GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (86 children)

“You heard it here first. Trans rights don’t matter because they are a minority.”

Calm the fuck down. That is not what I said and if you’re gonna quote me do it under my comment instead of sneaking it in elsewhere. What my statement means is simply that transwomen should not be able to undo other people’s (women’s/female) rights. You deserve and fucking have rights- you do not deserve the “right” to step all over the women’s rights movement for your benefit. Your rights should not infringe on another group’s rights. Stop. Putting. Words. In my mouth. Seriously was hoping you’d leave that shit on reddit. But I should’ve known better.

“I may be overreaching but this seems like transition is illegal, which is monstrous on a deep and permeating level.”

You are, as usual, overreaching. This means that if you have dysphoria- you get to transition physically. Reading comprehension is truly fundamental.

“Absolutely no recourse for people misgendering you, if being properly gendered is allowed at all.”

Yeah. You don’t get to force other people to subscribe to your belief system. How horrific 🙄 why should it be okay to punish someone for not pretending a man is a woman? Why do you get to force your beliefs on everyone else? Do we not have the right to freedom of speech? Or do we, but only as long as we speak how you want? Who the hell are you to demand that?

“I’m not even non-binary but that seems pretty awful for them.”

Every single “non-binary” person has a sex. They’d be okay. And if not, they need help.

“I would absolutely rather be dead than live un the world Sloan and catbug are pushing.”

A world that recognizes reality, allows females to have equal rights, and doesn’t force others to conform to a specific way of thinking? How awful.

“Ice, glimmer, and Omina I might live but would certainly have to give up on sobriety”

If this is your thinking sober, please don’t give up on it. I can’t imagine how badly you’d twist other people’s words if you weren’t thinking clearly.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Can you even imagine the coddled bubble one would have to have been in for decades to say that being called male is worse than being called a baby-murderer or a rapist. How detached you’d need to be from any other persons suffering to think that way?

Sometimes I wonder about the lives posters must live.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They were able to say to me that in some ways they could be seen as racist, and that it wasn’t for them to say that it wasn’t true. Yet someone saying something that is true is just the worst thing possible. The narcissism is real.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

“I’d rather be considered a racist than someone not lie to my face about what sex I am”?? That was the sentiment?

Also lmao people are allowed to perceive me as a racist but perceiving my sex is a hatecrime” is the actual silliest thing I’ve ever heard in any gc debate.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. This is def in my top 5 “wow. They really just said that” list from this sub.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

Coddled bubble for decades? Hardly. In the last decade I’ve been beaten up for being trans. Lost a job for being trans. Spent time homeless for being trans.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Is there a second of your life where you stop focusing on being trans and think that other people experience as much or even worse pain than you do upon being recognised as your actual sex, not your desired one?

That’s the bubble I’m talking about. The one where there is nothing as urgent, important, and as great a matter for public concern as someone’s trans status.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I can’t stop thinking about being trans because it defines every interaction I have. I’m afraid to go many places alone, I have to consider what will happen if I encounter anti trans sentiment every time I go somewhere new. It is the thing that determines how people treat me and see me above every other facet of me.

I’d love to not think about being trans, but that’s not ever going to be the case unfortunately.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Okay, but do you ever think about other people? Their needs? Their struggles? Their sense of safety? The ways they are discriminated against and marginalized?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Absolutely. But I expect it to go both ways.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (11 children)

If you truly expected it to go both ways you wouldn’t be fighting to compel speech and you’d leave women and our spaces alone. You don’t expect it to go both ways. You expect it to go your way. Every comment you’ve made shows this.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

For the thousandth time I’m not in any way pushing for compelled speech. I’m pushing for the right to object to being insulted. I think of a gay guy is called a faggot he should be able to object. If someone is called a racial slur they should be able to object. If a woman is called the c word or a slut they should be able to object. And if I’m called a man I should be able to object.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

“Faggot” is a slur.

“N***er” is a slur.

“Cunt”- not necessarily a slur but an offensive term.

