all 46 comments

[–]anxietyaccount8 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Radfems agree that they would prefer if people did not contribute to porn/the sex industry. That's the #1 thing agreed on. Erotica is not necessarily connected to that industry.

I just had a run in with someone on Ovarit who appears to believe that if one has a partner who watches or has ever watched porn

That's very odd considering you can stop even if you watched it before. Also, how can you be anti-porn if you've never even seen it?

When it comes to discussion on kink, one person might see something as kink where another doesn't. Where is the line drawn? We don't need to decide for every individual person but I'd like to think feminism is about helping vulnerable women. For example, the image of a submissive/masochist woman is glamorized. So it's very likely that's why some women are participating in BDSM. Rather than going to the DMs of those women, or trying to stop all of them, I think RF should simply spread the word about why this is a negative trend.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The porn thing came about because another woman had a discussion with her male partner and told him that if he didn't stop watching porn, she was leaving. She was praised by some, but attacked by others for dating a man who watched porn in the first place.

I chimed in that I had not talked to my partner specifically about him quitting porn (and it's true, we have not talked about it in several years) and was immediately deluged by messages from two posters calling me a sellout and my partner vile, abusive, and misogynistic. I used to watch commercial porn myself. I realized it was ethically problematic and stopped, but I had not felt the need to demand the same from my partner. Apparently some believe I'm a traitor for not doing so.

[–]anxietyaccount8 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, that's an extreme reaction but I guess they thought there's a lot of available men who have not seen porn before? Maybe in some older generations, but the young adults of Gen Z have no choice but to form a relationship with someone who's seen it. Even men in older generations have seen it too (according to statistics)

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would bet it's almost impossible to find a man under 30 who has never seen porn. The main thing for me is that my partner not be aroused by violence or abuse. We haven't talked about it in depth since we were 19, but he told me outright he doesn't like or watch that. I believe him. His history and behavior has always reflected that. Of course that doesn't mean that even "nice" commercial porn is ethical. That's why I quit. Going on a site like Pornhub supports a site that hosts abusive content even if you don't actually watch videos with abusive sex.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

bell hooks writes:

To emphasize that engagement with feminist struggle as political commitment, we could avoid using the phrase "I am a feminist" (a linguistic structure designed to refer to some personal aspect of identity and self-definition) and could state, "I advocate feminism." ... I have found that saying "I am a feminist" usually means I am plugged into preconceived notions of identity, role, or behavior. When I say, "I advocate feminism," the response is usually, "What is feminism?" A phrase like "I advocate" does not imply the kind of absolutism that is suggested by "I am." ... It implies that a choice has been made, that commitment to feminism is an act of will.

Something to consider. What changes when we describe a political ideology as something we advocate instead of something we are?

In one context or another I'm constantly surrounded by people "leaving the left" over the behavior of other people, while they say their own principles are unchanged. When did political ideology become group identity? If we all said "I advocate an end to capitalism" instead of "I am a leftist" could we have preempted this situation?

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In one context or another I'm constantly surrounded by people "leaving the left" over the behavior of other people, while they say their own principles are unchanged. When did political ideology become group identity? If we all said "I advocate an end to capitalism" instead of "I am a leftist" could we have preempted this situation?

I don't think so because what many people mean by "left" is actually liberalism, which is pro-capitalism. So, they will need to word their advocacy differently. Anyway, I think phrases like that are more an expression of disappointment over their political party of choice, which won't dissapear wheter they view their political ideologies as a group identity or not.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's true that most leaving-the-leftists are liberals anyhow. They especially need to write out what they believe as I can't figure it out.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Is there anything to be gained by helping each other correct any errant or problematic behavior someone might be engaged in, and the discussion about what is or isn't errant or problematic? That seems to be the crux of your question.

