GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

Let’s say that it’s just the issues that GC has with transgender ideology and not like achieving total gender abolition, since that seems way harder. I agree with most of GC’s ideas, but this is something I wonder about and it doesn’t seem to be addressed explicitly. Transsexuals, at least, won’t magically disappear. What would change for us? Are we expected to be something else or starting telling people we are our natal sex? I feel like sometimes GC just looks at all trans people like crossdressers and just think that you are just wearing certain clothes and starting wearing other clothes or changed your hair people would see you as your sex again, but I don’t think it’s that simple for everyone. Past a certain point, you’d be asking people to undergo serious medical treatment to be able to look like their birth sex again. Maybe I’m crazy to think about that and it doesn’t matter to GC, but if it doesn’t, what is expected?, because I feel like you aren’t happy with natal males being read as women or natal females being read as men.

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

If it were up to me, they would keep existing as they are now, the only difference would be that they would be listed as their biological sex in legal documents. At most as people of their sex presenting as the other sex (but still not considered legally part of their preferred sex/gender). I don' t really care much if trans people inform any person they meet of their status, all I care about is that they are not legally listed as their preferred sex and that they inform sexual partners of it: not disclosing would be considered rape by deception.

I also don' t care if trans people are read as their preferred sex or if other people decide to follow their requests and call them their preferred pronouns/labels: in short, I don' t care if you call yourself a woman and your husband calls you his wife, I don' t care if you tell everyone that you are in a heterosexual relationship, and I don' t care if your family and friends, or even colleagues or random people on the street call you a woman. What I care about is that, legally, you aren' t recognized as a woman. Male who presents as a woman (or whatever other euphemism that means that)? Sure. Woman? No.

This obviously has consequences in the real world, which would be addressed. Like sex segreated spaces: there would be co-ed or even trans-exclusive/neutral spaces. Sports leagues? Same. Sex segregated positions? Same.

People would be able to choose whether to call trans people their preferred pronouns/labels without fear of repercussions.

As for medical transition, I don' t know which is best between allowing everyone who wants it to get it as a cosmetic surgery, or make it something that can only be given to someone after psychological evaluation. I think I am leaning on the former more than the latter, but anyway I wouldn' t ban it. Except for children: absolutely NO medical transition for anyone under 18.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with everything you have said here.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I appreciate that most things wouldn’t have to change. The lack of legal sex change makes me nervous just because of outing and potentially being discriminated against. I understand it is a legal fiction though. It makes sense to me that GC is not comfortable with that since it could be abused so many ways and isn’t reality. I wish there was a way to take it off most forms of ID or only have it visible when there is a reason to know. I don’t mind if there is a something that says I’m male (because I am), but I do worry about moving through the world.

People would be able to choose whether to call trans people their preferred pronouns/labels without fear of repercussions.

That makes sense. I feel like it’s wrong to pressure someone to use gender pronouns if they aren’t comfortable with that. I feel like most people would still use preferred pronouns if they read the person as that sex because it takes effort not too.

As for medical transition, I don' t know which is best between allowing everyone who wants it to get it as a cosmetic surgery, or make it something that can only be given to someone after psychological evaluation. I think I am leaning on the former more than the latter, but anyway I wouldn' t ban it. Except for children: absolutely NO medical transition for anyone under 18.

This one I disagree on. I feel like there should be gatekeeping and it should be treated like a medical issue and move very slowly to make sure there aren’t other options. I go back and forth on children because I was able to do some things before I was 18, but after I’d been though lots of therapy so it’s hard for me to feel like it’s always bad, but I think it should at least be mid teens and only if it been an issue someone has struggled with openly since before puberty (that’s super important so it’s not sexual I feel like).

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The lack of legal sex change makes me nervous just because of outing and potentially being discriminated against. I understand it is a legal fiction though. It makes sense to me that GC is not comfortable with that since it could be abused so many ways and isn’t reality. I wish there was a way to take it off most forms of ID or only have it visible when there is a reason to know. I don’t mind if there is a something that says I’m male (because I am), but I do worry about moving through the world.

Keep in mind that there would be more protections for trans people: I would immediately make it clear that discrimination in housing, healthcare and jobs would be unacceptable. That said, those things aren' t exactly perfect even now for other categories, so the risk would always be present. But you are right that I am talking from a GC position: it makes no sense for a GCer to accept that sex markers would be based on presentation or gender identity.

That makes sense. I feel like it’s wrong to pressure someone to use gender pronouns if they aren’t comfortable with that. I feel like most people would still use preferred pronouns if they read the person as that sex because it takes effort not too.

Maybe, I don' t know. I would probably use preferred pronouns too if things weren' t so crazy. It is an ideological issue I have because it is used against us, if things were clear that trans people are not their preferred categories, I probably wouldn' t care as much about how important the meaning of words is. But as it is now, I think that we need to make things clear.

I see the point you are making about transition, I don' t necessarily disagree with it, but as I said in another comment my kind of gatekeeping would make it basically impossible for anyone to transition. I have several problems with it being considered a cure for a psychological problem, among them the fact that physical surgery would only be limited to people with body dysphoria alone because I don' t think a social problem should be treated with surgery. Secondly I would need an objective diagnosis, which would be kind of impossible to get.

That' s why I would prefer if it were considered cosmetic surgery: everyone would have the possibility to get it. On the other hand, you are right that it would open the gates for people getting it for all the wrong reasons. But any other kind of cosmetic surgery works that way. That' s also why I said I don' t know which option is better.

I wouldn' t ban it, but I think that the gatekeeping we have now is stupid and regressive and the kind that would be perfect for me would virtually make it impossible for anyone to transition. Problem is, this isn' t something we can get neutral gatekeeping on because the need for it is completely subjective. You can' t really have someone objectively declaring that you need to transition, it all comes from your feelings. Maybe before doing it it should be required to follow some kind of course? So that every possible option could be discussed and valued? I don' t know.

I honestly think that considering it a cosmetic procedure would make it less "exciting" for many people who shouldn' t get the surgery to begin with. As for people who get it and regret it... that' s something that is a risk for every cosmetic surgery unfortunately. It' s a black/white situation about body autonomy: I am all for body autonomy, so I think that whatever you want to do to yourself, you should be able to. This isn' t different, despite the fact that I am not the biggest fan of it. Granted, I am not the biggest fan of any cosmetic surgery. But still, I wouldn' t require a psychological evaluation/attending a course for a woman who wants a boob job, so... that' s kind of the dilemma.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Keep in mind that there would be more protections for trans people: I would immediately make it clear that discrimination in housing, healthcare and jobs would be unacceptable. That said, those things aren' t exactly perfect even now for other categories, so the risk would always be present.

More protections would definitely help. I’m not sure if soft discrimination wouldn’t still occur though, like you said, it wouldn’t be perfect. I feel like a lot of employers might just feel like it was easier to pass on someone who was trans and it would be difficult to prove that was the reason.

but as I said in another comment my kind of gatekeeping would make it basically impossible for anyone to transition. I have several problems with it being considered a cure for a psychological problem, among them the fact that physical surgery would only be limited to people with body dysphoria alone because I don' t think a social problem should be treated with surgery. Secondly I would need an objective diagnosis, which would be kind of impossible to get.

Okay, that makes sense! I wouldn’t want a situation where no one ever could. I agree that is weird to address a mental health problem with surgery, but I feel like there are some of us who genuinely need it to be able to function (probably much, much fewer than identify as trans currently though). Totally objective diagnosis is difficult because so much of it is subjective unless doctors find it in the brain or something (plus people would probably not accept it if they were told that didn’t actually have whatever it was), but I feel they can rule out other things that might be causing it or sexual motivations. I worry about people like me (because it did happen to me) being grouped with predatory trans people in support spaces and if there isn’t gatekeeping I feel like that will happen even more.

