QT: What rights don’t trans people have?

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[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

When we coined the term, we meant it to mean someone whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth

If the person in question doesn't have a gender identity then its misgendering, something you claim to be against.

Calling someone cis is not an insult.

When you insist someone without a gender identity has one you are lying about them, and most people see being lied about as an insult, especially if you continue lying about them despite their protest. And as you are lying about their mind that is very personal.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

If the person in question doesn't have a gender identity then its misgendering, something you claim to be against.

If your filling out a form (non-medical) and they ask for your gender/sex with options of "male" "female" and "other". If you're cis, you select your birth sex. If your not cis, you have to select something else.

When you insist someone without a gender identity has one you are lying about them, and most people see being lied about as an insult, especially if you continue lying about them despite their protest. And as you are lying about their mind that is very personal.

Ok. Someone without a gender identity is not a man or woman.

[–]strictly 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If your filling out a form (non-medical) and they ask for your gender/sex with options of "male" "female" and "other". If you're cis, you select your birth sex. If your not cis, you have to select something else.

Many trans people have recognized their biological sex outside of medical forms (including Blair White and Buck Angel), knowing your biological sex is not gender identity. You need proof that the person admitting being female/male is a hardcore genderist and is indeed referring to gender identity and absolutely not biological sex when using words for biological sex. As you define male and female as gender identities then you calling yourself the word you use for a gender identity can be used as proof of you yourself having a gender identity but it doesn't prove any of that for those who don't share your genderfied definitions. That would be like if an American speaking English would call a bottle of wine a "gift" and the German police would arrest the American for admitting to giving away poison as gift is the German word for poison. Using a certain letter combination can only be proof of having a gender identity if that letter combination is the letter combination the person personally uses to refer to gender identity, otherwise the person is speaking about something else.

Ok. Someone without a gender identity is not a man or woman.

As you define man and woman as gender identities someone without a gender identity would have neither of gender identities you refer to, so yes, that is the most consistent/respectful stance a genderist can take. I think people who define man and woman as gender identities are morally obligated to never call anyone a man or a woman unless they have proof the person has the gender identity referred to as we shouldn’t make assumptions about people's minds.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Then majority of people in the world are neither men nor women. And that does not make sense and is not useful anywhere, as somehow muslims are finding who is boy and who is girl to do FGM, chinese and indean parents are finding who is girl and boy to abort them - much earlier before those kids can ever realize what the thing "identity" is at all.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

The majority of people in this world identify as men or women, and that is called the gender binary. If their identity corresponds to their sex assigned at birth, that makes them cis. Most people are not trans, so the majority of this world is cis.

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The majority of people in this world identify as men or women

Knowing your biological sex is not an gender identity (otherwise all trans people would be considered cisgendered people of their biological sex) so you need proof that all these people refer to gender identity and not biological sex when calling themselves men and women. You have no such proof so it's disrespectful of you to make baseless assumptions about their gender identities when you don't know what they are talking about. To know if man calling himself a man can be used as proof of the man being cisgendered you first need to ask the man to define the word man, only in cases the man defines it as a gender identity it can used as proof of admitting to have a gender identity. In many cases the man is just referring to being biological adult human male and that's it. To translate it to terminology you understand, the male is just admitting being "amab", and you don't use trans people calling themselves "amab" as proof of them actually being "cisgendered" and having amab as their gender identity.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

Most transgender people identify themselves by their gender identity. Trans men claim they are men. Just ask r/FTM. If the man did not have a gender identity, he would not be referring to himself as a man, but rather "AMAB".

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Trans men claim they are men

They claim that they have a gender identity which they have named "man" so they are talking about gender identity, not biological sex. You need to prove 100% of all the men you call cisgender also refer to gender identity and not biological sex, you have no such proof.

If the man did not have a gender identity, he would not be referring to himself as a man, but rather "AMAB".

If a man referring to himself as a man does not have a gender identity he would not define man as a gender identity, that means he would not need to refer to himself with the letter combination "amab" as he uses the letter combination "man" to refer to exactly that. You already know not everybody agrees with your genderfied redefinitions so it's intellectually dishonest of you to suddenly pretend as if everyone (including GC) would refer to gender identity and not biological sex when you know that's not the case. You need to prove the man defines man as gender identity before you safely call the man cisgender for referring to himself a man.

It sounds like you have a hard time understanding that GC and genderists are referring to different things with certain letter combinations, and that it is the thing referred to, not the letter combination itself, which gives a word its meaning. When you call me something I don't care about the exact sounds that come out of your throat, I care about what you mean. Therefor I would consider it an insult if you called me a woman, as you, as a genderist, would refer to a gender identity I don't have, making it a lie. Had you not been a genderist and simply meant adult human biological female, then that is a true statement and not an insult.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

They claim that they have a gender identity which they have named "man" so they are talking about gender identity, not biological sex. You need to prove 100% of all the men you call cisgender also refer to gender identity and not biological sex, you have no such proof.

To be trans means you don't primarily identify by your biological sex. Yes, Buck acknowledges that he's biologically female, but that's now he primarily identifies. He identifies as a man. Agender is part of the transgender spectrum. You can be a man, woman, both (bigender) or neither (agender). Someone who primarily identifies by their sex assigned at birth is cisgender.

