All: How have your beliefs evolved?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

Less of a debate prompt and more of a discussion prompt, so I hope that's okay.

GC: We often hear about gender critical people or radical feminists originally being pro-trans before "peaking" and becoming gender critical, is this true of you? Have your beliefs or opinions evolved in other ways?

QT/pro-trans: I assume none of you were "gender critical" in the past, but have your beliefs or opinions concerning the topics we discuss here evolved in other ways?

Lastly, I'm really interested to hear about the progression of beliefs of the gender critical trans users we have here, if you feel like sharing.

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I used to be pro trans, and am now gc

Obviously my views changed from tra to gc lol, but I’ve definitely become more GC over time, if that makes sense.

I used to think GC, but still try to compromise and be accommodating. I think over time I’ve come to understand that there’s really no reason for me to compromise or try to be accommodating. And I think I’ve stopped separating TW from other men. I used to just subconsciously split them apart. I wouldn’t group TW and women together, but I still had this habit of separating TW from other men, like my brain still told myself that just because they aren’t women, doesn’t mean they’re “the same” as men, and now I’ve accepted that there is no real significant differences between TW and other males.

Idk if that answers your question lol, I just feel like over time, I’m being deprogrammed. Like I feel like I was in a cult or a mentally:emotionally abusive relationship but Im out and I look back and see all of the red flags and abuse and can’t believe that they used to be my life

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It definitely answers it and I think we had similar trajectories. In a lot of ways it's being deprogrammed not only from the cult but also female socialization which tells you to be nice and accommodating.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

I was a transmedicalist heavily sympathetic to gc but my time interacting with the Reddit group and here have shown me that it appears most of the gc crowd just legitimately dislike trans people and there’s probably no middle ground or progress to be made through talking to y’all. So I went from hopeful to hopeless I guess?

Edit: The main reasons are how many are arguing against a hard or soft ban on medical transition, arguing against protective necessities like I’d changes and formal protections, calling us worse than “other men”, the constant insults about our appearances, maintaining that we somehow have a social or economic advantage when we so clearly do not, and the refusal to acknowledge or failure to appreciate the danger posed to us by men. Basically I’ve just seen so much hateful or indifferent to hate to us that I honestly don’t think there is progress to be made with most of you.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Basically I’ve just seen so much hateful or indifferent to hate to us that I honestly don’t think there is progress to be made with most of you.

I feel the same way, tbh. I used to think we could work together but have seen too many transwomen openly fantasize about raping or murdering me, my sister, or other "TERFs" to the point where I don't think it's possible.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I mean, even ignoring those cases (not that progressive ideologies forcing us to pretend that typical violent misogynistic men are women is just something to ignore), I realised that even the best, most seemingly understanding trans people still eventually reach a point where they must argue in favour of misogynistic ideas for the sake of gender validation, whether that be the usual justifications for the patriarchy, or brainsex, or "passing" defining women, plastic surgeries and artificial hormonal imbalance being in any way comparable to actually being female, claiming womanhood on the basis of an outsider's wishful thinking vs actually being a woman, the "words are meaningless and women can't be defined" nonsense etc. It is simply a reality that the goals of women and trans people are directly opposed to each other. For women, they need to shed their artificial patriarchal baggage and accept only the physical reality of their female bodies. For trans people, accepting their body is not an option, but without said patriarchal baggage, there is literally nothing making them different from anyone else of the same sex.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Why do you think other trans women like peaking and Fleurista can find common ground with us, but you feel like the situation is hopeless?

It's a tough situation. I really don't think most GC women are bigots, although I will admit I have seen negative attitudes towards trans women, much more common on Ovarit than here. I think some of us get so frustrated with the situation that anger is being taken out on trans people in unproductive ways.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Peaking passes. I don’t know about Fleurista but I would assume the same. The difference in the life of a stealth trans woman and one who can’t pass is a big gap. The need for protections is a lot clearer to people in my position I suppose.

Even leaving aside the constant insults I get, with assertions I have x y z mental disorder and am a raging misigynist worse than “other men”, There’s no common ground that can be found when so many of you are arguing for transition to be inaccessible and pushing policies that would basically remove people like me from society. Surely that’s understandable.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Fair point. Fleurista has a YouTube channel by the way, in case you wanted to check her out.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJtylj7hCourJmYC1eFE1g/videos

The difference in the life of a stealth trans woman and one who can’t pass is a big gap. The need for protections is a lot clearer to people in my position I suppose.

But don't you think passing trans women are in favor of protections? Clearly, they would need a protected space in many cases, too. And GC isn't against protected spaces. I know you and I have talked about that before, and you're in favor of dedicated gender-neutral restrooms and locker rooms for people who either don't pass or don't feel comfortable with others of their natal sex.

Even leaving aside the constant insults I get, with assertions I have x y z mental disorder and am a raging misigynist worse than “other men”

I don't think anyone should be insulting you. You've always been very polite. I've never seen you be rude to someone in an interaction. You do have a very negative attitude towards men, but I'm not sure how that means you're a "raging misogynist." Anyway, I haven't seen that from you. Someone actually said you were worse than other natal males?

There’s no common ground that can be found when so many of you are arguing for transition to be inaccessible and pushing policies that would basically remove people like me from society. Surely that’s understandable.

No one wants you removed from society, though. What GC beliefs would prevent you from getting a job, buying a house, voting, marrying, raising kids, etc.? You should be able to live your life just like any other citizen. If we don't believe that you've literally changed sexes (which I don't think you believe either?) it shouldn't affect your ability to go about your daily life like any other person, male or female.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I assume they aren’t against them but they need them less and see the need for them less so surely they are at least less stridently for them.