I honestly think that considering it a cosmetic procedure would make it less "exciting" for many people who shouldn' t get the surgery to begin with.

I hadn’t thought about this. It definitely seems like a benefit.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

More protections would definitely help. I’m not sure if soft discrimination wouldn’t still occur though, like you said, it wouldn’t be perfect. I feel like a lot of employers might just feel like it was easier to pass on someone who was trans and it would be difficult to prove that was the reason.

That' s unfortunately something that happens for everyone, not just trans people. I guess this is something that would probably benefit more the ones already in the job/house than people who are looking. In the sense that if you are living somewhere, come out and they kick you out despite never bringing problems, that would probably be something that could be fought and won. Or if you have always done your job, come out and then fired.

It' s the same with women: in my country, they can' t fire you if you get pregnant, but they can refuse to hire you if you are a woman because "what if she gets pregnant?".

Unfortunately, we can' t really read people' s minds when it comes to these things.

but I feel like there are some of us who genuinely need it to be able to function (probably much, much fewer than identify as trans currently though)

I don' t doubt it, that' s why I don' t want to ban it. I don' t think it' s my place to say whether someone should get surgery or not. It' s their business in the end, and if it really makes them feel better, good for them.

I just think that if gatekeeping needs to be a thing, then it should be done seriously and as objectively as possible. But the way it is now it' s tragic: the stuff you find in the DMS is laughable at best. Most of the points they use to diagnose dysphoria are plain and simple stereotypes (like children wanting to play with toys associated to the other sex). That needs to go, I don' t think it' s beneficial for anyone, "cis" or trans.

Problem is, how can you make it objective? Or as close as objective as possible? If it' s supposed to come after a medical diagnosis, what is the thing that the diagnosis should be based on? I think in the end, everything boils down to what the trans person wants. And if that is what the most important thing is, then why telling a person that their reasons are valid and another that their reasons aren' t. Like, yes, I get it that a person who would be suicidal if not allowed to transition is not the same as one who wants to do it because of sexual arousal. But who am I to tell them that one can do it and another cannot? I think the best thing to do would be to go for a case by case basis and, when we are talking about support groups, try to keep in mind the background of everyone so that someone like you doesn' t end up with someone like Jessica Yaniv.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I just think that if gatekeeping needs to be a thing, then it should be done seriously and as objectively as possible. But the way it is now it' s tragic: the stuff you find in the DMS is laughable at best. Most of the points they use to diagnose dysphoria are plain and simple stereotypes (like children wanting to play with toys associated to the other sex). That needs to go, I don' t think it' s beneficial for anyone, "cis" or trans.

I almost feel like in order to really have it be unbiased we’d almost have to get to gender abolition. It’s hard to not making femininity or masculinity a part of it at all because those things occur together so much especially in younger trans people. I know from my own gatekeeping experiences that the fact I was feminine and could pass without much effort made gatekeepers much more agreeable to approving medical intervention. Me wanting to be a girl intuitively made sense to them I feel like. I’m 100% sure that I would have been treated differently if I had been more masculine physically, or taller, or behaved less stereotypically feminine even if I was just as dysphoric. I guess it also gets into questions about whether gatekeepers should evaluate what your quality of life would be if you transition. Maybe it would be possible to train gatekeepers to be more gender critical, but it’s hard to imagine it wouldn’t influence their decisions at all.

when we are talking about support groups, try to keep in mind the background of everyone so that someone like you doesn' t end up with someone like Jessica Yaniv.

I think separate different types of trans people might help even if it’s invalidating to some. Also, I feel like if we were taught we needed to keep our guard up the same way it is around men that would help. I think it’s a problem that all trans experience get reduced to one thing so your supposed to be able to relate to them and their supposed to be like you and that makes it where you don’t understand they might not be safe.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, as long as gender exists, bias will be present. Without gender only the ones with body dysphoria would be interested in transition to begin with.

I am not sure about the evaluation of the quality of your life after transition: it is a good idea in theory, but in the end I think that what is more important is simply be honest with the person who seeks the treatment. The gatekeepers don' t necessarily have to be GC, that would be bias in the other sense and I don' t think it would be objective either. They just have to be frankly blunt about what the person is about to face in the most neutral way possible.

I strongly believe that adults should be allowed to do whatever they want to themselves, and that, unfortunately, includes things that could be dangerous. But I can' t help but find it incredibly irritating to decide something about your own body and then have a bunch of people you don' t know telling you that for your own good it would be better to not do it. Especially if they hold power over you (aka, they can legally stop you from doing it). It' s the same for things like hysterectomies, and I am not a fan of voluntary hysterectomies (the ones that are done not because the patients need them but because the patients want them) either.

In general, I think that people should accept the consequences of their own actions: if you are not forced to do something, you were given all the possible informations against it, you weren' t encouraged to do it but left to your own opinions and after doing it you regret it... you should accept that you made a mistake and that it was your own decision. And then try to adjust to your new situation.

Things aren' t like that at the moment, though: it' s way too common to hear that trans people thought that their life was going to be fabolous after the surgery because everyone, doctors included, told them as such, and when reality bites in they realize that they were lied to. With a better medical iter this wouldn' t happen. I think it would help both the patients and the doctors. As it is now, I hope many trans people and many detransitioners sue the hell out of them and win. I work in medical care, and the way these doctors are acting, minimizing the risks and the success and treating surgery (not just the transition type, but in general any kind of cosmetic surgery) as not that big of a deal is disgusting. It' s shameful that these doctors and medical professionists are sacrificing ethics and the only thing you should have in your mind (the well-being of your patient) in order to get money and/or headpats. I don' t excuse the ones who do it out of fear of being cancelled/fired either: cosmetic surgery doesn' t work in the same way as life-saving surgery, doctors in that branch can refuse a patient (Hell, doctors in life-saving surgeries fields can refuse patients for ethical reasons, the ones who work in cosmetic surgery can do it with even fewer issues), so if they do it despite not thinking it' s the best thing to do, they are jerks.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful response! I feel like you may just be more distrusting of gatekeeping in general than I am.

It' s the same for things like hysterectomies, and I am not a fan of voluntary hysterectomies (the ones that are done not because the patients need them but because the patients want them) either.

I’m like very pro-reproductive rights and I feel like women should be able to make those choices no questions asked. I guess I usually feel differently about transition surgeries because, at least how things where when I transition, those things would give you the ability to change documents. I just don’t want people who aren’t safe to be in women’s spaces. Maybe I should rethink if it wouldn’t affect that, but I did mention worrying about support spaces a little.

Things aren' t like that at the moment, though: it' s way too common to hear that trans people thought that their life was going to be fabolous after the surgery because everyone, doctors included, told them as such, and when reality bites in they realize that they were lied to. With a better medical iter this wouldn' t happen. I think it would help both the patients and the doctors. As it is now, I hope many trans people and many detransitioners sue the hell out of them and win. I work in medical care, and the way these doctors are acting, minimizing the risks and the success and treating surgery (not just the transition type, but in general any kind of cosmetic surgery) as not that big of a deal is disgusting. It' s shameful that these doctors and medical professionists are sacrificing ethics and the only thing you should have in your mind (the well-being of your patient) in order to get money and/or headpats. I don' t excuse the ones who do it out of fear of being cancelled/fired either: cosmetic surgery doesn' t work in the same way as life-saving surgery, doctors in that branch can refuse a patient (Hell, doctors in life-saving surgeries fields can refuse patients for ethical reasons, the ones who work in cosmetic surgery can do it with even fewer issues), so if they do it despite not thinking it' s the best thing to do, they are jerks.

