QT: What rights don’t trans people have?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

Then what are you referring to by "slur"?

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

An easy to recognize words you use that might be slurs, and probably are slurs, are to consider the words you use for a group of people that they do not use for themselves. You have the words you prefer people use about trans people, and we have the words we would have been using otherwise. Similarly you have words you use for people I would just otherwise call normal or actual men or women. To call an actual man or woman something other than man or woman, or actual man or woman, or your normal everyday run of the mill man or woman, might be a slur. I'd rather not use the word you OBVIOUSLY know I'm referring to, you disingenuous dishonest POS*, so keep on pretending you don't know.

Footnotes: * Person of substance, as in a person who is materially real not imaginary and mostly likely having a sexed body which is also not imaginary.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

A slur is an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo. Calling someone cis is not an insult. Many cis people use the term to refer to themselves, including myself. When we coined the term, we meant it to mean someone whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth. It was not meant to be an insult. Cis people do not experience oppression for being cis.

Using terms like "actual men/women" or "normal men/women" implies that trans people aren't actual men/women. I call actual men and women men and women, and use cis and trans when the sub-categories are relevant.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

When we coined the term, we meant it to mean someone whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth

If the person in question doesn't have a gender identity then its misgendering, something you claim to be against.

Calling someone cis is not an insult.

When you insist someone without a gender identity has one you are lying about them, and most people see being lied about as an insult, especially if you continue lying about them despite their protest. And as you are lying about their mind that is very personal.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

If the person in question doesn't have a gender identity then its misgendering, something you claim to be against.

If your filling out a form (non-medical) and they ask for your gender/sex with options of "male" "female" and "other". If you're cis, you select your birth sex. If your not cis, you have to select something else.

When you insist someone without a gender identity has one you are lying about them, and most people see being lied about as an insult, especially if you continue lying about them despite their protest. And as you are lying about their mind that is very personal.

Ok. Someone without a gender identity is not a man or woman.

[–]strictly 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If your filling out a form (non-medical) and they ask for your gender/sex with options of "male" "female" and "other". If you're cis, you select your birth sex. If your not cis, you have to select something else.

Many trans people have recognized their biological sex outside of medical forms (including Blair White and Buck Angel), knowing your biological sex is not gender identity. You need proof that the person admitting being female/male is a hardcore genderist and is indeed referring to gender identity and absolutely not biological sex when using words for biological sex. As you define male and female as gender identities then you calling yourself the word you use for a gender identity can be used as proof of you yourself having a gender identity but it doesn't prove any of that for those who don't share your genderfied definitions. That would be like if an American speaking English would call a bottle of wine a "gift" and the German police would arrest the American for admitting to giving away poison as gift is the German word for poison. Using a certain letter combination can only be proof of having a gender identity if that letter combination is the letter combination the person personally uses to refer to gender identity, otherwise the person is speaking about something else.

Ok. Someone without a gender identity is not a man or woman.

As you define man and woman as gender identities someone without a gender identity would have neither of gender identities you refer to, so yes, that is the most consistent/respectful stance a genderist can take. I think people who define man and woman as gender identities are morally obligated to never call anyone a man or a woman unless they have proof the person has the gender identity referred to as we shouldn’t make assumptions about people's minds.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Then majority of people in the world are neither men nor women. And that does not make sense and is not useful anywhere, as somehow muslims are finding who is boy and who is girl to do FGM, chinese and indean parents are finding who is girl and boy to abort them - much earlier before those kids can ever realize what the thing "identity" is at all.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

The majority of people in this world identify as men or women, and that is called the gender binary. If their identity corresponds to their sex assigned at birth, that makes them cis. Most people are not trans, so the majority of this world is cis.

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The majority of people in this world identify as men or women

Knowing your biological sex is not an gender identity (otherwise all trans people would be considered cisgendered people of their biological sex) so you need proof that all these people refer to gender identity and not biological sex when calling themselves men and women. You have no such proof so it's disrespectful of you to make baseless assumptions about their gender identities when you don't know what they are talking about. To know if man calling himself a man can be used as proof of the man being cisgendered you first need to ask the man to define the word man, only in cases the man defines it as a gender identity it can used as proof of admitting to have a gender identity. In many cases the man is just referring to being biological adult human male and that's it. To translate it to terminology you understand, the male is just admitting being "amab", and you don't use trans people calling themselves "amab" as proof of them actually being "cisgendered" and having amab as their gender identity.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

Most transgender people identify themselves by their gender identity. Trans men claim they are men. Just ask r/FTM. If the man did not have a gender identity, he would not be referring to himself as a man, but rather "AMAB".

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Trans men claim they are men

They claim that they have a gender identity which they have named "man" so they are talking about gender identity, not biological sex. You need to prove 100% of all the men you call cisgender also refer to gender identity and not biological sex, you have no such proof.