And GC isn't against protected spaces.

But also not doing anything for them. Since they don’t exist and trans people can’t make them it’s at best a hypothetical solution or at worst a smokescreen depending on the one speaking. Without concentrated action from non trans people such spaces won’t happen. I do believe dedicated single occupancy neutral spaces is the best solution but only action by non trans people can make that happen.

The “worse than other males” has been directed at all trans women not me specifically but I’ve seen a couple of people say such here.

Removal from society is the outgrowth or what you are espousing. Take bathrooms, without access to safe facilities we lose the ability to participate in many facets of public lfe. The net effect of banning us from women’s facilities and not building new ones is essentially a ban from us participating in large sections of public life.

Or the fact that many of you object to dedicated trans protections ( instead saying it should just be for gnc people broadly) which would leave a gap to be exploited by those seeking to discriminate against us.

Categorization of transition as cosmetic as I have seen pushed for not only renders passing an impossibility but essentially deprives all but extremely wealthy trans people necessary medical care for their mental well being.

Whether or not you purposefully and specifically wish harm to us doesn’t preclude harm from the outgrowth of the policies gc sometimes pushes.

Not to mention we can be denied housing for being trans, voter id laws combined with trans people being unable to update id as many of you push for makes that uniquely dangerous and embarrassing, marrying is made far less likely without timely and affordable transition, It’s been directly argued on the old Reddit board that we should be banned from adopting as mentally unfit and combined with transition induced infertility would make raising children. Impossible for many of us. Your (gc not necessarily specially you) policies left to course at least complicates our ability to do those things.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

But also not doing anything for them.

Well, I suppose they just feel it's not their fight. Few people in society are actual activists, and radical feminists focus their time and energy and money on issues that affect natal women. But I'm sure most GC people would vote in favor of a law mandating protected spaces that don't conflict with what they see as sex-based protections.

Since they don’t exist and trans people can’t make them it’s at best a hypothetical solution

Trans people could actually make them happen. They have a huge political lobby at the moment. If the LGBT community threw their collective weight towards things like protected prison wings and gender-neutral restrooms, they could absolutely create laws that would mandate them. The LGB has power they can use to help the T. And plenty of non-trans people would vote in favor.

The “worse than other males” has been directed at all trans women not me specifically but I’ve seen a couple of people say such here.

I wonder what their reasoning is. Some natal males are terrible, no doubt, but I don't see how any trans woman could be worse than others. There are plenty of male-identifying men who are straight out of a horror movie, killers, rapists, and God knows what else.

Removal from society is the outgrowth or what you are espousing. Take bathrooms, without access to safe facilities we lose the ability to participate in many facets of public lfe. The net effect of banning us from women’s facilities and not building new ones is essentially a ban from us participating in large sections of public life.

But passing transsexual women have always had access to female bathrooms. There's no lock on the door. As you say, if you're not passing and not comfortable using either men's or women's restrooms, then how does this affect you? Despite self-ID laws, you're still in the same boat. Unless we have dedicated third spaces, then someone on one side or the other is going to be uncomfortable.

Or the fact that many of you object to dedicated trans protections ( instead saying it should just be for gnc people broadly) which would leave a gap to be exploited by those seeking to discriminate against us.

I say just make a blanket protection for "gender presentation." That protects you and it protects me.

Not to mention we can be denied housing for being trans, voter id laws combined with trans people being unable to update id as many of you push for makes that uniquely dangerous and embarrassing, marrying is made far less likely without timely and affordable transition, It’s been directly argued on the old Reddit board that we should be banned from adopting as mentally unfit and combined with transition induced infertility would make raising children. Impossible for many of us. Your (gc not necessarily specially you) policies left to course at least complicates our ability to do those things.

I would strongly oppose any GC person who tried to stop people from adopting based on trans status. Having the right to found a family is extremely important for all people. That's why I get so distressed when I hear about doctors destroying children's fertility. Even if they do grow up to identify as trans, they deserve to have the choice to have biological kids if they want them. Marriage laws already protect both same and opposite sex couples. And of course housing discrimination and voting discrimination should not exist.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Well, I suppose they just feel it's not their fight.

It’s an action/inaction thing I suppose. Consider the trolly problem. Trans women are the ones on the second track, the act of banning us from those spaces is pulling the lever so the trolly hits us. Encouraging the ban without an adequate safeguard is an action doing us harm; whether you think that makes it blameworthy is a whole ethical debate.

Trans people could actually make them happen. They have a huge political lobby at the moment. If the LGBT community threw their collective weight towards things like protected prison wings and gender-neutral restrooms, they could absolutely create laws that would mandate them. The LGB has power they can use to help the T. And plenty of non-trans people would vote in favor.

Lgb people could maybe. Trans people can’t. You all really underestimate our level or influence. Look at employment protections, basically universally pushed for and advocated for by trans people for decades and it still only happened judicially rather than something more secure in a statute. Let alone getting something that would cost so much money as a mandated facility change.

I wonder what their reasoning is. Some natal males are terrible, no doubt, but I don't see how any trans woman could be worse than others. There are plenty of male-identifying men who are straight out of a horror movie, killers, rapists, and God knows what else.

I honestly just think some here simply hate trans women. It’s not a logical thing necessarily.