I hope doctors get sued too. Reading a lot of the horror stories online it seems like they often aren’t giving realistic expectations. I wonder if more surgeons or doctors who aren’t as good are entering this areas because there is money to be made. Like everything just became so affirmation focused in the last decade or so and I think it creates a warped view of how your life will actually be for many people. Also, internet communities reinforce that. I think these things can help, but actually being comfortably integrated into the world is like the biggest thing I feel like, and that’s not something that medical treatments can usually deliver by themselves. Also, the people who say trans genitals are exactly the same are hurting trans people I feel like because they may be setting them up for disappointment.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like you may just be more distrusting of gatekeeping in general than I am.

I am not distrusting of gatekeeping, it' s definitely a good idea. I am distrusting of people, especially the ones who are in power. Gatekeeping doesn' t exist in a vacuum, people would have to delieate the rules of it and other people would be the ones putting in action the process. Too many individuals involved for it to be something that could work: humans ruin everything, even good ideas.

The concept of gatekeeping exists to avoid letting someone ruin their own life. But I am of the idea that everyone should be free to do what they want, even if that means ruining their life. I think it' s better that a person chooses what to do, even if that means making a mistake, then letting someone else making that decision for them. Plus, as I said, people in power are never neutral of unbiased: they are all either seeking a way to get their own benefits or to push an agenda. I think it would be better for a person to seek their own benefits and agenda then being a tool in someone else' s hands.

If gatekeeping were indeed a neutral process, I would probably be more open to it. But it can' t be, because people will never be neutral.

I’m like very pro-reproductive rights and I feel like women should be able to make those choices no questions asked. I guess I usually feel differently about transition surgeries because, at least how things where when I transition, those things would give you the ability to change documents. I just don’t want people who aren’t safe to be in women’s spaces. Maybe I should rethink if it wouldn’t affect that, but I did mention worrying about support spaces a little.

But would you feel the same if documents either weren' t changed or were changed in a way that didn' t make women' s spaces more dangerous? I agree that this is the crux of the matter, and yes, if you could keep out dangerous people who are using transition just to hurt women, then gatekeeping would definitely be better. But that too isn' t a perfect science: some abusers are way smarter than the gatekeepers who would analyse them.

You' re right that reproductive rights, in the end, don' t have the same issues that transitioning brings: if a woman wants a hysterectomy, she' s not hurting, directly or potentially, anyone. However, I am not a fan of surgeries that are not done to fix a medical problem in general. I just really dislike the idea of going under surgery because you want to and not because you need to, and with "need to" I mean having a physical issue that can be proven and measurable. And I dislike the idea that spread in the past few years that surgery is just not that big of a deal. That includes hysterectomies, they aren' t an exception just because I am pro-body autonomy and reproductive rights. I am not trying to ban those surgeries and I would never dream of fighting against them: I just don' t like them and the attitude lots of supporters have.

I hope doctors get sued too. Reading a lot of the horror stories online it seems like they often aren’t giving realistic expectations. I wonder if more surgeons or doctors who aren’t as good are entering this areas because there is money to be made. Like everything just became so affirmation focused in the last decade or so and I think it creates a warped view of how your life will actually be for many people. Also, internet communities reinforce that. I think these things can help, but actually being comfortably integrated into the world is like the biggest thing I feel like, and that’s not something that medical treatments can usually deliver by themselves. Also, the people who say trans genitals are exactly the same are hurting trans people I feel like because they may be setting them up for disappointment.

Agreed. You can' t force social acceptance on people, and the way the trans community is behaving is not helping at all in the long run. I think it' s just going to create resentment and distrust: forcing someone to like you is never going to make anyone actually like you. Everyone who felt victimized by this attitude will revolt the second they can, and the ones who don' t care about the issue are just going to take the side that seems like it' s winning.

As for the attitude doctors and TRAs have about surgery and the life after transition, I think that some people are just so much into the idea that they are unable to recognize the reality of things. Others give me a "misery loves company" vibes.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You’ve thought about this a lot. :)

Gatekeeping can’t ever really be perfect, but maybe it could be good enough to help.

But would you feel the same if documents either weren' t changed or were changed in a way that didn' t make women' s spaces more dangerous?

I’d feel a lot better about it.

But that too isn' t a perfect science: some abusers are way smarter than the gatekeepers who would analyse them.

That’s true, sadly. There was more gatekeeping years back, but there were still abusers who managed to move through that system.

However, I am not a fan of surgeries that are not done to fix a medical problem in general. I just really dislike the idea of going under surgery because you want to and not because you need to, and with "need to" I mean having a physical issue that can be proven and measurable. And I dislike the idea that spread in the past few years that surgery is just not that big of a deal. That includes hysterectomies, they aren' t an exception just because I am pro-body autonomy and reproductive rights. I am not trying to ban those surgeries and I would never dream of fighting against them: I just don' t like them and the attitude lots of supporters have.

I understand feeling that way about elective surgery. I’m sure I would too if I like I wasn’t like I was and it’s difficult to imagine doing anything like that now. It’s sort of crazy when you think about it because your body works, but people still have reasons for wanting them even when it’s not something like dysphoria. Sometimes I wonder if maybe some therapy or something before some elective surgeries even that weren’t gender related just so they could establish it wasn’t a dysmorphia thing?

You can' t force social acceptance on people, and the way the trans community is behaving is not helping at all in the long run. I think it' s just going to create resentment and distrust: forcing someone to like you is never going to make anyone actually like you. Everyone who felt victimized by this attitude will revolt the second they can, and the ones who don' t care about the issue are just going to take the side that seems like it' s winning.

Agree. It will hurt us all eventually. It’s painful to watch it happen.

[–]MrFahrenheit46Gen Z butch dyke 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed on all counts.

[–]IceColdLover 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If it were up to me, this is what it would be, and in many ways it overlaps with the transmedicalist/"truscum" view of what it is to be trans.

  1. The word "gender" would stop being used altogether when referring to trans issues: we would call trans people "transsexual" and dysphoria related to biological sex, "sex dysphoria", since that is really what it is about. Only people experiencing dysphoria around their physical sex would be considered trans.

  2. "Trans" would refer to people who are diagnosed by a qualified professional with physical, body-related dysphoria related to their biological sex, and who have begun physical transition. The basis for who is and is not trans would NOT be based on self-identification alone. As a compassionate person, I would personally be willing to refer to these people with the sex and pronouns they wish to be referred to with out of empathy for their condition. After undergoing full surgical intervention, trans women would be allowed legally to access sex-segregated spaces for women.

  3. Gender roles and sex stereotypes would be viewed as antiquated and would no longer be enforced. No one would be expected to behave, dress, express themselves any specific way on the basis of their biological sex.

  4. Consequently, non-binary identification would no longer be recognized as valid.

  5. Trans people would receive protection under the law under anti-discrimination measures surrounding mental illness, not under "gender identity."

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. Amazing.

[–]HeyItsAquariusTranssexual (natal male) 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah this is a good idea

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm QT but out of all those I would only implement #3.

[–]IceColdLover 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But if #3 was implemented, then there would be no logical reason to be trans except for what was outlined under #2.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I don’t have much to add because I basically agree with everything you said here.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

“Transsexuals, at least, won’t magically disappear.”

Don’t want or need them to disappear. Want and need them to leave women and girls, our rights, our spaces, and our language alone.

“What would change for us?”