“Man”- not a slur. In any capacity. The word man is not a slur. It means adult male human. Why should you be able to object to being called an adult male human? Particularly when you are an adult male human? How is the word “man” a slur?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds rough and that’s genuinely a shame, but can you see how it’s making it harder for you to consider anyone else’s plight when discussing safety in general?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

That is not what I said and if you’re gonna quote me do it under my comment instead of sneaking it in elsewhere. What my statement means is simply that transwomen should not be able to undo other people’s (women’s/female) rights. You deserve and fucking have rights- you do not deserve the “right” to step all over the women’s rights movement for your benefit.

I am a cis woman and trans women have not stepped over my rights.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know there are other women who disagree with you. Hence this sub, and many others. What exactly was this comment supposed to accomplish? Everyone knows you’re not gc. GC people and many others who don’t even know the terms GC/radfem vehemently disagree with you. The fact of the matter is that female rights are being infringed upon, whether you feel that way or not.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (61 children)

I didn’t really to you directly because you’ve made it perfectly clear you don’t want to have a discussion just insult me. But fine.

You deserve and fucking have rights

We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.

Stop. Putting. Words. In my mouth.

I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it. How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?

You are, as usual, overreaching. This means that if you have dysphoria- you get to transition physically. Reading comprehension is truly fundamental.

That’s not clear at all from what they wrote and the contrary is implied.

You don’t get to force other people to subscribe to your belief system.

We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse. Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.

Do we not have the right to freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech is from government action.

A world that recognizes reality, allows females to have equal rights, and doesn’t force others to conform to a specific way of thinking? How awful.

A world where I was subject to wanton discrimation, harassment, And having no recourse to stop any of it. A world where I was legally forced to call myself the most heinous thing I could be called. A world where I couldn’t go anywhere because it would be illegal to go in any public necessary space that wasn’t a deathtrap. Yeah I would rather be dead that to have to call myself a man and have to do nothing while others did not that I would see anyone because I couldn’t leave the house.

If this is your thinking sober, please don’t give up on it. I can’t imagine how badly you’d twist other people’s words if you weren’t thinking clearly.

Making fun of my sobriety is over the line.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (56 children)

“We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.”

Here we go with martyr masks. You do have rights. Why do you always act as if you don’t?

“I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it.”

You took my words and placed an entirely different meaning on them. Made them about something I wasn’t even referring to in that moment.

“How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?”

This is why reading comprehension is crucial.

Peaking- I feel like sometimes GC just looks at all trans people like crossdressers and just think that you are just wearing certain clothes and starting wearing other clothes or changed your hair people would see you as your sex again, but I don’t think it’s that simple for everyone

Sloane- The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld

You- sLoaNe dOesN’t wAnT uS to HaVe rIgHtS BeCauSe wE’rE jUsT A mInoRiTy (even though I’m considered a fucking minority in multiple ways 🙄)

We weren’t talking about rights- yes I referenced them, I also clarified to you what I meant by referencing them. The “not that simple” is about it not being so simple to go back- never said people had to detransition, said of things aren’t “so simple” I don’t care- I care about the rights of half the world over the complications that males not being able to undermine them may face. Doesn’t mean you don’t get to have rights- means you don’t get to erase mine.

“That’s not clear at all from what they wrote and the contrary is implied.”

Yet another reason that reading comprehension skills are extremely important. But I think you do understand and your need to present as the victim made you pretend you didn’t. Since you quoted them saying that dysphoric individuals get the treatment to alleviate their symptoms (that’s literally all you quoted from there- like, come on). The only thing is that others aren’t obligated to play a part in it.

“We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse.”

No. You wouldn’t. Being called pronouns that are factual is not harassment. Not pretending we think sex can change or males can be women is not harassment. You used to be a lawyer, you should know this. Compelling speech may not be harassment- it’s not okay to do. And that’s what you push for. But I’m wrong?

“Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.”

I’d say then that individuals who can’t handle being referred to with biologically accurate terms should receive counseling and be advised on how to cope with that difficulty. You don’t get to force people to play along. Others feel just as strongly about not playing along as you do about forcing them to. Every reason you have for justifying forcing it, we have for justifying being allowed to speak honestly.