But passing transsexual women have always had access to female bathrooms. There's no lock on the door. As you say, if you're not passing and not comfortable using either men's or women's restrooms, then how does this affect you? Despite self-ID laws, you're still in the same boat. Unless we have dedicated third spaces, then someone on one side or the other is going to be uncomfortable.

I use women’s rooms if no neutral facilities are available which is usually the case. A ban would force me to only go places that have a neutral restroom which are rare in this part of the country.

I say just make a blanket protection for "gender presentation." That protects you and it protects me.

Because it doesn’t protect me. All they need say is they are acting in that fashion not because I am dressed but because I am trans. If they claim that they wouldn’t ban a cis man who looked and dressed like me they could argue it isn’t about presentation but an unprotected belief or even unprotected mental condition (gender dysphoria being excluded specifically from the ADA)

I would strongly oppose any GC person who tried to stop people from adopting based on trans status.

Fair enough but some gc people would disagree with you there.

And of course housing discrimination and voting discrimination should not exist.

But they do and trans people aren’t protected. Part of what if changes do is help prevent those for the lucky that pass. And We still don’t have legal protections for them.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I don't even think trans women should be "banned" from bathrooms. It would be a hard if not impossible thing to enforce, for starters. But there needs to be some safeguarding.

Trans people have gained enormous political power. If their lobby can pass laws allowing natal males in female prisons and female sports, they could damn sure bring about gender-neutral restrooms or protected prison wings. The White House even changed Title IX to respect gender identity instead of biological sex. If that's not power, I don't know what is.

I honestly just think some here simply hate trans women. It’s not a logical thing necessarily.

I won't ask you to name names, but I sincerely hope that's not the case. And just so you know, I'm worried for you. I know you mentioned you only participate here when you're not doing well mentally. I feel like you express a lot of self-hatred towards yourself as a non-passing trans woman. But many if not most trans women are in that same boat. Your life can still have value and meaning even if you don't look like how society expects.

I use women’s rooms if no neutral facilities are available which is usually the case. A ban would force me to only go places that have a neutral restroom which are rare in this part of the country.

They should be more common, but regardless, I really don't think bans are coming any time soon. GC really has bigger fish to fry at this point. I know you're afraid of men and don't want to be in with them. That's understandable if you've faced violence in the past. I don't want to force you into a men's room either.

All they need say is they are acting in that fashion not because I am dressed but because I am trans.

I disagree, though. What would be their rationale? What they really have a problem with is non-conforming appearance, not how you perceive yourself in your own head. A heterosexual transvestite like theory or a GNC woman like me would not be any more protected against people who dislike how we present ourselves.

But they do and trans people aren’t protected. Part of what if changes do is help prevent those for the lucky that pass. And We still don’t have legal protections for them.

As far as I know, gay people also don't have federal legal protections for sexual orientation either in terms of housing and employment discrimination. They got same-sex marriages, but the other stuff got left behind. It seems to me this would be a fruitful endeavor and a higher priority than some of the things they're currently doing. As far as voting, though, trans people can vote. And the vast majority of radical feminists are not in favor of voter ID.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Trans people have gained enormous political power. If their lobby can pass laws allowing natal males in female prisons and female sports, they could damn sure bring about gender-neutral restrooms or protected prison wings.

Neither of those cost money and are far from universal. For instance if I were arrested today, despite being post op I would be put in men’s Jail and eventually men’s prison in this state.

Your life can still have value and meaning even if you don't look like how society expects.

Thank you. I’m not suicidal, I also don’t think my life has value or meaning but I’m not planning on ending it.

I disagree, though. What would be their rationale?

Because it’s pretense. It doesn’t matter if that’s really the case or not. It’s the same thing as “sincere religious belief” justifying gay discrimination over protections for gay people. If you leave a loophole, bigots will use it.

As far as I know, gay people also don't have federal legal protections for sexual orientation either in terms of housing and employment discrimination.

They don’t but should.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Neither of those cost money and are far from universal.

Yeah, but it shows their ability to get things done. It could happen, if they put the same effort into those things as they do with their current endeavors. And I certainly don't believe trans women should be in the general male prison population. They obviously need a protected space. But throwing them in with natal women isn't the answer. You may not be a danger, but there are some very serious criminals who are.

Thank you. I’m not suicidal, I also don’t think my life has value or meaning but I’m not planning on ending it.

Do you think there's anything at all that could change your mindset? I've struggled with despair at times as well. Maybe not as seriously as you have, I don't know, but I feel like there's got to be a way for you to see the value in yourself. A lot of people find that through relationships and friendships. Or even religion or spirituality can help some people.

I'm visibly GNC too, and I understand it's not the same for me as a natal woman, but I know what it feels like to get stared at or called slurs. I just think people who have a problem with me, it's their problem, not mine. If they're bigoted because of the way I look, it doesn't affect my value. If anything, it's their reputation that takes a hit. It shows how petty or nasty or brainwashed they are.

If you leave a loophole, bigots will use it.

I guess I just don't see it. The people who are upset by gender nonconformity usually base that on religion. Those bigots are not going to be any friendlier towards people like me or theory than they are towards you. If they wouldn't have a reason to fire us, they wouldn't have a reason to fire you. If they can't base it on gender presentation, then they have no legitimate reason. It's wrongful termination.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As far as I know, gay people also don't have federal legal protections for sexual orientation either in terms of housing and employment discrimination. They got same-sex marriages, but the other stuff got left behind. It seems to me this would be a fruitful endeavor and a higher priority than some of the things they're currently doing.

