QT: What rights don’t trans people have?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (43 children)

Many groups have names for "outsiders". The deaf call hearing people hearing people. We call non-disabled people able-bodied. Jews call non-Jews goy/goyim.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Sure. your “group” can refer to people inaccurately if they want to. I mean, they refer to themselves inaccurately constantly and try to force the rest of us to as well, so there’s no reason to expect them not to do the same to others lol

That doesn’t mean that cis just means not trans, a quick internet search shows what cis means and what the implications behind it are.

Deaf people can and do also often say “not deaf”

Able bodied is a phrase I hear often so I agree there

Jews can and often do say that someone/something is “not Jewish”

The difference is that there’s an implication behind calling someone cis, the word literally means that we have a gender identity.

when you refer to someone who isn’t deaf as a “hearing person” all you’re saying is that the person can hear/isn’t deaf, nothing more.

when you refer to someone as “able bodied” all you’re saying is that they aren’t disabled, nothing more.

when you call someone cis it’s done to validate trans people’s identities and it reaffirms a toxic, homophobic, and misogynistic ideology.

So, once again and not surprisingly so, your examples don’t work because the things you compare to the mentally ill community you stan so hard aren’t comparable at all.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (17 children)

Deaf and HOH people often use the term hearing people to refer to non-deaf/HOH people.

Yes we disabled people may use the term able-bodied and abled.

We do use the term non-Jews, because most non-Jews don't know the meaning of the terms goy/goyim. Goyim means nations in Hebrew, but Jews use the term in their communities to refer to non-Jews.

Cis merely means you aren't trans. Transgenderism is not a mental illness. Many trans people physically transition and most are satisfied with the results. Some regret it. I am actually mentally ill. I have bipolar, OCD and ADHD.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I genuinely can’t tell if you truly don’t get what I’m saying or just don’t want to address it. I know I asked this elsewhere but I feel like it’s a question I have often with you.

My point is that cis doesn’t just translate to “not trans” the same way that “hearing” translates to “not deaf”.

If the trans community wants to use cis to just mean “not trans” (which is decidedly NOT how they are using it but I’ll pretend) that’s their thing and Idgaf, but it’s not what the word means and it’s not even how tras explain the word to us when they want to educate us.

The physical state of having given yourself a cross sex hormonal imbalance and possibly also having undergone drastic cosmetic surgeries is not a mental illness because it’s a physical state. So it can’t be.

However the reasons that people take those steps to “transition” are all so obviously deeply rooted in mental illness that Im certain you knew what I meant by what I said

I understand you’re mentally ill, so is the trans community- which was my point.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (14 children)

Then what does cis mean in this society?

Also, HRT is not a hormonal imbalance.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

cisgender [sisˈjendər] ADJECTIVE denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex

Trans people don’t go on HRT they take cross sex hormones to intentionally give their bodies abnormal hormone levels. If a man who isn’t trans were put on cross sex hormones for long enough he’d develop “breasts” too, only for him it would be a negative side effect rather than the goal. So like I said- intentional hormonal imbalance.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Then what does cis mean in this society?

As you've been shown repeatedly, it's a conditional descriptor. You have to have a gender identity in order to be "cis." Gender identity is neither a commonly accepted nor scientific concept.

It's nothing more than in-group slang, and doesn't remotely apply to the populace at large.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

You don't need to have a gender identity in order to be cis.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You don't need to have a gender identity in order to be cis

You absolutely, unequivocally do.

ETA quote and allow me to logic-map it for you.

"Cis" is a designator unique to trans advocacy

Trans advocacy includes a core concept of gender identity which is not widely accepted outside the community

"Cis" is categorically linked to gender identity

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But lacking gender identity is making someone "agender". Why changing rules mid-way?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 10 fun2 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 10 fun -  (8 children)

Agender is part of the nom-binary spectrum. So that means you can't call yourself male or female anymore.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Male or female is not gender identity, it is sex.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Agender is part of the nom-binary spectrum.

More or less all people here would be trans according to the definitions trans activists use, yes. I personally think that is an overly broad definition so I define trans as someone who is taking hormones. But if not having a cisgender gender identity is the being trans to you I think you should own up to that and recognize most of us are trans according to the definitions you adhere to.

that means you can't call yourself male or female anymore.

Plenty of trans people have called themselves their biological sex. Blair White has recognized being a biological male, Buck Angel has recognized being a biological female, are they cis according to you? You shouldn't make special rules just for non-trans people. And trans people say gender identity and biological sex are two separate things so being truthful about one’s biological sex (a truth the person might not even like) doesn’t really say anything at all about that person’s gender identity. Thirdly, even people who call themselves nonbinary and specifically avoid calling themselves the specific letters “male” and “female” are still frequently calling themselves biological males and females by calling themselves amabs and afabs. The meaning of a word is what it refer to, not the specific letters combinations used, so if female trans people call themselves afabs, they are still calling themselves females as female is what they refer to.

[–]strictly 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cis merely means you aren't trans.

It doesn’t, otherwise you would be fine just calling us non-trans, instead you choose to refer to more narrow concept of having a gender identity at the same side of biological sex even though that’s not the case for us.

Trans people often say calling non-trans people people cisgender is like calling people straight. We don’t call non-homosexual people heterosexual indiscriminately though as not all non-homosexual people are heterosexual. It would be wrong of me to claim heterosexual just means “not homosexual” and call bisexual heterosexual, because heterosexual means more than not homosexual, it means being attracted to only the opposite sex. It’s the same way with cisgender, it implies way more than merely not transitioning.