“Freedom of speech is from government action.”

So... do you respect people having the right to speak as they wish or not? I know what freedom of speech is.

“A world where I was subject to wanton discrimation, harassment, And having no recourse to stop any of it.”

Do you honestly not understand that other people (non trans) also have this issue? Also- if you need the whole world to gaslight themselves and lie to you daily to be okay(those other people I mentioned don’t expect or demand tho and still have this same issue btw)- do you really think that’s reasonable?

“A world where I was legally forced to call myself the most heinous thing I could be called.”

you think being called a male/man is more heinous than being called a murderer? A pedophile? A rapist? A racist? An idiot? Any of the many slurs and offensive terms that people call each other? Seriously? Fucking seriously? (And no I’m not calling you these things, these are examples of actual heinous or cruel things people can be called)

“A world where I couldn’t go anywhere because it would be illegal to go in any public necessary space that wasn’t a deathtrap.”

No. Just no. Allowing females to have safe spaces doesn’t make all necessary public spaces a death trap. Please stop trying to guilt trip women into sacrificing their rights for you.

“Yeah I would rather be dead that to have to call myself a man and have to do nothing while others did”

Then call yourself a transwoman. Most people would also. No one said the term “transwoman” would be erased (I even clarified that. Funny how you left that part out).

“not that I would see anyone because I couldn’t leave the house.”

That’s your personal choice. Idgaf.

“Making fun of my sobriety is over the line”

Undermining my rights is over the line. Compelling my speech is over the line. Misrepresentation to get your way is over the line.

You sure you wanna open this door and talk about one of us crossing a line? Because I can recall many a time when you crossed several lines.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

You do have rights. Why do you always act as if you don’t?

Because we don’t. We have tenuous employment protections finally but those will be overturned any time once trump gives the conservatives on the bench a 6-3 now that Ginsburg is gone. We have no other applications of the civil rights act formally applied. By executive order we can be denied even emergency medical care simply for being trans. We have no housing discrimination rights. If I were arrested tomorrow I would be put in a men’s lockup and I could ask for but had no garuantee of solitary confinement as the only protective option. I don’t know what rights you think trans people have, but we have basically no protections of any kind.

The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld

I don’t care- I care about the rights of half the world over the complications that males not being able to undermine them may face.

That’s you saying your rights are more important. Expressly. How can you argue otherwise?

Since you quoted them saying that dysphoric individuals get the treatment to alleviate their symptoms (that’s literally all you quoted from there- like, come on). The only thing is that others aren’t obligated to play a part in it.

And that could easily be read as psychiatric care with no transition. They’ve clarified it’s not the case at this point but the statement sounded like an innuendo for the Typical “therapy not hormones” line that comes through here. I was mistaken.

No. You wouldn’t. Being called pronouns that are factual is not harassment. Not pretending we think sex can change or males can be women is not harassment.

Yes it is. Harassment doesn’t need to be sexual. Calling me a manly man every time you see me and seeing out excuses to call me a man when you know it makes me deeply uncomfortable is in fact workplace harassment and as they’ve laid out there would be nothing I could do about it but quit and hope I could find another job where I wasn’t harassed,

I’d say then that individuals who can’t handle being referred to with biologically accurate terms should receive counseling and be advised on how to cope with that difficulty. You don’t get to force people to play along. Others feel just as strongly about not playing along as you do about forcing them to. Every reason you have for justifying forcing it, we have for justifying being allowed to speak honestly.

And neutral address or asking that we be separated and not forced to interact to hr should be something I can ask for. The system they laid out wouldn’t allow that.

So... do you respect people having the right to speak as they wish or not? I know what freedom of speech is.

I’m not saying it should be illegal to misgender but I also don’t want it to be speech protected from Private employer action in The workplace.

Do you honestly not understand that other people (non trans) also have this issue?