If the man did not have a gender identity, he would not be referring to himself as a man, but rather "AMAB".

If a man referring to himself as a man does not have a gender identity he would not define man as a gender identity, that means he would not need to refer to himself with the letter combination "amab" as he uses the letter combination "man" to refer to exactly that. You already know not everybody agrees with your genderfied redefinitions so it's intellectually dishonest of you to suddenly pretend as if everyone (including GC) would refer to gender identity and not biological sex when you know that's not the case. You need to prove the man defines man as gender identity before you safely call the man cisgender for referring to himself a man.

It sounds like you have a hard time understanding that GC and genderists are referring to different things with certain letter combinations, and that it is the thing referred to, not the letter combination itself, which gives a word its meaning. When you call me something I don't care about the exact sounds that come out of your throat, I care about what you mean. Therefor I would consider it an insult if you called me a woman, as you, as a genderist, would refer to a gender identity I don't have, making it a lie. Had you not been a genderist and simply meant adult human biological female, then that is a true statement and not an insult.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"AMAB" and "AFAB" are very nieche termins, which are unknown to majority of people, even among transgender people many do not know what it means.

Originally "AMAB" and "AFAB" were the malpractice healthcare institutes were doing against people with DSD conditions which often were leading to IGM or FGM without consent of a kid or parents."AMAB" and "AFAB" are existing less than half a century, and only in English speaking countries, and they started being used more often only oround 15-20 years ago, they are very new phrases, which are unknown to majority of people. And do not forget that those term were very toxic, they are misnomers, and almost slurs (like "hermaphrodite"), until recently when they were appropriated by gender ideology movement. Same with word "queer", which is still used as an offensive slur almost 100% of the time by society I am currently living in (I am temporarily returned home from Europe).

Many of languages does not even have words to say that at all. So it would be weird for someone to communicate like that, when previously "man" meant "being human male" and "woman" meant "being human female", which is still the main understanding of those words even in Anglosphere countries by casual people, who are not interested in any politics.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is complete lies. Majority of people just ARE, they are not identifying with anything and question about identity is putting them off guard, in a state of complete incomprehension or in stupor. People just don't understand what that even mean. Especially working class people - they do not have time to think about "existentional crisis" and "humanism and what it is to be human". This is mostly prerogative of privileged and/or rich people with a ton of free time, who can focus on themselves more than on trying to live and survive.

In my language (and in most languages I know, except English) there even no such word with meaning "woman gender identity", only "female human" and "female animal/mammal" ones exist, so you can't even explain to people what it means and why it is different. And everyone is saying that explanation of Stonewall as "taking gender role of woman and living as woman" - is very sexist.

Plus majority of people would be non-binary, not "cis", as they are performing both male and female traits. And if take into account GLAAD's definition, then at least half of population are trans, because GLAAD's definition relies on very American stereotypes of masculinity and femininity, while in Asia and Africa they are completely different.

So I'd say only minority of people have gender identity at all - be it cis, NB or trans.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do white people get to decide what words offend black people. Trans people do not get to decide what words offend normal people, or superstraights. You are insulting and disingenuous and for all the crying from team trans and team QT about power and oppression, you get terms like "tranny" "men in dresses" banned but feign ignorance over he slurs you constantly use. You are a fraud.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Trans people do not get to decide what words offend normal people, or superstraights.

Are trans people not normal? I don't want to be called a "normal person", I want to be called a "cis person". The term "normal" itself has an ableist history. I don't care if you call yourself superstraight. I don't care who you're attracted to. Cis people don't experience discrimination for being cis. They won't lose their jobs for being cis, they won't experience violence in the bathroom for being cis, etc. The n-word was used to discriminate and oppress people. Cis is not used that way. It's used to describe someone who isn't trans. The only thing is some people don't like to be called cis. That doesn't necessarily make the term a slur.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only thing is some people don't like to be called cis.

Those who don't like being called cis are those who aren't cis. I think that is kind of given even according to gender ideology, gender identities are supposed to feel affirmative so people who are truly cisgender would love being called cis. A true gender identity wouldn't feel insulting or incogruent to be called, according to gender ideology hating to be called a gender identity would be sign of not having that gender identity.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Calling yourself "cis" don't mean much. Some women call themselves "bitch", it doesn't mean "bitch" is not an insult. And trans identified people and allies do use "cis" as an insult all the time. If you don't see this, maybe you need to spend less time hate-reading GC spaces and listen more to what trans people actually say.

I don't call myself "cis" because I don't believe in concept of "gender identity", I'm not a walking stereotype (are you ever going to tell us what having a "female gender identity" means for you?), I know there are only two sexes and humans can't change sex, and I don't think the fact of being born female makes me privileged over (some) males.