[–]NeedMoreCoffeeGC 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What sloane means is that insisting people call themselves cis is like insisting an atheist calls himself a heretic, infidel or kafir. Atheists are not religious and do not see themselves as heritics and find it insulting.

We don't believe in gender identity so we can never call ourselves cis and we find it insulting. We believe in biological sex and that everyone has their own personality. We don't think "gender identity" is a thing.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

those are called slurs.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (21 children)

Hearing is a slur? Able-bodied is a slur?

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

You pretending that those are what I'm referring to is pathetic, but that's all team QT ever is.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

Then what are you referring to by "slur"?

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

An easy to recognize words you use that might be slurs, and probably are slurs, are to consider the words you use for a group of people that they do not use for themselves. You have the words you prefer people use about trans people, and we have the words we would have been using otherwise. Similarly you have words you use for people I would just otherwise call normal or actual men or women. To call an actual man or woman something other than man or woman, or actual man or woman, or your normal everyday run of the mill man or woman, might be a slur. I'd rather not use the word you OBVIOUSLY know I'm referring to, you disingenuous dishonest POS*, so keep on pretending you don't know.

Footnotes: * Person of substance, as in a person who is materially real not imaginary and mostly likely having a sexed body which is also not imaginary.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

A slur is an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo. Calling someone cis is not an insult. Many cis people use the term to refer to themselves, including myself. When we coined the term, we meant it to mean someone whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth. It was not meant to be an insult. Cis people do not experience oppression for being cis.

Using terms like "actual men/women" or "normal men/women" implies that trans people aren't actual men/women. I call actual men and women men and women, and use cis and trans when the sub-categories are relevant.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

When we coined the term, we meant it to mean someone whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth

If the person in question doesn't have a gender identity then its misgendering, something you claim to be against.

Calling someone cis is not an insult.

When you insist someone without a gender identity has one you are lying about them, and most people see being lied about as an insult, especially if you continue lying about them despite their protest. And as you are lying about their mind that is very personal.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

If the person in question doesn't have a gender identity then its misgendering, something you claim to be against.

If your filling out a form (non-medical) and they ask for your gender/sex with options of "male" "female" and "other". If you're cis, you select your birth sex. If your not cis, you have to select something else.

When you insist someone without a gender identity has one you are lying about them, and most people see being lied about as an insult, especially if you continue lying about them despite their protest. And as you are lying about their mind that is very personal.

Ok. Someone without a gender identity is not a man or woman.

[–]strictly 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If your filling out a form (non-medical) and they ask for your gender/sex with options of "male" "female" and "other". If you're cis, you select your birth sex. If your not cis, you have to select something else.

Many trans people have recognized their biological sex outside of medical forms (including Blair White and Buck Angel), knowing your biological sex is not gender identity. You need proof that the person admitting being female/male is a hardcore genderist and is indeed referring to gender identity and absolutely not biological sex when using words for biological sex. As you define male and female as gender identities then you calling yourself the word you use for a gender identity can be used as proof of you yourself having a gender identity but it doesn't prove any of that for those who don't share your genderfied definitions. That would be like if an American speaking English would call a bottle of wine a "gift" and the German police would arrest the American for admitting to giving away poison as gift is the German word for poison. Using a certain letter combination can only be proof of having a gender identity if that letter combination is the letter combination the person personally uses to refer to gender identity, otherwise the person is speaking about something else.

Ok. Someone without a gender identity is not a man or woman.

As you define man and woman as gender identities someone without a gender identity would have neither of gender identities you refer to, so yes, that is the most consistent/respectful stance a genderist can take. I think people who define man and woman as gender identities are morally obligated to never call anyone a man or a woman unless they have proof the person has the gender identity referred to as we shouldn’t make assumptions about people's minds.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Then majority of people in the world are neither men nor women. And that does not make sense and is not useful anywhere, as somehow muslims are finding who is boy and who is girl to do FGM, chinese and indean parents are finding who is girl and boy to abort them - much earlier before those kids can ever realize what the thing "identity" is at all.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do white people get to decide what words offend black people. Trans people do not get to decide what words offend normal people, or superstraights. You are insulting and disingenuous and for all the crying from team trans and team QT about power and oppression, you get terms like "tranny" "men in dresses" banned but feign ignorance over he slurs you constantly use. You are a fraud.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Trans people do not get to decide what words offend normal people, or superstraights.

Are trans people not normal? I don't want to be called a "normal person", I want to be called a "cis person". The term "normal" itself has an ableist history. I don't care if you call yourself superstraight. I don't care who you're attracted to. Cis people don't experience discrimination for being cis. They won't lose their jobs for being cis, they won't experience violence in the bathroom for being cis, etc. The n-word was used to discriminate and oppress people. Cis is not used that way. It's used to describe someone who isn't trans. The only thing is some people don't like to be called cis. That doesn't necessarily make the term a slur.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only thing is some people don't like to be called cis.

Those who don't like being called cis are those who aren't cis. I think that is kind of given even according to gender ideology, gender identities are supposed to feel affirmative so people who are truly cisgender would love being called cis. A true gender identity wouldn't feel insulting or incogruent to be called, according to gender ideology hating to be called a gender identity would be sign of not having that gender identity.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Calling yourself "cis" don't mean much. Some women call themselves "bitch", it doesn't mean "bitch" is not an insult. And trans identified people and allies do use "cis" as an insult all the time. If you don't see this, maybe you need to spend less time hate-reading GC spaces and listen more to what trans people actually say.

I don't call myself "cis" because I don't believe in concept of "gender identity", I'm not a walking stereotype (are you ever going to tell us what having a "female gender identity" means for you?), I know there are only two sexes and humans can't change sex, and I don't think the fact of being born female makes me privileged over (some) males.