Our society has generally given those people legal recourse. Sometimes it’s less effective than ideal but they at least can try. We wouldn’t in the system they laid out.

you think being called a male/man is more heinous than being called a murderer? A pedophile? A rapist? A racist? An idiot? Any of the many slurs and offensive terms that people call each other? Seriously? Fucking seriously?

No one could believe I was a pedophile, rapist or murderer. I’ve factually never done those things. If they accused me of that and it caused harm I’d have access to a slander claim to sue.

I would find being called a man more insulting than being called an idiot.

Racist is tricky because I probably do have some racist beliefs somewhere since I’m white and raised in this society. Like I tend to find light skinned black men more attractive than any other men which could be considered fetishizing. On that level am I a racist? I don’t know. I hope not but that’s not really up to me to decide.

No. Just no. Allowing females to have safe spaces doesn’t make all necessary public spaces a death trap. Please stop trying to guilt trip women into sacrificing their rights for you.

I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely. That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.

Undermining my rights is over the line. Compelling my speech is over the line. Misrepresentation to get your way is over the line.

I’m not undermining your rights or misrepresenting you. And I’ve made clear I’m not advocating for compelled speech.

You want to come at my arguments be my guest but it is every kind of inappropriate to mock someone’s sobriety.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely. That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.

If you go into the women's room, since women are the oppressed sex category and mixed-sex spaces effectively become "male" dominated because of the power dynamics between male and female people, you would be turning that restroom into a male restroom by default.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Except men wouldn’t go in.

[–]IceColdLover 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You have to understand when I say "men" I mean all biological males, whether they identify as men or not. I will call you, if I see you in person by what you ask me to call you because you have had the systematic power to ensure I must otherwise my life becomes hell on earth if I don't. All males have privilege over females by virtue of being born male in a society that privileges maleness.

I am fine with calling you a transwoman, if you really do not want to be referred to as a man, since you are a transwoman, but to me you'll never be just a woman.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

We don’t have any systemic power. At best we’ve fostered enough sympathy that people feel bad enough to generally support us but it isn’t about power. Because that could change in sympathies of the people who have power.

There is nothing I consider more an insult than being called a man. I don’t mind being called trans women generally but Espescially since I don’t pass do stealth isn’t an option but I do consider myself a woman.

[–]IceColdLover 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We don’t have any systemic power. At best we’ve fostered enough sympathy that people feel bad enough to generally support us but it isn’t about power. Because that could change in sympathies of the people who have power.

You have fostered enough sympathy amongst people with systematic power, but the impact of this is that it is being forced from the top down on everyone else. What this means is that the VAST majority of women, and men for that matter do not consider you a woman in any meaningful way but are being forced to say they do because of threat to their livelihood. I was about to ask if this makes you feel wrong in any way for suppressing others' speech and forcing them to lie but then I realized of course not.

There is nothing I consider more an insult than being called a man.

If that is the worst thing someone could call you then what you really need isn't estrogen, it is therapy. I would suspect that men have mistreated you in ways that have traumatized you and you need closure, or there is something else going on mentally. I am saying this out of compassion.

I would call you a trans woman, not a woman. If that isn't good enough for trans women in general well it's the most I am willing to bend.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

What this means is that the VAST majority of women, and men for that matter do not consider you a woman in any meaningful way but are being forced to say they do because of threat to their livelihood.

I don’t think that’s true. The majority of people are okay with us. Though a substantial minority aren’t. Hence the need for protections.

If that is the worst thing someone could call you then what you really need isn't estrogen, it is therapy.

Where do you all get the idea that we don’t get therapy before and during transition?

I would suspect that men have mistreated you in ways that have traumatized you

I mean you aren’t wrong but that’s not surprising. Because men are as a group evil. There’s a reason I can never be comfortable alone with a cis man.

I don’t mind being called a trans woman as long as the implication isn’t that I’m a man.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

“That’s you saying your rights are more important. Expressly. How can you argue otherwise?”