Some history on what happened with the US federal law known as ENDA: https://www.salon.com/2007/10/08/lgbt/

the vast majority of radical feminists are not in favor of voter ID.

Really? This is news to me. I now live in a state where voters have to show ID & don't know anyone of any political persuasion against the practice. I used to live in state where there was no voter ID, & the polling places were run by people & procedures so lackadaisical there was lots of room for fraud. Can you provide some evidence that "the vast majority of radical feminists" are against voter ID, please?

I understand that many might be against specific laws & movements that use voter ID as a ploy & cover for the real aim disenfranchising certain groups. I am against that too. But that's very different to being against voter ID altogether.

I've long supported organizations & efforts whose aim is to help citizens & residents of the US without IDs obtain them so that citizens can exercise their right to vote; citizens (& residents where applicable) can access important services like Medicare, SS, public education & other state, federal & local benefits; & so citizens & residents, even ones in the US illegally, can have full freedom of movement that includes operating a motor vehicle & flying on a commercial airplane.

Using today's technology & means of outreach that are not just possible but practical, there's no reason for anyone in the US who wants a government-approved ID to be without one. The entire set-up for taking ID photos, printing IDs & laminating them could fit in a briefcase.

There's no reason nowadays to make poor people travel to DMVs when it's easy to go where people who need IDs live & issue them IDs on their doorsteps, or at the local PO, school, grocery store, gas station, senior center, etc. (I've been advocating that booths for issuing IDs be set up wherever people to go to get COVID vaccines, in fact.)Similarly, it's not hard to train outreach workers how to help people without certified copies of their birth certificates or SS cards to obtain them.

https://www.voteriders.org/

https://www.spreadthevote.org/

https://www.demos.org/research/got-id-helping-americans-get-voter-identification

I think supporting such efforts is a better use of my time, money & energy than pretending that in 2021 it's wholly unreasonable to expect people to have photo IDs. I'm surprised to find that some would say this means I'm not a feminist.

Also, I've noticed that many of the same people who vociferously oppose the practice of having to present an ID in order to vote in the US are also advocating for US citizens & residents to be forced to provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination in order to go out for a meal, attend school, enter a grocery store, go to Walmart or attend a sporting event, concert or showing of a film in a theater. Seems oddly inconsistent & more than a tad hypocritical to me. (BTW, for various reasons, I am against having to provide proof of vaccine to access most public places within the US, but have no problem with such being required for international travel. If COVID-19 were a predominantly pediatric disease affecting & putting the lives of children at risk like polio, MMR & mumps, or a teenage/young adult disease like bacterial meningitis, I'd have a different view about schools.)

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the background on ENDA.

Fair enough, there's been so much Democratic handwringing over voter ID that I figured most leftists were against it because of charges that it disenfranchises poor people of color. I shouldn't assume that's the same view of all radical feminists.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ironically, I would probably just keep using passing privilege without a care if it weren't for gender critical and radical feminist beliefs leading me to believe that it's wrong to occupy female spaces like that. Maybe GC can help passing transwomen be better advocates for actual trans rights, or at least more active, as strange as that may sound!

Do you still see yourself as transmedicalist? I enjoyed interacting with transmed and truscum communities until it became clear that many if not most of the people I was speaking with believed that transition is the cure to gender dysphoria and therefore no research into preventative medicine or therapies or anything that did not require lifelong medical treatment and social adjustments is necessary. That seems like a key difference between QT/trans and GC beliefs is that GC believes transition is mostly harmful and something to work towards doing away with. That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

It's rough since we're trying to just have normal lives, but we're enabling a deeply problematic system by transitioning as GC people view it and I would have to agree. There are certainly GC people who aren't very understanding and extend no sympathy for trans people or anyone experiencing gender dysphoria, and that doesn't seem very progressive whatsoever. On the other hand, I can see where we are so wrapped up in our own troubles that we develop tunnel vision and can't see a larger problem.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you think trans women who might not pass, like Miranda Yardley, are able to see things from a gender critical perspective? Or get on with the GC crowd?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

It used to be hard for me to judge people who want to "pass" for doing so when we live in a crappy sexist society that does judge you a lot based on your sex (leading also to laws that further have to enforce gendered spaces so women could have a semblance of a normal life in public). On the other hand, I also hate the idea that people are born in the wrong body and need plastic surgeries if these unfair norms cause them anxiety. It's one of those things that I "understood" as much as I understood gender-conforming women as long as they understood that what they're doing is counter-productive to feminist goals.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you still see yourself as transmedicalist?

Yes.

That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

To me transition is an acceptable if unfortunate outcome. I don’t want anyone to transition who doesn’t need to but transition isn’t harmful to those who need it. I suppose to be being a natal woman would be better but I just can’t see “becoming a cis man” as a successful outcome. Turning a trans woman into a cis man seems like a loss to me. But I also want enough safeguards that only those who need to are transitioning. Having a cis man transition wrongly also feels like a loss. I don’t honestly know how I feel about trans men. Wanting to be masculine or wanting to be a man is so wildly foreign to me I just try not to judge them and be supportive.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you think trans women who might not pass, like Miranda Yardley, are able to see things from a gender critical perspective? Or get on with the GC crowd?

Honestly I assume you either deep self hatred or some kind of pathological need to please. I really try not to ascribe that to people but I can’t fathom another reason someone could campaign against their own interests and ability to live.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But also not doing anything for them.