The dehumanizing language would stop, the TWAW/TMAM would stop. The homophobic (and To be fair, the antagonizing heterosexual people for not wanting to sleep with you- I know not all trans people do this) stuff would stop. Invading female spaces would stop. Transwomen would need to get their own spaces or use male spaces. DGAF what spaces transmen use, but as I’m not a male it’s not for me to say they can access male spaces. Legally changing sex on documents would not be a thing. Sports and other opportunities would remain for the sex it was designated for. Forcing pronouns and cancelling people who don’t agree with you would stop. The violence thrown at people who don’t agree with you would stop. The hijacking movements and speaking over and for other marginalized groups would stop. The equating yourself to intersex individuals or comparing yourself to black people (or other races who have been historically discriminated against and abused) would stop.

“Are we expected to be something else or starting telling people we are our natal sex?”

I don’t see why the terms transwo/man would disappear. And imo sexual and or romantic partners would need to be told, and people would know your natal sex when it matters because lying on legal documents wouldn’t be a thing.

“I feel like sometimes GC just looks at all trans people like crossdressers”

Nope. We see you as reality/biology sees you. The sex you were born. It’s that simple.

“and just think that you are just wearing certain clothes and starting wearing other clothes or changed your hair people would see you as your sex again,”

Don’t care how you look or dress. Or even how others see you. Care about my rights being undermined and being vilified for not playing along.

“but I don’t think it’s that simple for everyone.”

The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld.

“Past a certain point, you’d be asking people to undergo serious medical treatment to be able to look like their birth sex again.”

Again- I don’t say trans people should have to detransition. Just stop with the TWAW and cancel culture. Stop with the forcing ideology on others and telling us we are fetishists or bigots for not wanting to be with you sexually (again I know not all trans people do this). Do what you want to your body- just respect the boundaries and rights of others.

“Maybe I’m crazy to think about that and it doesn’t matter to GC, but if it doesn’t, what is expected?”

I don’t give a fuck what trans people do if they can do it without forcing everyone else to participate.

“because I feel like you aren’t happy with natal males being read as women or natal females being read as men.”

Most aren’t read as natal males or females. But again, I don’t care about the small percentage that are. I care about my rights, my spaces, the language stuff, and I care that I’m not forced to take part in it.

Eta- peaking, I know most of what I said doesn’t apply to you, just answering in general

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I’m glad you don’t have strong feelings about how we look. I don’t think most GC people do and I feel like it contradicts those beliefs in a lot of ways, but some people seem genuinely uncomfortable with a male person looking like me (same with female people looking like men) and think we need to become something they are more comfortable with.

I’d be nervous about the spaces thing just because there aren’t always third spaces. I wish there was more focus on pushing for this. I’d be scared using a male space for the same reason others probably would be and there isn’t really an understanding in place for that right now. The last time I used a men’s bathroom, when I was 17, I escorted out be security, so I feel like those things would happen unless there is more understanding about trans people. Maybe detrans women deal with this too in women’s restrooms. None of this is your problem obviously.

peaking, I know most of what I said doesn’t apply to you, just answering in general

I appreciate you saying that! I feel like we agree on most of what you want.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My thing with spaces, and this is my thing, not a gc thing, is- if you pass you pass and nobody knows you’re there. Yes it’s still technically infringing on female spaces/rights, but if it goes undetected it goes undetected. I think that the problem is that when we can tell, we can’t say or do anything about it. I think women and girls should be allowed to tell any male they observe in their space to remove themselves. That doesn’t mean that women and girls would tell all nonpassing transwomen to leave, it means when we do tell them (for whatever reason it may be) they leave. Maybe that’s not fair to transwomen- but it’s not their space and it’s more fair imo to make sure that the people the space was intended for feel safe and secure. The biggest issues I have with males in female spaces is 1. the door it opens up for any male to enter, 2. the fact that we are now at a point where it’s being normalized- which means that girls aren’t being taught to be alert and aware, instead they are taught that they are bigots or hateful to be alert and aware or even scared, and most of all 3. that males in these spaces is not something that all females are comfortable with, yet it’s being forced and we get vilified if we don’t like it. I personally don’t gaf where transwomen pee, truly I couldn’t care less. It’s the knowledge that other females do and have no choice but to put up with it. And it’s the fear of what that means in other situations (sports, female specific opportunities and jobs etc). we gave up our spaces, we called transwomen what they asked, and they still kept demanding more so I’ve reached a point where I feel like, stealth enter those spaces, and if you get caught- leave. Doesn’t make it fair for females as our spaces would still be technically compromised, but it’s more fair. Certainly not fair for transwomen, but it’s not their space to begin with and any compromise should be entirely dictated by females imo. (Again, I’m not directing this at you, I love interacting with you, and feel like I’d feel safe around you even if you didn’t pass -provided I knew it was you, I’m speaking in general.)

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that the problem is that when we can tell, we can’t say or do anything about it. I think women and girls should be allowed to tell any male they observe in their space to remove themselves. That doesn’t mean that women and girls would tell all nonpassing transwomen to leave, it means when we do tell them (for whatever reason it may be) they leave.

This is such an important point! I feel like giving any males permission to be in female spaces makes it where women and girls feel like they can’t say anything if they are uncomfortable. If it was like how it used to be which is that no one is given that permission, but some small number of transwomen still do because they pass and can’t really use the other space, that seems better. Maybe not perfect, but at least it makes it where someone would think about whether they would draw attention or make others uncomfortable. I feel like that is the nice thing to do anyway, but clearly not everyone does. I didn’t support the North Carolina bathroom bill because it didn’t make sense and couldn’t really be enforced (and also birth certificates and identification can be amended), but I also don’t think we should be giving people an irrevocable right to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity. I feel like we agree. 😊

[–]DistantGlimmer 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I would like for the category "transwomen" and "transmen" to come into wide use and be seen as a separate sex category. I think we should recognize the unique experience of transsexual while still recognizing the fact that actually changing sex is impossible. If transwomen could just be accepted as transwomen and be allowed to be as gender non-conforming as they want and if that becomes destigmatized by society I think it actually helps to move towards our wider goals of gender abolition. I certainly would not force or even encourage people to detransition unless it is something they really want to do. My understanding of it is that most transsexuals did not used to believe they actually changed sex and were just transitioning to try to cope with dysphoria so why can't we go back to that?

The issue of ID is a difficult one though. I realize it makes it easier for you to have your desired sex on your ID but I still consider it dishonest and wrong. Perhaps a solution would be just lessening the number of times people have to show ID with their sex on it in casual situations?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

My understanding of it is that most transsexuals did not used to believe they actually changed sex and were just transitioning to try to cope with dysphoria so why can't we go back to that?

I really wish we could. Maybe that will happen at some point. It was definitely better I feel like. It all went wrong when people starting saying “cis”.

Perhaps a solution would be just lessening the number of times people have to show ID with their sex on it in casual situations?

I feel like that would help. I understand why GC is against it and I know it’s not reality, even if it does make things easier.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It all went wrong when people starting saying “cis”.

When did you start noticing that being a "thing" ? I have vague inexplicit memories of when these things started happening - i could probably search my social media for an idea though.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe the late 00s? I wasn’t really in any communities so maybe it was earlier other places. I’d really have to look back to know exactly.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gender nonconformists are no longer told they are actually a terrible mistake and we’re born in the wrong body.

Genuinely dysphoric adults get intensive treatment to alleviate symptoms without the general public being expected to play a part in it. Transwomen are understood as simply another way for males to be not as females.

People stop talking about gender like it’s important and not arbitrary silliness.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gender nonconformists are no longer told they are actually a terrible mistake and we’re born in the wrong body.