Jesus fucking christ why do you always ignore what I’m saying so you can make these bullshit claims. I literally said, multiple times, that what I said doesn’t mean you don’t get rights — IT MEANS YOU DONT GET TO ERASE MINE IN ORDER TO OBTAIN YOURS that’s it. That’s all it means. It means you don’t get to shit allover female rights to obtain your rights. Full stop. What the fuck is so hard for you to understand? Is it that female rights matter? Because frankly it sounds like that’s what you think.

“And that could easily be read as psychiatric care with no transition. They’ve clarified it’s not the case at this point but the statement sounded like an innuendo for the Typical “therapy not hormones” line that comes through here. I was mistaken.”

Like I said- reading comprehension. You read to panic and complain. You read to self victimize. Never to understand.

“Yes it is.”

No the fuck it’s not.

“Harassment doesn’t need to be sexual. “

I’m well aware.

“Calling me a manly man every time you see me and seeing out excuses to call me a man when you know it makes me deeply uncomfortable is in fact workplace harassment and as they’ve laid out there would be nothing I could do about it but quit and hope I could find another job where I wasn’t harassed,”

Didn’t say calling you a manly name, you legally change your name- that’s your fucking name. Didn’t say make excuses to call you a man, if they refer to you with biologically correct terms, even if it upsets your hypersensitive self, it is not harassment. People don’t even refer to each other with sexed terms in person, you’d be called you. So if you mean to police language when nobody is even talking to you that’s pretty shitty. There’s a difference between someone actively taunting you and just refusing to placate you. The latter is not harassment. Get the fuck over yourself.

“And neutral address or asking that we be separated and not forced to interact to hr should be something I can ask for.”

Then ask for it? You can open your mouth and ask someone to call you whatever the fuck you want? You just don’t get to force them to lie. You’re really saying that if someone chooses to speak honestly, even if they are respectful and not taunting you, only using the language that makes them feel comfortable and safe, that you’d go to HR and complain? So you’d force people to speak in a matter that goes against their beliefs. That’s... 🙄

“I’m not saying it should be illegal to misgender but I also don’t want it to be speech protected from Private employer action in The workplace.”

So no- you don’t respect people having the right to speak as they wish. Thanks for finally answering a question I ask you.

“Our society has generally given those people legal recourse. Sometimes it’s less effective than ideal but they at least can try.”

It’s most often ineffective. That’s my point. People can do something after discrimination- can’t do much if anything to prevent it.

“We wouldn’t in the system they laid out.”

You would, just not for the reason you want.

“No one could believe I was a pedophile, rapist or murderer.”

You don’t know that. I also didn’t ask if they’d believe it- I asked if it would be worse to be called those things.

“I’ve factually never done those things.”

Doesn’t mean people can’t call you that. You’ve never been a woman and people call you that.

“If they accused me of that and it caused harm I’d have access to a slander claim to sue.”

What kind of harm? Just hurting your feelings? Or actual repercussions?

“I would find being called a man more insulting than being called an idiot.”

But the other names would be worse?

“Racist is tricky because I probably do have some racist beliefs somewhere since I’m white and raised in this society.”

Love how you can admit to this bias, but not the bias of your sex. That’s so... nevermind. I’d get banned from the sub for elaborating.

“Like I tend to find light skinned black men more attractive than any other men which could be considered fetishizing.”

...not touching this lol

“On that level am I a racist? I don’t know. I hope not but that’s not really up to me to decide.”

But what happens to female rights and spaces is up to you to decide? The language that other people get to use is up to you to decide? I could keep going, but I’m sure someone will get my point here. I know it won’t be you.

“I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely.”

What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe?

That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.”

What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe?

“I’m not undermining your rights”

Yes you are. I’m a female so there’s those rights, you’re also forcing my speech, forcing me to pretend I believe in your ideology.

“or misrepresenting you.”

Didn’t say misrepresenting me. There’s no part of me that you could possibly represent. We have absolutely no groups in common.