Yes, there is something to be gained unless we think a world of unrestrained hedonism with no respect for other's boundaries is a thing to be wished for. This is true for everything, from "buy 'American' (or any country someone lives in)", or buy union-made goods, or patronize shops that treat workers well, or "don't pollute", or anything else. Nothing here is different just because the topic is sex and not pollution or ethical working conditions.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Is there anything to be gained by helping each other correct any errant or problematic behavior someone might be engaged in, and the discussion about what is or isn't errant or problematic? That seems to be the crux of your question.

Yes, exactly. I already agree with the first part. I wonder more about the second. Can anyone ever be "pure" enough?

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I find it weird that you agree with the first part but don't realize it is no different than the second part. This sounds like an attempt to abstract and then rationalize sexual abuse and exploitation

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Rationalize sexual abuse and exploitation? Now I'm really confused.

So you do think that certain behaviors or beliefs should be forbidden in the radical feminist world? Previously it sounded like you didn't believe anyone should lose their "card" for engaging in problematic things.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My other response is more exhaustive, and probably much more exhausting.

I don't know if we're talking about certain behaviors being forbidden in the radfem world, because the behavior we're talking about involves couples in their own lives, and only discussions and views in the radfem world. I have no right to impose my views on anyone, or on radfems as I'm a dude. Beliefs must be allowed so people can discuss them and cultivate better and better ideas, and I pity those who think they have perfected their ideas. I think there are some things that should define what radfem is; but how one adapts their views in the abstract to their own lives in practice is not really for any community to work out for them. Discuss it with them? maybe. But not to rule on it and certainly not to excommunicate them for it.

[–]penelopekitty 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Nobody is going to know what is happening in your bedroom unless you tell them. Most of us don't care and can't be bothered to police you. I think you are setting up a straw man and sowing division for no reason.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

I'm asking a question. How is it sowing division? I didn't put this on Ovarit because debates are generally not welcome there.

Are you denying that there are radical feminists who police other women?

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

What's to "debate"? A person's limits are that: limits. People "police" each other all the time. Every topic in this sub is about policing people's vocabularies, the meanings of words, their behaviors, everything: "policing" them by putting boundaries on them or trying to tear the boundaries down.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

I guess whether or not people should lose their "radical feminist card" for engaging in certain behaviors.

Is that something other GC women believe? Is it something they feel strongly about on a personal level?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I dislike the idea of purity levels. It’s too black and white and feeds into the same attack-and-virtue-signal cycle we see in qt groups.

There is no card to lose. It’s not like someone who likes lingerie or handcuffs in their bedroom suddenly becomes unfeminist and stops recognising the issues raised by the radfem community.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Up to a point. For me the line is crossed when they try to promote or defend harmful, misogynistic things in a radical feminist space. If it's strictly in their personal lives, I'll still disagree with it, but I don't think it cancels out their opinions on other matters.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But if that’s what they’re trying to promote, are they even (“radical”) feminists at all?

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's a good question. On a gut level, I don't consider women who happily participate in sexualized violence to be feminists, but I'm not advocating kicking them out of radical feminist spaces as long as they're not trying to defend it.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Well, yea..doing the exact opposite of what radical feminism aims for is clearly not a radfem act and probably isn’t done by radfem women.

But if we start picking apart our own and buying into this-is-or-isn’t mentality, we make an ouroboros.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

You'd be surprised. I keep running into kink defenders on Ovarit even though it's explicitly against the rules.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Defenders of personally engaging in things deemed ‘kinky’ or defenders of pornography, public displays of fetishes, or exposing children to it?

Are they in support of adults doing what they want in their own bedrooms, or are they saying that only fans is empowering?

I don’t see how this makes the card holder stuff a good way to look at anything.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Defending kink like proper liberal feminists would, talking about it not being harmful, not misogynistic, that it can happen in a loving relationship, that the "sub has all the power" and other junk arguments.

I have not seen radical feminists try to argue it should be public or in front of children, thank God, but that's setting the bar pretty low.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Are you charged with issuing those cards? What were the terms when you issued them? Your last two questions, and this whole subject. seems like an attempt to find a way around other people's limits, like a bad cartoon character from the 40s trying to get at a fresh baked pie cooling on a window sill.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, this is a debate sub. I'm asking what other GC feminists personally feel. If you don't want to answer, you don't have to.