Seriously! I used to feel like it was just the conservatives who made us feel like this (especially as kids), but now it feels like it’s both sides. One wants you to conform to the roles for you sex and the other wants you to change how you identify so you can conform to that (and possibly change your body too). I was also sex dysphoric as a child, but a boy could be feminine like I was and not feel that way and he shouldn’t be pushed to change himself (same for a masculine girl).

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yessss!! Honestly where I live it’s acceptable for a girl to be masculine but gods help you if you’re a feminine boy.
Got a toddler nephew who doesn’t like to be dirty and loves his long hair and SIL is already having to defend buying him a tshirt from the girls section or him being afraid of bees from the conservative side of the family. Now the progressive side is just as unaccepting. Who’s he gonna turn to when he’s older?

Sex dysphoria on top of that mess sounds like a nightmare. Kids are gonna have it rough.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think it would go back to the way things were 30 years ago, minus the horrific discrimination. Trans people would be protected on the basis of their gender nonconformity and spaces would be set aside to make sure they weren't endangered. It seems to me that what the majority of GC is most upset about is the forcible claiming of women's single-sex spaces and many trans women's assertions that they are entitled to female-only categories. Without that, I don't think there would ever have been any animosity between natal women and trans women. GC is a more of a reaction to the current climate. More of a defense than an offense, in sports terms.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I hope that would be true. I worry now that passing transsexuals quietly using women’s or men’s spaces wouldn’t be acceptable anymore even though it was 30 years ago (or at least not being fought because maybe there was no attention drawn to it or awareness). Do you think that GC would be alright returning to that or would we be violating a boundary to continue to live that way?

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think passing transsexuals are really on anyone's list of people to be concerned about. If no one can tell, they blend in and can live under the radar. It seems to me that most GC women are more concerned about the ability to call out interlopers in female spaces. If someone is acting suspicious and was obviously born male, they want the right to complain and have that person removed from the space. Passing trans women would be safe.

As far as trans men are concerned, to be honest, they seem like kind of an afterthought for both sides. No one cares much what trans men do. They're no danger to natal males and also no danger to fellow natal females. If anything, the GC crowd would be more inclined to want to protect them from entering violent male spaces like prisons, although God knows I think the vast majority of trans men have enough sense to know it's not safe for them there regardless.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I hope you’re right!

As far as trans men are concerned, to be honest, they seem like kind of an afterthought for both sides. No one cares much what trans men do.

Absolutely! I feel like on the TRA side, transmen are always the ones used for the lawsuits over bathrooms, but like basically ignored otherwise. GC doesn’t care about transmen because they don’t care about men’s spaces and men don’t care because they aren’t any physical threat. In always try to include transmen when I talk about trans experiences, but I realize that no one really cares.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's weird because I'm more drawn to talking about trans men than I am about trans women. Probably because I'm a GNC female person. I understand the concerns GC has about trans women, but to be honest, none of those things affect me personally. I'm not a lesbian, so I don't run into cotton ceiling rhetoric. I'm also very comfortable with coed nudity, so public restrooms and locker rooms aren't an issue for me.

[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You seem to have a belief that gender critical feminists think men are supposed to look a certain way and woman are supposed to look a certain way? There are some men who look like woman and some woman who look like men, and there's nothing wrong with that. there's also nothing wrong with being a man who makes himself look like a woman, or being a woman who makes herself look like a man.

there's only a problem when you say " I look like a woman, therefore I am one. And therefore grant me all the rights of woman."

For what I understand of your personal life, and your history, there is very little a lot of GC feminists would take issue with, aside maybe from being under the radar, but so long as you were open about it when relevant, I can't imagine too many people would really care.

I don't need to know the intimate biology of every person I have a casual interaction with. although there are probably some particulars in specifics I should know about the people I'm about to have an intimate interaction with.

Does that help clear things up at all?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

You seem to have a belief that gender critical feminists think men are supposed to look a certain way and woman are supposed to look a certain way? There are some men who look like woman and some woman who look like men, and there's nothing wrong with that. there's also nothing wrong with being a man who makes himself look like a woman, or being a woman who makes herself look like a man.

I guess I just feel like some GC aren’t comfortable with people who read as the other sex. I know it isn’t true based on what gender critical is, but I just feel that way from reading a lot of GC content. Sometimes it come out too with people insisting it never happens (which I feel like they want to be true because it makes them more comfortable). I’m glad that no one here seems to think that, but I feel I needed to say it.

For what I understand of your personal life, and your history, there is very little a lot of GC feminists would take issue with, aside maybe from being under the radar, but so long as you were open about it when relevant, I can't imagine too many people would really care.

Happy to hear that!

I don't need to know the intimate biology of every person I have a casual interaction with. although there are probably some particulars in specifics I should know about the people I'm about to have an intimate interaction with.

That seems reasonable. I hope this is how most people think about it. It can be private in most cases I feel like, but intimate partners and doctors need to know.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (141 children)

Not GC obviously but let’s hit some highlights so far.

The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld.

You heard it here first. Trans rights don’t matter because they are a minority.

Genuinely dysphoric adults get intensive treatment to alleviate symptoms without the general public being expected to play a part in it.

I may be overreaching but this seems like transition is illegal, which is monstrous on a deep and permeating level.

Absolutely no recourse for people misgendering you, if being properly gendered is allowed at all.

Consequently, non-binary identification would no longer be recognized as valid.

I’m not even non-binary but that seems pretty awful for them.

I would absolutely rather be dead than live un the world Sloan and catbug are pushing.

Ice, glimmer, and Omina I might live but would certainly have to give up on sobriety.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 13 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

You’re definitely reaching. People no longer being expected to smile and wave at males in the girls changing rooms or call males women. It’s nothing close to outlawing transitioning lmao.

Does the public no longer being expected to play a part in an individuals gender identity really stop any dysphoric person?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Weren’t they transitioning for decades before the public was forced to play a part?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. Transsexuals transitioned without demanding males have access to women’s shelters or toilets, and without erasing lesbians, and without deifying gender norms.

They were just people who got medicine or surgery to alleviate dysphoria.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I read that as someone endorsing the “therapy not hormones or surgery” refrain some here use. I misinterpreted.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Clearly.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (86 children)

“You heard it here first. Trans rights don’t matter because they are a minority.”

Calm the fuck down. That is not what I said and if you’re gonna quote me do it under my comment instead of sneaking it in elsewhere. What my statement means is simply that transwomen should not be able to undo other people’s (women’s/female) rights. You deserve and fucking have rights- you do not deserve the “right” to step all over the women’s rights movement for your benefit. Your rights should not infringe on another group’s rights. Stop. Putting. Words. In my mouth. Seriously was hoping you’d leave that shit on reddit. But I should’ve known better.

“I may be overreaching but this seems like transition is illegal, which is monstrous on a deep and permeating level.”

You are, as usual, overreaching. This means that if you have dysphoria- you get to transition physically. Reading comprehension is truly fundamental.

“Absolutely no recourse for people misgendering you, if being properly gendered is allowed at all.”

Yeah. You don’t get to force other people to subscribe to your belief system. How horrific 🙄 why should it be okay to punish someone for not pretending a man is a woman? Why do you get to force your beliefs on everyone else? Do we not have the right to freedom of speech? Or do we, but only as long as we speak how you want? Who the hell are you to demand that?

“I’m not even non-binary but that seems pretty awful for them.”

Every single “non-binary” person has a sex. They’d be okay. And if not, they need help.

“I would absolutely rather be dead than live un the world Sloan and catbug are pushing.”

A world that recognizes reality, allows females to have equal rights, and doesn’t force others to conform to a specific way of thinking? How awful.