Why should GC do anything about? It's trans identified males who don't want to share spaces with men, you're the ones who should be advocating for third spaces. And don't give me the ridiculous excuse that no one cares about what trans identified people wants. The trans lobby has been changing laws and policies behind everyone's back to make self-ID a thing. In some countries, "gender identity" is already enshrined in law. There is a middle aged man that will be competing against women in a Olympics's weightlifting event, and he is far from being the only male competing in the female categories of several sports. You have a good bunc of the Media supporting your causes and using prefered prounouns and other "inclusive language". Even news sources who publish articles against transgenderism often use "prefered pronouns". To say nothing of the support from Big Tech companies like Google, Reddit, Twitter, etcetera. Many scientis and health care professionals are bending backwards to entertain absurd ideas like sex is a spectrum or that you can change sex. But you can't have third spaces? Give me a break!

If you have a problem with the status quo, you should complain with the trans activists who are doing nothing to make trans spaces a possibility. Of course, it will be useless as they don't wan't third spaces. No, they want the women's spaces. If it were merely a matter of safety, third spaces should suffice. However, third spaces won't provide the "validation" and the access to vunlnerable victims that many trans identified males actually want.

Why should women do anything for you when it's obvious you don't give a f*** about women and that you only see us as human shields?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's trans identified males who don't want to share spaces with men, you're the ones who should be advocating for third spaces. And don't give me the ridiculous excuse that no one cares about what trans identified people wants.

We’ve had this conversation. Why ask and then tell me not to answer? If you just want to rant and not actually have a conversation there’s gc main.

If you have a problem with the status quo, you should complain with the trans activists who are doing nothing to make trans spaces a possibility.

You are the ones arguing for change. The stausbquo is us having access to necessary facilities. You are arguing to have us banned from them. And without accompanying safety changes. That’s my point.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We’ve had this conversation. Why ask and then tell me not to answer?

Yes, we have had this conversation before and I find your claims of nobody listening to trans identified people unconvincing. So, if trans identified people are so marginalized as you said, explain to me how have they acomplished all the things I listed and more, and in such a short time.

If you just want to rant and not actually have a conversation there’s gc main.

Says the person who is contantly ranting in this sub.

You are the ones arguing for change. The stausbquo is us having access to necessary facilities. You are arguing to have us banned from them. And without accompanying safety changes. That’s my point.

You are NOT entintled to use women's spaces just because you want to. Trans identified males are using them because they don't give a dam about ignoring women's boundaries and have bully society to accept all your demands without questioning. You cry about being in danger in men's spaces, but trans identified males don't give a dam about any harm a woman may suffer as consequense of males entering formerly single-sex spaces like bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, prisons, etcetera. And there is no lack of examples of women being hurt because of this. So, again, don't dodge the question and tell me why should we care about you when you obviously don't care about us? You only view us as human shields and necessary collateral damage to get what you want, and then get mad when women are not rushing to do whatever you want?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We haven’t accomplished anything. Lgbt people together have done it for us, not us alone. You also wildly overestimate the protections in place for most trans people. Cherry-picking from the few places with right s doesn’t demonstrate some kind of dominating trans cabal.

Again you are the one arguing for a change from status quo. How can you argue that you are morally justified by arguing for a change that will absolutely harm trans women without doing something to mitigate that harm. You are the one arguing for something to change.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Considering circling's baseless acussations, circling putting words in our mouth and circling calling a fellow user a monster... I'll disagree over circling being polite. All those acussations are in circling's head, both because of circling's self-hate issues and the fact that circling equals disagreeement with bigotry. The most ridiculous part of this is that circling is the one who often claims trans identified people are unlovable freaks or something like that.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I haven't followed the threads that closely, so I missed the "monster" exchange. Maybe you could link it?

circling is the one who often claims trans identified people are unlovable freaks or something like that.

This is obviously the result of low self esteem. I just feel bad this is circling's opinion of herself and seemingly other trans people.

circling equals disagreeement with bigotry.

Well, I don't know. She could probably clarify, but I haven't experienced that in our interactions.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Here is the thread.

I agree that circling's opinion on trans identified people comes from self-hate, but circling proyects those opinions on everyone else. So, anyone don't recognizing circling's identitiy feels like a personal attack for circling. And because circling hates men, being viewed as one feels like being considered a monster even though for most people man is a neutral word. And of course, not doing anything to build third spaces -which most trans identified people don't want in the first place- is another sign of bigotry because we're not thinking in male violence on men's spaces. Honestly, I'm tired of circling and other people thinking we should care about trans identified males when they don't care in the slightest about any harm a woman may suffer because of making any women's space effectively unisex.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for that. Yeah, circling's hatred of men rivals anything I've seen from so-called feminist "man haters."

I get where you're coming from.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I first heard of transgender and trans as being separate from transsexuals who have surgery, I did not understand it at all and could not figure out why they called themselves what their mind thought they were and not what their body was. I thought a 'trans woman' would have to be a female thinking they are a male, not the other way around. I didn't understand how the brain overruled the body on what is a word describing body types and reproductive function.

Then as I heard the term more and even met a few, the idea settled in but I did not understand it. Eventually I was fed the lie that there was some science that said they were actually women in spite of their anatomy. I accepted it face value, just as I accepted at face value that due to this "science" they were a kind of woman.

