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[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think an issue here is the imprecise wording (and sometimes indecipherable spelling) of your posts, which often make it hard to figure out exactly what you are saying and what info you're asking for. Such as this statement of yours a couple of posts up:

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

When you say you've "never seen GC cite any statistics on adolescent desistance," do you mean stats regarding persons who had childhood GD (onset well before puberty) and who desisted during adolescence? Or do you mean persons who developed GD during or just prior to adolescence, and who desisted at a later stage of adolescence?

I believe GC has provided many sources showing that the vast majority of kids with childhood GD desist during the course of adolescence.

But it might be that you and other posters here are using the word "adolescent" to mean different things. Could you say what you mean exactly so to eliminate further confusion?

Finally, is "dibd" a typo or an acronym for some new gender term? Genuine question- it's not clear to me.

You say that

Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest.

Again, please state what you mean by "mid to late teens." There are 7 different, long years between 13 and 19; it's best to be specific.

My impression is that you think adolescence = teens, or is roughly equivalent to the teenage years. When, in fact, adolescence usually starts well before the teen years. Puberty is only precocious if it starts before 8 in girls, and before 9 in boys. Most girls start developing breasts and begin menstruating well before they turn 13, often several years before. Similarly, most boys begin experiencing wet dreams and genital changes and growth, and engage in masturbation resulting in orgasm, well before they turn 13 too.

If my impression that you're conflating being an adolescent with being a teen is incorrect, I apologize ahead of time.

Another issue adding to the confusion here is that is that puberty/adolescence unfolds very differently in children depending on sex - and thus boys and girls of the exact same age are often at very different stages of adolescence. Not only do different processes occur in female and male bodies during puberty and the rest of adolescence , but these phases of development occur at a different pace in the two sexes, and where common events occur - such as the growth spurt that leads to adult height, adult shape and increased bone density - the sequence is different depending on children's sex. For example, girls go through our big skeletal growth spurt at the beginning-middle of puberty and usually achieve our adult height by 14, whereas boys do so towards the end of puberty or even during adolescence after puberty is over, achieving their adult height at or after 16. Though this varies in individuals. For example, I reached my adult height at 12, but my brother didn't reach his until 17.

But however you personally define what you mean when you speak of "the mid-late teens" and "adolescents," it remains the case that your claim that "Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest," is simply not true. Nowadays, and for a number of years now, kids with gender dysphoria are indeed being placed on "hormones" in their early teens, and some before their teens even start.

A paper published in 2019 by Johanna Olson-Kennedy MD et al reported on a study funded by USA's NIH that began in 2016 that attempted to assess the impact of early medical interventions on "transgender youth." It says:

Regarding age, the minimum age in the inclusion criteria for the gender-affirming hormone cohort was decreased from 13 years (as stated in the original grant proposal) to 8 years in order to ensure that potential participants who might be eligible for hormones based on their Tanner stage would not be excluded due to age alone. Additionally, considerations were made for youth who were found to have very low bone density in the screening, which occurs with youths initiating blockers. Only 7 youths under the age of 13 years at the time of enrollment were enrolled into the cross-sex hormone cohort.[ "only 7" - WTF?]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6647755/

Another study published in 2018 by Olson-Kennedy et al of 59 patients who presented for treatment at a youth gender clinic from 2011-13 and received "hormone therapy" states that the youths

ranged in age from 12 to 23 years at initiation of [exogenous estrogen or testosterone] therapy, with a mean age of 18 years. Thirteen (22%) youth started [cross-sex] hormones younger than age 16 years.

Transfeminine youth were started on hormone protocols that usually included a testosterone blocking agent and feminizing medications. Spironolactone (100–200 mg orally per day) or a GnRH analog was used for testosterone blocking and induction of feminizing features with 17 β estradiol, and in some cases, the addition of progesterone. At the time of this study, spironolactone and GnRH analogs were not covered by most insurance plans; therefore, seven (28%) of these youth did not have their endogenous testosterone blocked specifically in the first two years of treatment. One transfeminine young person was on GnRH analogs since early puberty. Eighteen participants used an escalating dose of oral estradiol ranging from 1 to 6 mg each day; four switched to injectable estradiol over the course of treatment, and one was off of hormones at the follow-up visit. Six participants initially started, and continued using injectable estradiol at doses ranging from 20 to 30 mg delivered intramuscularly every 14 days.

Transmasculine youth were all treated with testosterone cypionate via subcutaneous delivery at escalating doses ranging from 12.5 mg to 75 mg weekly. At follow-up, most youth were at a dose of 50–75 mg weekly. Two transmasculine youth were on simultaneous GnRH analogs that were started earlier in adolescence. Doses for both cohorts were adjusted based on clinical response and circulating levels of sex steroids.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7050572/

Jazz Jennings started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen when Jazz was 11. Since Jazz turns 21 in a few days, that was a decade ago.

Jackie Green of the UK, child of Mermaids' CEO Susie Green, started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen at 12. Jackie is now 30, so that was 18 years ago, in 2003.

Helen Webberley the UK physician who operates Gender GP, an unlicensed online clinic, has been prescribing cross-sex hormones to children as young as 12 for at least several years now. This first came out in the investigations in 2018 that followed the suicide of one of Webberley's teenage female patients for whom Webberley prescribed testosterone, and more info about other patients has come out in the formal proceedings against Webberley by medical licensing authorities that have been held over the past couple of months.