“Ice, glimmer, and Omina I might live but would certainly have to give up on sobriety”

If this is your thinking sober, please don’t give up on it. I can’t imagine how badly you’d twist other people’s words if you weren’t thinking clearly.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Can you even imagine the coddled bubble one would have to have been in for decades to say that being called male is worse than being called a baby-murderer or a rapist. How detached you’d need to be from any other persons suffering to think that way?

Sometimes I wonder about the lives posters must live.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They were able to say to me that in some ways they could be seen as racist, and that it wasn’t for them to say that it wasn’t true. Yet someone saying something that is true is just the worst thing possible. The narcissism is real.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

“I’d rather be considered a racist than someone not lie to my face about what sex I am”?? That was the sentiment?

Also lmao people are allowed to perceive me as a racist but perceiving my sex is a hatecrime” is the actual silliest thing I’ve ever heard in any gc debate.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. This is def in my top 5 “wow. They really just said that” list from this sub.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

Coddled bubble for decades? Hardly. In the last decade I’ve been beaten up for being trans. Lost a job for being trans. Spent time homeless for being trans.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Is there a second of your life where you stop focusing on being trans and think that other people experience as much or even worse pain than you do upon being recognised as your actual sex, not your desired one?

That’s the bubble I’m talking about. The one where there is nothing as urgent, important, and as great a matter for public concern as someone’s trans status.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I can’t stop thinking about being trans because it defines every interaction I have. I’m afraid to go many places alone, I have to consider what will happen if I encounter anti trans sentiment every time I go somewhere new. It is the thing that determines how people treat me and see me above every other facet of me.

I’d love to not think about being trans, but that’s not ever going to be the case unfortunately.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Okay, but do you ever think about other people? Their needs? Their struggles? Their sense of safety? The ways they are discriminated against and marginalized?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Absolutely. But I expect it to go both ways.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (11 children)

If you truly expected it to go both ways you wouldn’t be fighting to compel speech and you’d leave women and our spaces alone. You don’t expect it to go both ways. You expect it to go your way. Every comment you’ve made shows this.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

For the thousandth time I’m not in any way pushing for compelled speech. I’m pushing for the right to object to being insulted. I think of a gay guy is called a faggot he should be able to object. If someone is called a racial slur they should be able to object. If a woman is called the c word or a slut they should be able to object. And if I’m called a man I should be able to object.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds rough and that’s genuinely a shame, but can you see how it’s making it harder for you to consider anyone else’s plight when discussing safety in general?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

That is not what I said and if you’re gonna quote me do it under my comment instead of sneaking it in elsewhere. What my statement means is simply that transwomen should not be able to undo other people’s (women’s/female) rights. You deserve and fucking have rights- you do not deserve the “right” to step all over the women’s rights movement for your benefit.

I am a cis woman and trans women have not stepped over my rights.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know there are other women who disagree with you. Hence this sub, and many others. What exactly was this comment supposed to accomplish? Everyone knows you’re not gc. GC people and many others who don’t even know the terms GC/radfem vehemently disagree with you. The fact of the matter is that female rights are being infringed upon, whether you feel that way or not.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (61 children)

I didn’t really to you directly because you’ve made it perfectly clear you don’t want to have a discussion just insult me. But fine.

You deserve and fucking have rights

We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.

Stop. Putting. Words. In my mouth.

I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it. How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?

You are, as usual, overreaching. This means that if you have dysphoria- you get to transition physically. Reading comprehension is truly fundamental.

That’s not clear at all from what they wrote and the contrary is implied.

You don’t get to force other people to subscribe to your belief system.

We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse. Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.

Do we not have the right to freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech is from government action.

A world that recognizes reality, allows females to have equal rights, and doesn’t force others to conform to a specific way of thinking? How awful.

A world where I was subject to wanton discrimation, harassment, And having no recourse to stop any of it. A world where I was legally forced to call myself the most heinous thing I could be called. A world where I couldn’t go anywhere because it would be illegal to go in any public necessary space that wasn’t a deathtrap. Yeah I would rather be dead that to have to call myself a man and have to do nothing while others did not that I would see anyone because I couldn’t leave the house.

If this is your thinking sober, please don’t give up on it. I can’t imagine how badly you’d twist other people’s words if you weren’t thinking clearly.

Making fun of my sobriety is over the line.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (56 children)

“We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.”

Here we go with martyr masks. You do have rights. Why do you always act as if you don’t?

“I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it.”

You took my words and placed an entirely different meaning on them. Made them about something I wasn’t even referring to in that moment.

“How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?”

This is why reading comprehension is crucial.

Peaking- I feel like sometimes GC just looks at all trans people like crossdressers and just think that you are just wearing certain clothes and starting wearing other clothes or changed your hair people would see you as your sex again, but I don’t think it’s that simple for everyone

Sloane- The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld

You- sLoaNe dOesN’t wAnT uS to HaVe rIgHtS BeCauSe wE’rE jUsT A mInoRiTy (even though I’m considered a fucking minority in multiple ways 🙄)

We weren’t talking about rights- yes I referenced them, I also clarified to you what I meant by referencing them. The “not that simple” is about it not being so simple to go back- never said people had to detransition, said of things aren’t “so simple” I don’t care- I care about the rights of half the world over the complications that males not being able to undermine them may face. Doesn’t mean you don’t get to have rights- means you don’t get to erase mine.

“That’s not clear at all from what they wrote and the contrary is implied.”

Yet another reason that reading comprehension skills are extremely important. But I think you do understand and your need to present as the victim made you pretend you didn’t. Since you quoted them saying that dysphoric individuals get the treatment to alleviate their symptoms (that’s literally all you quoted from there- like, come on). The only thing is that others aren’t obligated to play a part in it.

“We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse.”

No. You wouldn’t. Being called pronouns that are factual is not harassment. Not pretending we think sex can change or males can be women is not harassment. You used to be a lawyer, you should know this. Compelling speech may not be harassment- it’s not okay to do. And that’s what you push for. But I’m wrong?

“Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.”

I’d say then that individuals who can’t handle being referred to with biologically accurate terms should receive counseling and be advised on how to cope with that difficulty. You don’t get to force people to play along. Others feel just as strongly about not playing along as you do about forcing them to. Every reason you have for justifying forcing it, we have for justifying being allowed to speak honestly.

“Freedom of speech is from government action.”

So... do you respect people having the right to speak as they wish or not? I know what freedom of speech is.

“A world where I was subject to wanton discrimation, harassment, And having no recourse to stop any of it.”

Do you honestly not understand that other people (non trans) also have this issue? Also- if you need the whole world to gaslight themselves and lie to you daily to be okay(those other people I mentioned don’t expect or demand tho and still have this same issue btw)- do you really think that’s reasonable?

“A world where I was legally forced to call myself the most heinous thing I could be called.”

you think being called a male/man is more heinous than being called a murderer? A pedophile? A rapist? A racist? An idiot? Any of the many slurs and offensive terms that people call each other? Seriously? Fucking seriously? (And no I’m not calling you these things, these are examples of actual heinous or cruel things people can be called)

“A world where I couldn’t go anywhere because it would be illegal to go in any public necessary space that wasn’t a deathtrap.”

No. Just no. Allowing females to have safe spaces doesn’t make all necessary public spaces a death trap. Please stop trying to guilt trip women into sacrificing their rights for you.

“Yeah I would rather be dead that to have to call myself a man and have to do nothing while others did”

Then call yourself a transwoman. Most people would also. No one said the term “transwoman” would be erased (I even clarified that. Funny how you left that part out).

“not that I would see anyone because I couldn’t leave the house.”

That’s your personal choice. Idgaf.

“Making fun of my sobriety is over the line”

Undermining my rights is over the line. Compelling my speech is over the line. Misrepresentation to get your way is over the line.