I knew a woman who raised the matter in conversation with me, and I had nothing really to offer. I knew nothing, but shared the BS that I had heard, that some cite some kind of science. She talked about how in Iran the declare gay men trans and perform surgery on them, so the matter has at least something to do with homophobia and stereotypes. She was far more knowledgeable about that I so I could only nod along and say it's interesting but had nothing to add. She had it all reasoned out, but I don't know if she had all the information she might have now (It's been a while since we spoke, just not traveling in the same circles anymore)

Some time after that, when the goal post moved and we were expected to say they WERE women, as if there was no difference and no distinction, I had to ask what about actual women? The matter frustrated me. I looked into it more, found the so-called science was just bad and illogical. The research was bad, but the conclusions and the reasoning was unacceptably bad. But I had a hard time speaking about it. I am in the arts, and virtually everyone in the arts seem to have agressively fought to get on that sinking ship called the SS Trans-Alliy. Then I found GC-Saint Berns and it all feel into place.

The more I hear and see from the tras, the worse and worse their arguments are and the worse and worse their behavior gets. It is a mental illness, at best. It is an aggressive way to dominate and intimidate women too often. At worst it will be an end to women's right to organize for themselves and part of the end of critical thinking in modern civilization. If anything exposes the myth of progress it is this.

And QT: what a load of sophistic crap! Too many people, too few real jobs doing things, too many degrees in fields that should not exist, too many literal idiots with too much time on their hands and not enough logic in their heads with PhDs in nonsense. I don't believe in witch burning, but I'd turn the other way for Judith Butler who apparently has changed her out-of-tune tune as her audience grew.

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Used to be QT but I didn't really think about it, I just accepted everything they said. They have a dangerous way of gaslighting people. Even when I felt something was off I ignored my gut feeling because I thought I was the one in the wrong. But eventually I realized my instincts were right all along, its QT who is insane. I'm lucky tho because I was never super deep into QT, so getting out wasn't that difficult for me.

I flirted with GC for a bit, and while I agree with them on many things, but I wouldn't call myself GC.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I never was a believer in "gender identity" or in "true trans". To me it was (and still is) very simple: men are not women. It's has never been a judgment, but a matter of fact, just like the Earth is round and the sky is blue. To claim that some men are actually women or can become women was always absurd to me. Also, I never felt particularly "feminine", so I found offensive that some men said they are women or like women because they were "effeminate". If they were women, then what was I?

Nevertheless, this was not a subject that I cared or payed attention that much. Despite that I thought certain annoying comments by some men who thought they were more "women-like" than actual women, I didn't think this could affect me in anyway. I mean, at the end of the day everyone knew that transvestites (*) were just very effeminate gay men, right?

Yeah, I eventually learned that was not the case and there were at least a few people who thought men can be women, but I ignored them. It was a fringed minority, I thought, and "trans issues" was still not a topic I was particularly interested in. However, I keep hearing more about this, and people were deadly serious when discussing this stuff. Soon it hard to ignore, especially in fandom spaces, that there was an increasing number of people defending this concept. The argument around if trans identified males should use women's bathrooms was so absurd that I'd thought it was a joke (obviously, if any man can enter, then predators are going to take full advantage of it) if not were because people were being deadly serious about this. Things like "non-binaries" seemed a joke, except people were not treating it as such. The arguments about how trans identified people didn't need to disclose their sex to potential partners sounded outright disturbing to me. Also, I started hearing about "cis" and immediately reject the concept. Like, c’mon, I’m not “cis”, I’m not feel “feminine” or whatever.

I'm prone to overthink things, and hearing all this stuff made me start analyzing the issue seriously (still wasn't researching this, mind you). In the end, I could only conclude that all of this "gender identity" was very regressive. People were claiming they were fighting against sex stereotypes, however, all evidence told me they were actually enforcing stereotypes. After all, if you cannot define what a woman and man are based on biology, how else can you define them? If things kept going this way, I could imagine a faraway future where I would be called "non-binary" or another made-up "gender" because I was neither “masculine” nor "feminine". And this lead me to the most maddening question: why were I only hearing socially conservative people speaking out against this stuff? I could not be the only person who saw how regressive all of this was, yet I barely saw anyone who share my concerns.

March 2020 came and the world was upside-down: there was a pandemic, the virus has arrived in my country and soon the lockdown would start soon just a few months after the government changed, the economy was already shit like usual, and here there was also an epidemic of dengue and measles. Everyone was freaking out, but I had an additional reason to think the world had gone mad as now "trans identified males" were celebrated on International Women’s Day and I was seeing graffiti saying there were girls with penises and boys with vulvas. Admittedly, I was getting angry every time I heard about trans issues by then. I’ve grew up reading the Harry Potter books and I’d heard about how JKR was recently deemed "transphobic" over a tweet saying sex was real or something like, but I didn't read further into it (I'm not on Twitter).

By this time, however, I did an internet search looking for criticism of sex positivism that didn't came from a religious point of view. And so I found a radical feminist website and there in the sidebar there was some recommended articles about transgenderism. I decided to check this too. Maybe these women could see the same than I was seeing? I wasn't planning to read more than that, however, once I started reading I could not leave the subject and started looking on another sites too. I spent the following days doing a crash-course on transgenderism. Soon enough, I'd learned about things like the cotton ceiling (WTF?!), the threats by transactivists (well, they certainly don’t look vulnerable wielding those bats), AGP (this is a fetish?!), de-transitioners (wait, this is a thing?), chest-binders (how is this legal?) minors being "transed" (WTF?!) and more. While everyone was more worried by COVID, but I was getting more and more alarmed about what I was reading. It seemed the "far future" that I feared it was coming already and it was much worse than I could have ever imagined.

