any other [NOT A WOMAN] absolutely NOTHING!!! We'have more than enough dealing all those men invading women's spaces.

The trans woman in the olympics didn’t hit the base lift so hardly a ringing endorsement of your outrage.

How many athletets do you know that debut at the Olympics at 43 years of age and with a big gap on their sporting carreer?!!!

Bodies with vaginas isn’t dehumanizing. Its a specific group which isn’t accurately described by “women”. That’s like saying “bodies over 5’7” is dehumanizing.

And you say this bullshit just after claiming that me saying you don't give a fuck about women is an ad-hominen attack?!! How is reducing us to body parts or functions not dehumanizing, [circling]? The word women is perfectly fine. There are only two sexes and humans can't change sex. How you "identify as" has no place in biology. That is enough! If you don't see how this is dehumanizing then I won't bother with this stupid rule about "misgendering". We're in this stupid mess because society have bend backwards to accomadate all the absurd demands by men pretending to be "women" for far too long. I'm going to call you exactly what you are: [NOT A WOMAN]. A mysgogynist [not a woman] who don't give a fuck about women like a typical [not a woman].

At least hormonally yes. And yes, I almost certainly would be what with the normal sized body, lack of cromagnon features and all.

You're [not a woman]. You couldn't have gone through a "hormonal female puberty". What a nonsense. Please pick some biology books.

I listen to doctors who control actual guidance and aren’t in the pocket of the Christian Right and anti trans money.

So, you only listed to doctors who are payed by trans lobby, got it. And you didn't read any of those links, aren't you? You just decided they were religious zealots. Anything to keek your male head in the sand, right?

Whatever, arguing with a [not a woman] like you was a total wasted of my time.

Edit: Redacted following ACLU's style to comply with the rules...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

If you are going to violate the rules by blatantly misgendering me I won’t dignify it with a response.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

What is the problem, [not a woman]? Didn't you say that "transition" was an adequated treatment for gender dysphoria? If you say your mental health has improved because of it, then you shouldn't have a meltdown every single time anyone refers to your sex. If you were secure about not being a man my words wouldn't affect you. I don't have an existencial crisis when people mistake me for a man because I know I'm a woman.

Edit: Redacted following ACLU's style to comply with the rules...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I’m not having a meltdown, but you aren’t respecting the rules of the space and your insults demonstrate that you clearly aren’t interested in productive discussion.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I tried to have a productive discussion. You're the one who wasn't interested. I just had enough with your bullshit.

By the way, it's pretty funny you say you're not having a meltdown when you immediately made a thread to remove me as a mod.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That’s not a meltdown. You are in a position of authority in charge of enforcing the rules and openly ignored and decried them. So I raised the concern to the group. In what way is that a “meltdown” and not simply the logical response to an abuse of power?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thank you for making me laugh! Imagine to call refering someone's sex an abuse of power! You guys are truly to used to get all your demands met that can't handle when someone refuse to play along with you. That is the only reason that rule was in place. QT don't have a problem in calling us "cis" (despite we don't like it) or a hate group, so why GC the only side that has to play nice?