You sure you wanna open this door and talk about one of us crossing a line? Because I can recall many a time when you crossed several lines.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

You do have rights. Why do you always act as if you don’t?

Because we don’t. We have tenuous employment protections finally but those will be overturned any time once trump gives the conservatives on the bench a 6-3 now that Ginsburg is gone. We have no other applications of the civil rights act formally applied. By executive order we can be denied even emergency medical care simply for being trans. We have no housing discrimination rights. If I were arrested tomorrow I would be put in a men’s lockup and I could ask for but had no garuantee of solitary confinement as the only protective option. I don’t know what rights you think trans people have, but we have basically no protections of any kind.

The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld

I don’t care- I care about the rights of half the world over the complications that males not being able to undermine them may face.

That’s you saying your rights are more important. Expressly. How can you argue otherwise?

Since you quoted them saying that dysphoric individuals get the treatment to alleviate their symptoms (that’s literally all you quoted from there- like, come on). The only thing is that others aren’t obligated to play a part in it.

And that could easily be read as psychiatric care with no transition. They’ve clarified it’s not the case at this point but the statement sounded like an innuendo for the Typical “therapy not hormones” line that comes through here. I was mistaken.

No. You wouldn’t. Being called pronouns that are factual is not harassment. Not pretending we think sex can change or males can be women is not harassment.

Yes it is. Harassment doesn’t need to be sexual. Calling me a manly man every time you see me and seeing out excuses to call me a man when you know it makes me deeply uncomfortable is in fact workplace harassment and as they’ve laid out there would be nothing I could do about it but quit and hope I could find another job where I wasn’t harassed,

I’d say then that individuals who can’t handle being referred to with biologically accurate terms should receive counseling and be advised on how to cope with that difficulty. You don’t get to force people to play along. Others feel just as strongly about not playing along as you do about forcing them to. Every reason you have for justifying forcing it, we have for justifying being allowed to speak honestly.

And neutral address or asking that we be separated and not forced to interact to hr should be something I can ask for. The system they laid out wouldn’t allow that.

So... do you respect people having the right to speak as they wish or not? I know what freedom of speech is.

I’m not saying it should be illegal to misgender but I also don’t want it to be speech protected from Private employer action in The workplace.

Do you honestly not understand that other people (non trans) also have this issue?

Our society has generally given those people legal recourse. Sometimes it’s less effective than ideal but they at least can try. We wouldn’t in the system they laid out.

you think being called a male/man is more heinous than being called a murderer? A pedophile? A rapist? A racist? An idiot? Any of the many slurs and offensive terms that people call each other? Seriously? Fucking seriously?

No one could believe I was a pedophile, rapist or murderer. I’ve factually never done those things. If they accused me of that and it caused harm I’d have access to a slander claim to sue.

I would find being called a man more insulting than being called an idiot.

Racist is tricky because I probably do have some racist beliefs somewhere since I’m white and raised in this society. Like I tend to find light skinned black men more attractive than any other men which could be considered fetishizing. On that level am I a racist? I don’t know. I hope not but that’s not really up to me to decide.

No. Just no. Allowing females to have safe spaces doesn’t make all necessary public spaces a death trap. Please stop trying to guilt trip women into sacrificing their rights for you.

I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely. That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.

Undermining my rights is over the line. Compelling my speech is over the line. Misrepresentation to get your way is over the line.

I’m not undermining your rights or misrepresenting you. And I’ve made clear I’m not advocating for compelled speech.

You want to come at my arguments be my guest but it is every kind of inappropriate to mock someone’s sobriety.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely. That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.

If you go into the women's room, since women are the oppressed sex category and mixed-sex spaces effectively become "male" dominated because of the power dynamics between male and female people, you would be turning that restroom into a male restroom by default.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Except men wouldn’t go in.

[–]IceColdLover 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You have to understand when I say "men" I mean all biological males, whether they identify as men or not. I will call you, if I see you in person by what you ask me to call you because you have had the systematic power to ensure I must otherwise my life becomes hell on earth if I don't. All males have privilege over females by virtue of being born male in a society that privileges maleness.

I am fine with calling you a transwoman, if you really do not want to be referred to as a man, since you are a transwoman, but to me you'll never be just a woman.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

We don’t have any systemic power. At best we’ve fostered enough sympathy that people feel bad enough to generally support us but it isn’t about power. Because that could change in sympathies of the people who have power.

There is nothing I consider more an insult than being called a man. I don’t mind being called trans women generally but Espescially since I don’t pass do stealth isn’t an option but I do consider myself a woman.

[–]IceColdLover 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We don’t have any systemic power. At best we’ve fostered enough sympathy that people feel bad enough to generally support us but it isn’t about power. Because that could change in sympathies of the people who have power.

You have fostered enough sympathy amongst people with systematic power, but the impact of this is that it is being forced from the top down on everyone else. What this means is that the VAST majority of women, and men for that matter do not consider you a woman in any meaningful way but are being forced to say they do because of threat to their livelihood. I was about to ask if this makes you feel wrong in any way for suppressing others' speech and forcing them to lie but then I realized of course not.

There is nothing I consider more an insult than being called a man.

If that is the worst thing someone could call you then what you really need isn't estrogen, it is therapy. I would suspect that men have mistreated you in ways that have traumatized you and you need closure, or there is something else going on mentally. I am saying this out of compassion.

I would call you a trans woman, not a woman. If that isn't good enough for trans women in general well it's the most I am willing to bend.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

“That’s you saying your rights are more important. Expressly. How can you argue otherwise?”

Jesus fucking christ why do you always ignore what I’m saying so you can make these bullshit claims. I literally said, multiple times, that what I said doesn’t mean you don’t get rights — IT MEANS YOU DONT GET TO ERASE MINE IN ORDER TO OBTAIN YOURS that’s it. That’s all it means. It means you don’t get to shit allover female rights to obtain your rights. Full stop. What the fuck is so hard for you to understand? Is it that female rights matter? Because frankly it sounds like that’s what you think.

“And that could easily be read as psychiatric care with no transition. They’ve clarified it’s not the case at this point but the statement sounded like an innuendo for the Typical “therapy not hormones” line that comes through here. I was mistaken.”

Like I said- reading comprehension. You read to panic and complain. You read to self victimize. Never to understand.

“Yes it is.”

No the fuck it’s not.

“Harassment doesn’t need to be sexual. “

I’m well aware.

“Calling me a manly man every time you see me and seeing out excuses to call me a man when you know it makes me deeply uncomfortable is in fact workplace harassment and as they’ve laid out there would be nothing I could do about it but quit and hope I could find another job where I wasn’t harassed,”

Didn’t say calling you a manly name, you legally change your name- that’s your fucking name. Didn’t say make excuses to call you a man, if they refer to you with biologically correct terms, even if it upsets your hypersensitive self, it is not harassment. People don’t even refer to each other with sexed terms in person, you’d be called you. So if you mean to police language when nobody is even talking to you that’s pretty shitty. There’s a difference between someone actively taunting you and just refusing to placate you. The latter is not harassment. Get the fuck over yourself.

“And neutral address or asking that we be separated and not forced to interact to hr should be something I can ask for.”

Then ask for it? You can open your mouth and ask someone to call you whatever the fuck you want? You just don’t get to force them to lie. You’re really saying that if someone chooses to speak honestly, even if they are respectful and not taunting you, only using the language that makes them feel comfortable and safe, that you’d go to HR and complain? So you’d force people to speak in a matter that goes against their beliefs. That’s... 🙄

“I’m not saying it should be illegal to misgender but I also don’t want it to be speech protected from Private employer action in The workplace.”

So no- you don’t respect people having the right to speak as they wish. Thanks for finally answering a question I ask you.