“You want to come at my arguments be my guest but it is every kind of inappropriate to mock someone’s sobriety”

Was supporting your sobriety and encouraging you to keep at it. But also- is me using words you don’t like interfering with your safety and your rights? Is my implication that a not sober masks would misconstrue more peoples words somehow causing you real harm or making you unsafe- or did it just upset you? Again- not expecting you to get my point, but I know others will. You apologize for invading female spaces and compelling speech, I’ll apologize for this.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

“And neutral address or asking that we be separated and not forced to interact to hr should be something I can ask for.”

My point is as laid out the answer is no and there’s nothing I can do about it but be insulted by a coworker or quit.

You’re really saying that if someone chooses to speak honestly, even if they are respectful and not taunting you, only using the language that makes them feel comfortable and safe, that you’d go to HR and complain?

You can’t be respectful and not taunting me and call me a man. It’s not possible. They should be free to not talk to me or just use my name. They don’t have to call me a woman but i can’t work with someone who calls me a man.

“I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely.” What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe? That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.” What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe?

You are the one asserting I wouldn’t somehow be barred from participation in public life by being banned from women’s restrooms. My point was banning is from women’s rooms bans us from public life. You assert it doesn’t. Feel free to explain how you think you can got through life without access to a bathroom.

This is clearly pointless because you’ve accused me of compelling speech neumerous times despite the fact that I’ve repeatedly clarified that I don’t actively want people compelled to call me anything, just that they not call me a man. That can be neutral address or just leaving me alone. That’s not compelling anything.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

“You can’t be respectful and not taunting me and call me a man. It’s not possible.”

You can’t be respectful and not taunting me if you demand that I use language that makes me uncomfortable. It’s not possible.

You can’t be respectful of females and undermine their rights. It’s just not possible.

“They should be free to not talk to me or just use my name.They don’t have to call me a woman but i can’t work with someone who calls me a man.”

I literally said they’d use your name. I also said that they’d call you a transwoman.

“You are the one asserting I wouldn’t somehow be barred from participation in public life by being banned from women’s restrooms.”

Can you please explain how women having their safe spaces bars you from public life? Can you please explain how you not having a place you feel safe justifies you taking a safe space from a protected class?

“My point was banning is from women’s rooms bans us from public life.”

How?

“You assert it doesn’t. Feel free to explain how you think you can got through life without access to a bathroom.”

Youd have access to bathrooms, just not the women’s. If you choose not to use the restroom available to you- for whatever reasons- that’s your choice. Why do you think it’s right for you to invade someone else’s safe space? Why do you think it is right to take away safe spaces from girls and women?

“This is clearly pointless because you’ve accused me of compelling speech neumerous times despite the fact that I’ve repeatedly clarified that I don’t actively want people compelled to call me anything, just that they not call me a man. That can be neutral address or just leaving me alone. That’s not compelling anything.”

I used to read the old sub’s comments to my husband. He used to say that if we played the masks/void’s “Don’t Call Me a Man” drinking game we’d get alcohol poisoning. That’s how frequently you demand compelled speech.

I’m not the only one accusing you of compelling speech, I’ve seen a few others do the same. Yet I’m the only one you’re calling out for it. But you are- even if it’s just saying they can’t or shouldn’t call you a man- thats compelling speech. You’re telling people what not to say, even if there’s an understandable reason for why they’d use that language. I also said I have no problem with neutral language, and absolutely no problem with people leaving you alone.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

You can’t be respectful and not taunting me if you demand that I use language that makes me uncomfortable. It’s not possible.

You can use they/them, my name, or simply not refer to me. You don’t have to say anything.

Can you please explain how women having their safe spaces bars you from public life? Can you please explain how you not having a place you feel safe justifies you taking a safe space from a protected class? “My point was banning is from women’s rooms bans us from public life.” How?

There are two bathrooms. One is illegal to enter one is at best a panic attack and also very likely a beating. That’s the same as having no bathrooms which means we can’t participate in public life.

Why do you think it’s right for you to invade someone else’s safe space? Why do you think it is right to take away safe spaces from girls and women?

I’ll happily use neutral rooms when available. But they basically don’t exist most places or are reserved for families with children. That means the options are the women’s room where I know no one will be harmed by me or the men’s room where I would very likely be harmed. You would ask that I choose the option with the greater chance of harm.