I put "radical feminist card" in quotes. What do you mean trying to find a way around people's limits? I don't get where you're coming from at all.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The title of the topic is not what other GC feminists feel, but what the limits should be. You are asking for a broad declaration when it must be and can only be a reflection of the individual's experiences and the sense they make out of the role 'erotic consumption and sexual behavior' play in the person's life and relationships and as they see it in society. I think in general we've taken too far the idea that "we" (any "we" there is) are some cohesive group with the same ideas and motivations and goals and needs and desires and experiences that can then draw up guidelines we can all agree to follow. The past decade or two has been one massive erasing of the fact that we are all individuals. I think it has left us where we're now easily manipulated as masses of "wes" by centralized authoritarians that ultimately really just despise us all.

I apologize, because I thought you were coming from a disingenuous place and were like a member of team QT trying to find ways to divide the rather loose GC community or to undermine the GC position by focusing on extreme outliers.

My best answer is that there are hurt people out there and they express their pain in sometimes over-reaching ways and by imposing their caution and their defense mechanisms on others. The idea of berating a woman for dating a guy who views porn or who has viewed porn is obviously unrealistic. There simply would not be that many of those guys to go around.

An honest and open discussion about it between the couple might be rare, and very tough, and probably long. The benefit could be amazing though. But, who really is open to that kind of transparency and scrutiny and all that, without the reflexive "well what about this other thing you do" getting in the way?

But women who are looking to kick out less strident women are probably acting out their own defense mechanisms, OR we're talking about fake accounts who are trying to divide people and push the most black and white world view to cause discord. There is so much of the latter, creating more homogeneous "wes" to categorize and manipulate, that we have to start accounting for it in everything. Minus that very real group of sock puppets, those were express it genuinely need healing.

The guys who are looking at porn have to understand it in at least two contexts. First being the obvious exploitation and damage that is going, both the seen and unseen, and both in the actual porn as well as in the industry that is not seen, but before the women even agree to get into porn. (and after). The other context is the inclination to get off on porn which has many contributing factors. The idea that we're just naturally supposed be masturbating should be reexamined. I doubt the dopamine addiction (I think that is what it is) was understood back when psychologists were pushing back against "it's a sin, you'll go blind and grow hair on your palms" (though, going blind might be an excellent symbolic representation of it) and no one listening to psychologists back then had any idea just how bad psych was with publish bad studies and doing bad work and the whole crisis of reproducibility it has.

The utility of using porn towards that end can not be separated from what is essentially the sexual or relationship propaganda that porn delivers along with the 'eye candy' during what I guess is the firing of mirror neurons in the process. Going back to the surprising and probably unintentional symbolism in "it will make you go blind", these lies in that propaganda blind the guy to what is real in himself and in women and in the woman in his life if he has one. I don't expect those GC women who are also victims of men, who then develop such strong defense mechanisms, to see porn that way nor to explain to guys why it's bad like a grown up talking to a kid. I don't expect many people to have thought about it deeply enough, and I doubt I have either.

Sorry for misconstruing your motivations, and I offer up the above words as an apology. I hope you like words in salad form!

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

I do think there has to be hard limits.

But most this is fringe purity politics.

Also everything legal is not always right. A person can be emotionally cruel, a bad person, without it being illegal. Such is life. We can't institute laws for every moral failure.

Regarding the purity of feminists I think this gets at some of the fundamental issues with proper Radical Feminism, it's ultra exclusive and starts from an unrealistic model of the world. Even feminists who take time to join radical feminist debate can't agree on how pure it should be because it's so far from how most people function. This leaves only a tiny percentage of the population that can pass the purity test.

That model of the world doesn't hold up and the people can't live up to it.