On June 2020, of course I saw people were crying about how "transphobic" JKR were and how she should shut up, and how what she wrote was so "hateful" that it should not be read. So, without wasting any second, I did exactly the opposite. After reading her tweets and her essay, I was filled with awe by every single word she said and the way she had kept her position in spite of all the abuse. However, seeing all those death and rape threats being so easily condoned was infuriating. What have happened to all those who spoked out during #MeToo? Was it all for show?

Finding articles that weren't condemning JKR for the crime of saying that sex does matter was proving to be a hard task. Because I'd read that Google’s search results may be biased, I decided to do an experiment. I opened several search engines alongside Google and I did the same searches about this issue in all of them. Every single one of them gave me more balanced results than Google. I switched to DuckDuckGo that day.

Seeing more and more people who were done with this stuff was encouraging, though. I started lurking the GC sub on Reddit, and I saw how the subscribers were quickly increasing... until they got banned. Fortunately, the night before the banning someone mentioned saidit, so it was easy to find this place. Some weeks after, I stopped lurking and started commenting in the new GC sub because I needed to talk about this stuff. Finally, I started participating in this sub, too.

I had done a lot of reading on trans issues since March last year and I can say I’m very firm in the GC side. I found QT arguments unconvincing and incongruous, their tactics deplorable, and their goals are not something I'd approve of.

(*) Transvestite was the word used back then where I live. In fact, it is still in used around here. And, yes, I thought they were all effeminate gay men because that was what I associated transvestites with.

Sorry for the novel, I swear this comment was going to be much shorter!

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've often been in abusive relationships and scenarios I didn't realize were such at the time, only discovering just how bad those people and situations were after getting away--that's my experience with and how I feel about the trans community and trans-affirmative spaces. My feelings are strongly tied with my own experiences with these people, and since they were exploitative and inappropriate with me, I'm wary of pro-trans organizations, groups and people. Looking back, 'trans' for them was almost just a pretext to perv on people. For the longest time, I thought I was just being judgmental and cruel for being scared of transwomen, but I've come to see I'm not the only one with these kinds of experiences and that it's not just in my head.

I feel really used and taken advantage of by many of the adults in my life and by people claiming to care and that they can be trusted, so I've really grown to distrust any of the pro-trans banter or people. I feel bad still for unassuming children and adults caught up in everything, I worry about them being exploited, having their lives permanently altered, and being used by sick people for their own pleasure.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm sorry you've been in so many of those situations before. Why do you think that specific sort of abusive environment is so common in trans spaces?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think because AGP isn't better recognized and acknowledged, honestly. If it were, I would think more adults and professionals who aren't trans would step in and make sure those sorts of problems weren't so commonplace. And I don't think it's inherently AGP that's the cause of problems so much as the assumption that there is no problem, letting bad behavior continue on, and reinforcing that behavior as acceptable to those who act out their fetish, paraphilias and misogyny on others.

Also, I sort of see a prevailing attitude that older trans people helping younger trans people is on par with professional care, so trans children and young trans people are sort of turned over to the generally older trans people who are expected to run these sorts of organizations and spaces and help these younger trans people. It seems like a great solution, like a mentorship, but those are positions of power that aren't really being regarded as such. So, to paint a picture, you have some adults with some severe mental health and personality issues, including paraphilias, being given positions of leadership and trust over more vulnerable trans people.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I wasn't really aware of transgender issues prior to 2015, even though I had considered whether I was trans myself back around age 13. At that time, transgender still meant being a "born in the wrong body" transsexual, so I figured I couldn't be that. But my confusion over gender didn't end, and when the "trans boom" started with Caitlyn Jenner, I kind of got sucked into things a little bit. I started lurking on trans subs and went around on Reddit trying to find a label, even going so far as to adopt "genderqueer-ish" for a while, but I could never make myself fully believe it.

When I saw Caitlyn Jenner's television interview, I was sympathetic. I remember being supportive of trans people in general, understanding that it was rare and people suffered from crippling dysphoria and that medical treatment only happened for those for whom it was a last resort. That was my understanding of the situation. Even when I heard about Jazz Jennings and other trans kids, I thought "well, it's extremely rare, and the doctors must know what they are doing." I thought surely the children were heavily screened and treated with other rigorous therapies before any medical intervention took place. That it would only be a last resort option in the case of a suicidal child.

Then I started to learn otherwise. I started to lurk the GC sub on Reddit for their anti-BDSM content. I didn't agree with their stance on trans issues at first, but over time I began to learn more and more about what was happening. I started to lurk 4thwavenow where I learned about what was actually happening with kids, including toddlers and preschoolers. I started to see how many GNC girls and women were disavowing womanhood. I started to notice the explosion of trans identities and neo-genders and medical interventions without psychiatric treatment, claims of zero dysphoria, instant affirmation, demonization of dissent both within and outside of the medical field, and it became apparent to me that things were very, very wrong.

By 2017 I had peaked, although I tried to remain a fence-sitting GC-leaning moderate for several years, until the Reddit banwave happened in 2020. I figured I might as well just be full on GC since moderation appears to be the enemy of trans rights activists.

Have your beliefs or opinions evolved in other ways?

I guess I became more feminist. Feminism wasn't exactly praised in my town growing up, so I was largely ignorant of it. I couldn't get along with the kind of "choice" feminism that liberal feminists espouse. But after learning about radical feminism, I'm more aligned with that branch than any other. Not totally. But radical feminism and gender critical thought have led to me making peace with my biological sex. I'm not confused about it anymore. I rarely feel the kind of distress I used about being female, especially after ridding myself of the liberal feminist influence on Reddit. I'll probably always struggle to some extent, but I'm much better now.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But radical feminism and gender critical thought have led to me making peace with my biological sex. I'm not confused about it anymore. I rarely feel the kind of distress I used about being female, especially after ridding myself of the liberal feminist influence on Reddit. I'll probably always struggle to some extent, but I'm much better now.