Youd have access to bathrooms, just not the women’s. If you choose not to use the restroom available to you- for whatever reasons- that’s your choice.

Not being allowed somewhere because you will be beaten up isn’t a free choice not to enter.

I used to read the old sub’s comments to my husband. He used to say that if we played the masks/void’s “Don’t Call Me a Man” drinking game we’d get alcohol poisoning. That’s how frequently you demand compelled speech.

That’s not compelled speech. Compelled speech would be asking for you to be required to call me a woman. I’m saying I should have recourse to prevent people from calling me an insult. That’s not compelling speech it’s restricting fighting words, at worst. Which isn’t compelled speech.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

“You can use they/them, my name, or simply not refer to me. You don’t have to say anything.”

I know. And I agree. But what I’m saying is that you telling people what they can’t say is still compelled speech.

“There are two bathrooms. One is illegal to enter one is at best a panic attack and also very likely a beating. That’s the same as having no bathrooms which means we can’t participate in public life.”

Oh! I’m sorry. I didn’t understand that public life was solely about everyone going around peeing in bathrooms. I thought public life was going shopping, going out to eat, hiking, you know- like being in public places. I’ve been living publicly incorrectly for so long! Here I am getting food, exercising, going to the movies, stuff like that, when really I should’ve just been spending my time out of my home solely focused on peeing in the women’s room.

“I’ll happily use neutral rooms when available. But they basically don’t exist most places or are reserved for families with children. That means the options are the women’s room”

So you do believe that it’s fair to rob females of their safe space. At least you finally admit it.

“where I know no one will be harmed by me”

Not the point.

“or the men’s room where I would very likely be harmed. You would ask that I choose the option with the greater chance of harm.”

No. I ask that you respect females enough to not invade their spaces.

“Not being allowed somewhere because you will be beaten up isn’t a free choice not to enter.”

You’re not being allowed to invade spaces that were literally meant to keep you out. Just say you don’t give a fuck about female rights. This skirting the issue stuff you do had got to be exhausting.

“That’s not compelled speech. Compelled speech would be asking for you to be required to call me a woman.”

You’re still telling people what to say by telling them what not to say.

“I’m saying I should have recourse to prevent people from calling me an insult.”

I agree. You should have recourse to prevent people from calling you an insult. The word man is not an insult just because you don’t like it personally.

“That’s not compelling speech it’s restricting fighting words, at worst. Which isn’t compelled speech.”

Lmao sure buddy

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

. I thought public life was going shopping, going out to eat, hiking, you know- like being in public places.

Shopping away from close shops or for more than a few minutes requires a bathroom.

Going out to eat requires a bathroom.

Here I am getting food, exercising, going to the movies, s

Restaraunts require a bathroom. As fo movies. I have to use a bathroom at the gym since powerlifting can cause bladder failure if you aren’t careful.

All those require a bathroom.

No. I ask that you respect females enough to not invade their spaces.

Knowing that this is the option more likely to lead to someone getting hurt.

I only use women’s restrooms when there isn’t another option. I don’t use the locker room at the gym since I can change and shower elsewhere, just the bathroom. I always use a neutral option when there is one. I don’t actually like making people uncomfortable but I also don’t want to get beaten up and that’s the choice I have.

The word man is not an insult just because you don’t like it personally

It’s an insult because it’s always an insult to call trans women men. Not because of my personal objections.

[–]just_lesbian_things 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

If I were arrested tomorrow I would be put in a men’s lockup and I could ask for but had no garuantee of solitary confinement as the only protective option.

You and any other men. Are all men being denied rights if they get put in men's lockup upon being arrested?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

The point is I would certainly be victimized and there are no protections in place. Despite the fact it’s cruel and unusual punishment to allow sexual assault of prisoners. Trans people are uniquely vulnerable.

[–]just_lesbian_things 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Despite the fact it’s cruel and unusual punishment to allow sexual assault of prisoners

Yeah it really sucks that men keep doing that to each other. Maybe you should reach out to other men and see if you can't get a movement going where men agree to not rape each other.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Really going to make light of prison abuse of trans women?