Trinity Neal, the first child in the US state of Delaware to undergo "childhood gender transition" paid for by Medicaid, started exogenous estrogen in 2016 when Trinity was 13 and at 16 became "one of the youngest people" to undergo surgery to remove Trinity's testicles and reconfigure Trinity's genitals in "gender affirming" fashion.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/transgender-teen-trinity-neal-pictured-with-her-mother-news-photo/1190172556

Speaking of surgery, an intervention that is not reversible, another study by Olson-Kennedy et al published in 2018 showed that girls in the US as young as 13 are being given double mastectomies for gender dysphoria. In the sample studied, 49% of those who had double mastectomy for GD and "chest dysphoria" were younger than 18 years at the time their breasts were removed.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I’m referring to adolescence in the social sense as in the life stage between childhood and adulthood, not simply the onset of puberty.

I think Jazz was given estrogen too early though I would have supported blockers. But still yet. The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds. It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for answering. But I still am not clear on what you mean. You think adolescence is simply a social stage? Not one when development of myriad kinds occurs - physical, sexual, social, psychological, cognitive?

Also, I wasn't talking about onset of puberty. I was talking about puberty as a multi-year developmental process and pointing out that puberty and adolescence are not the same, nor does adolescence mean the teen years. Whereas in my reading of your posts, you seem to use these terms loosely and interchangeably.

When puberty begins, adolescence begins - but adolescence continues after puberty is finished. Similarly, by the time a person becomes a teenager, puberty is usually well underway and sometimes mostly over - depending on the person's sex and individual developmental clock. My point was that in these convos about boys and girls growing up, the different stages of development and life phases - childhood, puberty, adolescence, teens, early adulthood, adulthood, etc - need to be spoken of very precisely. Whereas no offense, you seem to speak of these matters loosely and in ways that IMO are confusing and hard for others to follow.

The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds.

Can you link to these studies that GC supposedly uses, or at least give the authors' names, so I can look them up? I have no idea what studies you mean - and I'm someone who's definitely GC who's been looking into this area for many years now.

It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

So does this mean your focus really is on, and all along you have been speaking of, persons who develop(ed) GD solely in their teenage years - meaning they have adolescent-onset GD begun after puberty has started, not childhood GD? Coz that's how it comes across, and that's what I've been trying to get you to clarify.

I agree with you 100% that childhood GD is entirely different to adolescent-onset and adult-onset GD. But GC is not the group that's been trying to obscure the distinctions between those with childhood-onset GD and those with GD that develops in adolescence or adulthood. The people who are projecting are the adults, usually males, who say that because they and other adult males who are trans now wish they didn't undergo some of masculinization of appearance that occurs as a result of male puberty and adolescence, then kids with childhood GD should have their puberties blocked so they don't develop those characteristics themselves.

The QT and pro-trans adults are also the ones who have come up with the harmful myth of being "born in the wrong body," a narrative they not only project onto the stories of their own pasts and the pasts of other adults who now identify as trans, but which they foist upon - and tell to - little kids with childhood GD too.

The GC side are the ones who warn against "unsupported comparison(s)" in these convos. Such as the unsupported comparison between adolescent and adult males with AGP and teenage girls with ROGD. And the unsupported comparison between the discrimination and abuse that some males go through growing up and in adulthood because others see them as "sissies" and suspect them of being gay and the discrimination and abuse that females experience because of our sexed bodies and the misogyny and sexism we face. And the unsupported comparison between what happened in the childhoods and adolescence of adults who grew up and matured many years or even decades ago and what's gone on, or is going on, in the childhoods and adolescence of young people today or in recent years.

The child abuse and human rights violations done to youngsters like Jazz Jennings, Trinity Neal, Kai Shappley, Mack Beggs and all the young girls getting their breasts amputated in the name of "gender affirmation" nowadays haven't come about because of GC people projecting our issues onto kids, or us making unsupported comparisons. It's because adult genderists have done and are doing that.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So does this mean your focus really is on, and all along you have been speaking of, persons who develop(ed) GD solely in their teenage years - meaning they have adolescent-onset GD begun after puberty has started, not childhood GD? Coz that's how it comes across, and that's what I've been trying to get you to clarify.

It doesn’t matter. As I’ve said I’m speaking about people expressing trans identities in adolescence, regardless of onset. That’s who would be getting lasting treatment so that’s the relevant question. How many children desist is irrelevant because we aren’t talking about children, we are talking about people in their mid to late teens.

The child abuse false allegations have started so I won’t be responding further. Good evening.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It doesn’t matter. As I’ve said I’m speaking about people expressing trans identities in adolescence, regardless of onset.

But of course it matters! Not all "gender dysphoria" is of the same nature, nor does it have the same cause. GD of childhood onset is very different to GD of adolescent and adult onset. Both within each sex, and between the two sexes.

A same sex-attracted male of 16 who developed childhood GD because the adults in his life shamed and punished him for liking "the wrong toys" and for being what they considered "girly" or not sufficiently manly is entirely different to an opposite sex-attracted male of the same age who developed GD because when he was 11-12 he started borrowing the undies or intimate items belonging to his mum, sister or gran to masturbate in/with, and after finding he really got off on it developed AGP. And GD in each of them in turn is different to the GD of an awkward autistic boy of the same age who hasn't figured out his sexuality yet but in the past year has been groomed into wanting to be/thinking he's a girl by adult predators who search the internet looking for "eggs."

Saying "it doesn't matter" that what's going on with these different groups of young people is not at all the same and treating them as one undifferentiated mass is doing them great harm.

Moreover, GD in females is entirely different to GD in males. A 15 year-old female who developed adolsecent-onset GD because of sexism and internalized misogyny will have little to nothing in common with a male of the exact same age, class, locale, etc who developed adolescent-onset GD because he has an adolescent male libido and has been steeped in sissy porn.

As for people "expressing trans identities in adolescence" - that's a far, far bigger group than kids with childhood-onset and adolescent-onset combined.

Please explain how the medical interventions and cruel lies that gender ideology advocates insist minors be subjected to in pursuit of "early gender transition" doesn't amount to child abuse.