I find this so interesting. If you don't mind my asking, what did both schools of thought help with specifically? Do you find that one helped change your beliefs and find peace with your biological sex more than the other?

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well, it was mostly gender critical thought. That stopped my endless searching for a label for myself. I used to think I was just too masculine to be a normal woman. Now I know that I am a woman, and that nothing can change that, and that I'm not more or less female than any other female person. I'm not defective just because I was (I believe) born different in some way.

Radical feminism helped more with not despairing over issues like violent porn and BDSM. It helps to know there are other women against those things.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for sharing your experiences, that makes sense. That's so wonderful you were able to finally reach that point, that's kind of amazing GC thinking was able to help you do that. If I'm remembering correctly from conversation, you had had issues with your biological sex for nearly your whole life, right?

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was GNC from the age of 3, but I only began to have an issue with my biological sex around 13. I think it was a combination of things. Puberty and my lack of ability to continue to pass as a boy and my growing awareness that I was different enough to alienate me from my peers and fear and confusion over what I imagined life as a woman would be.

Bear in mind, though, that I never had any actual physical dysphoria. I didn't hate my breasts or vagina at any point. It was all social for me. That made it easier to overcome through exposure to different ways of thought. I won't say that I don't sometimes still struggle with being female. I'll always have some gender issues, but it's a lot better than it used to be. I'm definitely much more at peace.

[–]anfd 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I used to not have an opinion on it, but when I looked into it (during the last two years), I found I'm persuaded more by GC than queer/trans arguments.

I had read Judith Butler's Gender Trouble years ago (early 2000s I think), but frankly a lot of it went over my head, and it didn't really connect to anything for me at the time anyway. So let's discount that one and say that one of my first encounters with trans issues was in 2012 when someone I knew who worked for the local LGBTQ+ lobby group made a casual comment on the view that a man can't breastfeed a baby. Her exasperation in making the comment was meant to give the impression that the claim was not only not true, but preposterous. I remember thinking that her comment was strange, and found her vehemence surprising.

However, that was a one-off thing, and I didn't think about it too much. Then, perhaps 3 years ago, I was listening to videos by PhilosophyTube (on YouTube). There I heard for the first time talk about "gestators" and "inseminators" instead of women and men. I thought that insisting that 99+% of people change their everyday vocabulary to accommodate a tiny minority was overkill. I guess at that point I started looking around for what it's all about, and eventually found Meghan Murphy and her work, and her arguments convinced me that it's a better course of action to try to relax gender norms and stereotypes rather than reinforce them in the name of individual choice and pretension that biological sex doesn't exist or matter. I had also read a good deal on evolution already earlier (Gould, Dawkins etc.) so what biological sex is (and how it's different from gender) wasn't difficult to understand.

I'm not, nor have I ever been, convinced by gender abolitionist arguments though. It's the right direction to go from where we're at, but I don't believe it can ever get done the way that at least some public declarations of it would seem to imply. And I don't believe in making declarations that are pipedreams, even if it's "for a good cause", so I'm not a gender abolitionist. To that extent some of the politics of radical feminism (Sheila Jeffreys etc.) is too much for me, I don't think it's useful to define "gender" as a "sex hierarchy" the way she does (Gender Hurts, p. 185). It sounds like one of those philosophical word games that academic radicals of whatever stripe are so in love with.

But the most convincing analysis of sex and gender in the trans discussion for me is to be found among the radfems, and they deserve credit for that one, even if not for some other things.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My beliefs hadn't changed much over the years. I first learned about transgenderism at age 11. Either it was the story of Jazz Jennings who I remember watching on Dr. Phil when she was a little girl, or Thomas Beatie, the pregnant man. I watched a lot of TV during my middle school years but I don't remember which one I saw first. I remember Dr. Phil interviewed young Jazz who said she felt like a girl inside even though she was technically a boy and her parents talked about how she wanted "girl presents" on her birthday and not "boy presents." I understood the whole concept on transgender. Another time the news announced what's coming up right before the commercial break "a man who claims he's pregnant" and I'm like "How can a man get pregnant" but I learned he was trans. He was Thomas Beatie. He was on the Oprah show and told Oprah that during his pre-coming out years, someone complimented him saying he was a good man or something. I assumed that’s why he was trans and thought (and still think) he looked better as a female. I wondered how was he going to give birth because I at that time thought all trans people had SRS, so I assumed he would have to have a c-section. Now it turns out Beatie did in fact have SRS in 2002 but then became pregnant via artificial insemination, doing so with cryogenic donated sperm, because his wife Nancy was infertile.

I was always supportive of the trans community and always will be. There are trans supportive people who used to be GC.

i'm so sorry

I am an ex-TERF, ask me anything.

The ‘gender critical’ feminist movement is a cult that grooms, controls and abuses, according to a lesbian who managed to escape

Encounters with Terfs?

[–]questioningtw 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

IK went from being very pro trans to a trans medicalist to still being a trans medicalist--but leaning more and more GC. I hate how trans activists are hijacking medicine and getting people fired for simply stating wiomen are the ones that get pregnant. How JK Rowling and others are being treated is also a huge factor in becoming more GC.

[–]OffAndSpherehere from roblox lol 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Long story short, unaware to QT to GC to middling.