[–]just_lesbian_things 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

No, I'm equally concerned about prison abuse of any man, regardless of how they identify.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Maybe you should reach out to other men and see if you can't get a movement going where men agree to not rape each other.

You can’t pretend that isn’t a joke.

Prison rape is a horrific abuse and a real problem even for cis men.

Trans women are just uniquely vulnerable.

[–]IceColdLover 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.

Clearly, trans people (mostly trans women but not exclusively) have had the ability to redefine gender and sex, force other people to pretend to agree with and parrot their views under the threat of unemployment and physical violence, hijack entire social and political movements such as BLM and center themselves in nearly everything, and wreak havoc against those who refuse, does this sound like something that a truly oppressed group of people could accomplish?

I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it. How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?

Right now we have the opposite: the rights of 0.6% of the population are being prioritized over 50% of the population. Why is that fair to you but not the reverse?

We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse. Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.

So do women every day of our lives. Find someone else to feel sorry for you because at this point it's not going to be me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Clearly, trans people (mostly trans women but not exclusively) have had the ability to redefine gender and sex, force other people to pretend to agree with and parrot their views under the threat of unemployment and physical violence, hijack entire social and political movements such as BLM and center themselves in nearly everything, and wreak havoc against those who refuse, does this sound like something that a truly oppressed group of people could accomplish?

Social acceptance isn’t rights. I’m America the only national protection trans people have the the tenuous employment protections we got this year via Supreme Court decision.

Right now we have the opposite: the rights of 0.6% of the population are being prioritized over 50% of the population. Why is that fair to you but not the reverse?

Trans rights don’t interfere with women’s rights. So it wouldn’t be right but also the conflict is illusory.

So do women every day of our lives. Find someone else to feel sorry for you because at this point it's not going to be me.

You have recourse. That’s my point. If you are harassed at work you can sue. We couldn’t under the proposed system.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Social acceptance isn’t rights. I’m America the only national protection trans people have the the tenuous employment protections we got this year via Supreme Court decision.

It's not a matter of social acceptance. Socially you're not accepted as a woman. I can promise you that what I and other GC women are saying is how the vast majority of women would feel if surveyed completely anonymously on the subject with the reassurance that whatever they said would never be held against them. Only because of the threat of unemployment, violence, rape threats and death threats are people "accepting" you as a woman, which is not acceptance but coercion.

Trans rights don’t interfere with women’s rights. So it wouldn’t be right but also the conflict is illusory.

This is not true. When women are forced to not use certain words and phrases because it offends trans sensibilities, that is an infringement on our rights. When women have to jump through hoops to challenge predatory males' presence in our spaces (and I do not mean most trans women) that is an infringement on our rights. When women are being pushed out of the spaces we created for our own protection by males who identify as women, that is an infringement on our rights.

You have recourse. That’s my point. If you are harassed at work you can sue. We couldn’t under the proposed system.

If I was harassed at work by a trans woman and I reported it, I would likely be accused of being transphobic because I am seen as lower on the oppression totem pole.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not a matter of social acceptance. Socially you're not accepted as a woman. I can promise you that what I and other GC women are saying is how the vast majority of women would feel if surveyed completely anonymously on the subject with the reassurance that whatever they said would never be held against them.

I think you are wrong. And if I agreed with you I would definitely have offed myself rather than transition.

This is not true. When women are forced to not use certain words and phrases because it offends trans sensibilities, that is an infringement on our rights. When women have to jump through hoops to challenge predatory males' presence in our spaces (and I do not mean most trans women) that is an infringement on our rights. When women are being pushed out of the spaces we created for our own protection by males who identify as women, that is an infringement on our rights.

I’m talking about legal rights.

If I was harassed at work by a trans woman and I reported it, I would likely be accused of being transphobic because I am seen as lower on the oppression totem pole.

Again I’m talking about legal rights. Whether someone thinks you are being a bully doesn’t mean you still can’t sue over harassment.