If a man referring to himself as a man does not have a gender identity he would not define man as a gender identity, that means he would not need to refer to himself with the letter combination "amab" as he uses the letter combination "man" to refer to exactly that. You already know not everybody agrees with your genderfied redefinitions so it's intellectually dishonest of you to suddenly pretend as if everyone (including GC) would refer to gender identity and not biological sex when you know that's not the case. You need to prove the man defines man as gender identity before you safely call the man cisgender for referring to himself a man.

Someone without a gender identity is not a man. I know GC people don't agree, but someone whose gender identity matches their birth sex is cisgender. That's literally all cis means.

When you call me something I don't care about the exact sounds that come out of your throat, I care about what you mean. Therefor I would consider it an insult if you called me a woman, as you, as a genderist, would refer to a gender identity I don't have, making it a lie. Had you not been a genderist and simply meant adult human biological female, then that is a true statement and not an insult.

Then I won't call you a woman then, because you are not one. I respect your identity and pronouns. However, a GC person will call adult AFAB a woman, even if the person states they are not a woman. They insult AFAB people.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Someone who primarily identifies by their sex assigned at birth is cisgender.

Knowing your biological sex is simply knowledge, not an identity, otherwise Buck Angel would be a cisgendered woman, or perhaps "bigender" for "identifying as biological female" and having this "man-identity" at the same time. It's you who is assigning people with gender identities simply for knowing their biological sex, this shouldn't be assumed without asking the person in question if their biological sex is indeed a primary identity to them and the person saying yes to that.

Agender is part of the transgender spectrum.

Yeah, so people who say they have no gender identity wouldn't be cisgender even according to gender ideology.

I know GC people don't agree, but someone whose gender identity matches their birth sex is cisgender. That's literally all cis means.

I actually agree that people who have made their biological sex into their gender identity are cisgender so I have never disbelieved your gender identity. I am saying all the people who don't share your gender identity are not cisgender and that many people are simply biologically female without having any matching gender identity and should not be called cisgender.

That's literally all cis means.

Yeah, making it an insulting thing to be called for anyone who doesn't have a gender identity as it's lie.

However, a GC person will call adult AFAB a woman, even if the person states they are not a woman. They insult AFAB people.

What you see as the insulting thing here is not sharing your definitions, but there is no lie as we are not referring to any false gender identity. Even to you an "AFAB"-person is an "AFAB"-person regardless if that "AFAB"-person likes being "AFAB" or not, and woman is simply the word for adult human "AFAB" to us. I consider lies worse than uncomfortable truths. Changing the definition of woman to refer to gender identity instead would almost inevitably lead to misgendering female people en masse with false gender identities, that goes against my morals.

EDIT: Accidental double negation

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting how genderists are so hypocritical in such questions. At one hand saying that identifying means all, and then forcing "cis" identity on people who disagree with them, or calling "cis women" - women, even without asking their self-identity, pronouns and assuming person have gender identity at all. So in the end genderists are doing something that is "literal violence" when done to them, but have no issue doing it themselves.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"AMAB" and "AFAB" are very nieche termins, which are unknown to majority of people, even among transgender people many do not know what it means.

Originally "AMAB" and "AFAB" were the malpractice healthcare institutes were doing against people with DSD conditions which often were leading to IGM or FGM without consent of a kid or parents."AMAB" and "AFAB" are existing less than half a century, and only in English speaking countries, and they started being used more often only oround 15-20 years ago, they are very new phrases, which are unknown to majority of people. And do not forget that those term were very toxic, they are misnomers, and almost slurs (like "hermaphrodite"), until recently when they were appropriated by gender ideology movement. Same with word "queer", which is still used as an offensive slur almost 100% of the time by society I am currently living in (I am temporarily returned home from Europe).

Many of languages does not even have words to say that at all. So it would be weird for someone to communicate like that, when previously "man" meant "being human male" and "woman" meant "being human female", which is still the main understanding of those words even in Anglosphere countries by casual people, who are not interested in any politics.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is complete lies. Majority of people just ARE, they are not identifying with anything and question about identity is putting them off guard, in a state of complete incomprehension or in stupor. People just don't understand what that even mean. Especially working class people - they do not have time to think about "existentional crisis" and "humanism and what it is to be human". This is mostly prerogative of privileged and/or rich people with a ton of free time, who can focus on themselves more than on trying to live and survive.

In my language (and in most languages I know, except English) there even no such word with meaning "woman gender identity", only "female human" and "female animal/mammal" ones exist, so you can't even explain to people what it means and why it is different. And everyone is saying that explanation of Stonewall as "taking gender role of woman and living as woman" - is very sexist.

Plus majority of people would be non-binary, not "cis", as they are performing both male and female traits. And if take into account GLAAD's definition, then at least half of population are trans, because GLAAD's definition relies on very American stereotypes of masculinity and femininity, while in Asia and Africa they are completely different.

So I'd say only minority of people have gender identity at all - be it cis, NB or trans.