Too many people at a basic level enjoy at least some porn, mild bdsm, entertain politically incorrect fantasies, enjoy fetishized gender models. That's just how people are. Most people in liberal nations recognise that. You can't police every consensual bedroom fantasy.

Also everyone engaging in these things aren't bad people. The men and women in these categories are essentially the majority and they aren't the monsters or agency free victims. They are average people.

Exiling people who have done anything "tainted" is classic cult purity spiral stuff.

But there has to be limits and a recognition of good and bad behaviour.

On a personal level I recall female friends quizzing me on porn use. But really me saying I didn't use porn was not for the reasons they were hoping for.

EDIT oops just realise this was GC only

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This leaves only a tiny percentage of the population that can pass the purity test.

Frankly, I think I'm pretty "pure" but apparently not enough for some.

Also everyone engaging in these things aren't bad people.

Eh, debatable. There are many bad people in the world. That doesn't mean everyone is a depraved monster. Those are just the worst of the worst. It doesn't mean the others are good.

On a personal level I recall female friends quizzing me on porn use. But really me saying I didn't use porn was not for the reasons they were hoping for.

Good point. The question should be why a man doesn't watch porn. There are many who stop watching for purely self-interested reasons. They don't care about the abuse or exploitation of women at all. I'd rather a respectful man look at a naked photo on Reddit than deal with a disrespectful man who still gets off on violence but chooses not to watch porn because it desensitizes his penis.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'd rather a respectful man look at a naked photo on Reddit

I doubt such man really exists. If men are watching porn, it doesn't end with them just looking to nude photos. They are watching far more and far worse. It's not like the violent stuff is hard to find. And there is no lack of other men telling each other that it's all "harmeless fun" and that porn is "free speech" and anyone who says otherwise should not be listened to.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, it's not like every man is watching the worst stuff out there. My partner and I talked about porn in depth, and without getting into TMI, I know what he likes, and it's not violent. He also doesn't watch anything with men in it, just women by themselves or together. This was back when we were both interested in porn, so around age 19 to 22, we talked about it several times. We haven't had a discussion in a while, but we have discussed all other aspects of sex, and he's reassured me (because I'm so fucking paranoid) he doesn't get turned on by misogyny or violence. I have to trust him on that. I would be devastated to learn otherwise, but I truly do not think it's in his nature. He's never betrayed even the slightest hint of that in our sex life.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Frankly, I think I'm pretty "pure" but apparently not enough for some.

This is the nature of purity spirals.

Eh, debatable. There are many bad people in the world. That doesn't mean everyone is a depraved monster. Those are just the worst of the worst. It doesn't mean the others are good.

But we can't pass laws about it all was more my point there.

Good point. The question should be why a man doesn't watch porn. There are many who stop watching for purely self-interested reasons. They don't care about the abuse or exploitation of women at all. I'd rather a respectful man look at a naked photo on Reddit than deal with a disrespectful man who still gets off on violence but chooses not to watch porn because it desensitizes his penis.

I can understand that.

Just realised this was GC only. My mistake. Though I'm all for these debates.

I think a lot of QT or liberal side don't always think these things through or don't grasp them.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But we can't pass laws about it all was more my point there.

Oh yeah, definitely not. The law should only deal with the most egregious circumstances of harm. If a man kills or seriously injures a woman during violent sex, he should be afforded no excuse. But I don't think the law needs to intrude into the bedroom otherwise.

Just realised this was GC only. My mistake. Though I'm all for these debates.

No worries, everyone is welcome to chime in.

[–]Radish 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Porn makes its money on abuse of women. I'm not in favor of supporting the industry. BDSM concerns me, because the dynamic is sick, and hurts people. That doesn't give me the right to say bad, you shouldn't do it, because people have different ways of coping with things. The origin of a lot of paraphilias is hard to discover and to get rid of, and not everyone is inclined to do it. I'd say if all parties involved are enjoying it and nobody is getting hurt, I don't care. As a lesbian, I don't necessarily want to hear a lot about your wonderful sex life with a guy, but I don't have to read that shit if I don't want to.