“Our society has generally given those people legal recourse. Sometimes it’s less effective than ideal but they at least can try.”

It’s most often ineffective. That’s my point. People can do something after discrimination- can’t do much if anything to prevent it.

“We wouldn’t in the system they laid out.”

You would, just not for the reason you want.

“No one could believe I was a pedophile, rapist or murderer.”

You don’t know that. I also didn’t ask if they’d believe it- I asked if it would be worse to be called those things.

“I’ve factually never done those things.”

Doesn’t mean people can’t call you that. You’ve never been a woman and people call you that.

“If they accused me of that and it caused harm I’d have access to a slander claim to sue.”

What kind of harm? Just hurting your feelings? Or actual repercussions?

“I would find being called a man more insulting than being called an idiot.”

But the other names would be worse?

“Racist is tricky because I probably do have some racist beliefs somewhere since I’m white and raised in this society.”

Love how you can admit to this bias, but not the bias of your sex. That’s so... nevermind. I’d get banned from the sub for elaborating.

“Like I tend to find light skinned black men more attractive than any other men which could be considered fetishizing.”

...not touching this lol

“On that level am I a racist? I don’t know. I hope not but that’s not really up to me to decide.”

But what happens to female rights and spaces is up to you to decide? The language that other people get to use is up to you to decide? I could keep going, but I’m sure someone will get my point here. I know it won’t be you.

“I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely.”

What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe?

That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.”

What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe?

“I’m not undermining your rights”

Yes you are. I’m a female so there’s those rights, you’re also forcing my speech, forcing me to pretend I believe in your ideology.

“or misrepresenting you.”

Didn’t say misrepresenting me. There’s no part of me that you could possibly represent. We have absolutely no groups in common.

“You want to come at my arguments be my guest but it is every kind of inappropriate to mock someone’s sobriety”

Was supporting your sobriety and encouraging you to keep at it. But also- is me using words you don’t like interfering with your safety and your rights? Is my implication that a not sober masks would misconstrue more peoples words somehow causing you real harm or making you unsafe- or did it just upset you? Again- not expecting you to get my point, but I know others will. You apologize for invading female spaces and compelling speech, I’ll apologize for this.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

“And neutral address or asking that we be separated and not forced to interact to hr should be something I can ask for.”

My point is as laid out the answer is no and there’s nothing I can do about it but be insulted by a coworker or quit.

You’re really saying that if someone chooses to speak honestly, even if they are respectful and not taunting you, only using the language that makes them feel comfortable and safe, that you’d go to HR and complain?

You can’t be respectful and not taunting me and call me a man. It’s not possible. They should be free to not talk to me or just use my name. They don’t have to call me a woman but i can’t work with someone who calls me a man.

“I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely.” What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe? That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.” What does this have to do with women? Why does this justify you making their space unsafe?

You are the one asserting I wouldn’t somehow be barred from participation in public life by being banned from women’s restrooms. My point was banning is from women’s rooms bans us from public life. You assert it doesn’t. Feel free to explain how you think you can got through life without access to a bathroom.

This is clearly pointless because you’ve accused me of compelling speech neumerous times despite the fact that I’ve repeatedly clarified that I don’t actively want people compelled to call me anything, just that they not call me a man. That can be neutral address or just leaving me alone. That’s not compelling anything.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

“You can’t be respectful and not taunting me and call me a man. It’s not possible.”

You can’t be respectful and not taunting me if you demand that I use language that makes me uncomfortable. It’s not possible.

You can’t be respectful of females and undermine their rights. It’s just not possible.

“They should be free to not talk to me or just use my name.They don’t have to call me a woman but i can’t work with someone who calls me a man.”

I literally said they’d use your name. I also said that they’d call you a transwoman.

“You are the one asserting I wouldn’t somehow be barred from participation in public life by being banned from women’s restrooms.”

Can you please explain how women having their safe spaces bars you from public life? Can you please explain how you not having a place you feel safe justifies you taking a safe space from a protected class?

“My point was banning is from women’s rooms bans us from public life.”

How?

“You assert it doesn’t. Feel free to explain how you think you can got through life without access to a bathroom.”

Youd have access to bathrooms, just not the women’s. If you choose not to use the restroom available to you- for whatever reasons- that’s your choice. Why do you think it’s right for you to invade someone else’s safe space? Why do you think it is right to take away safe spaces from girls and women?

“This is clearly pointless because you’ve accused me of compelling speech neumerous times despite the fact that I’ve repeatedly clarified that I don’t actively want people compelled to call me anything, just that they not call me a man. That can be neutral address or just leaving me alone. That’s not compelling anything.”

I used to read the old sub’s comments to my husband. He used to say that if we played the masks/void’s “Don’t Call Me a Man” drinking game we’d get alcohol poisoning. That’s how frequently you demand compelled speech.

I’m not the only one accusing you of compelling speech, I’ve seen a few others do the same. Yet I’m the only one you’re calling out for it. But you are- even if it’s just saying they can’t or shouldn’t call you a man- thats compelling speech. You’re telling people what not to say, even if there’s an understandable reason for why they’d use that language. I also said I have no problem with neutral language, and absolutely no problem with people leaving you alone.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

You can’t be respectful and not taunting me if you demand that I use language that makes me uncomfortable. It’s not possible.

You can use they/them, my name, or simply not refer to me. You don’t have to say anything.

Can you please explain how women having their safe spaces bars you from public life? Can you please explain how you not having a place you feel safe justifies you taking a safe space from a protected class? “My point was banning is from women’s rooms bans us from public life.” How?

There are two bathrooms. One is illegal to enter one is at best a panic attack and also very likely a beating. That’s the same as having no bathrooms which means we can’t participate in public life.

Why do you think it’s right for you to invade someone else’s safe space? Why do you think it is right to take away safe spaces from girls and women?

I’ll happily use neutral rooms when available. But they basically don’t exist most places or are reserved for families with children. That means the options are the women’s room where I know no one will be harmed by me or the men’s room where I would very likely be harmed. You would ask that I choose the option with the greater chance of harm.

Youd have access to bathrooms, just not the women’s. If you choose not to use the restroom available to you- for whatever reasons- that’s your choice.

Not being allowed somewhere because you will be beaten up isn’t a free choice not to enter.

I used to read the old sub’s comments to my husband. He used to say that if we played the masks/void’s “Don’t Call Me a Man” drinking game we’d get alcohol poisoning. That’s how frequently you demand compelled speech.

That’s not compelled speech. Compelled speech would be asking for you to be required to call me a woman. I’m saying I should have recourse to prevent people from calling me an insult. That’s not compelling speech it’s restricting fighting words, at worst. Which isn’t compelled speech.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

“You can use they/them, my name, or simply not refer to me. You don’t have to say anything.”

I know. And I agree. But what I’m saying is that you telling people what they can’t say is still compelled speech.

“There are two bathrooms. One is illegal to enter one is at best a panic attack and also very likely a beating. That’s the same as having no bathrooms which means we can’t participate in public life.”

Oh! I’m sorry. I didn’t understand that public life was solely about everyone going around peeing in bathrooms. I thought public life was going shopping, going out to eat, hiking, you know- like being in public places. I’ve been living publicly incorrectly for so long! Here I am getting food, exercising, going to the movies, stuff like that, when really I should’ve just been spending my time out of my home solely focused on peeing in the women’s room.

“I’ll happily use neutral rooms when available. But they basically don’t exist most places or are reserved for families with children. That means the options are the women’s room”

So you do believe that it’s fair to rob females of their safe space. At least you finally admit it.

“where I know no one will be harmed by me”

Not the point.

“or the men’s room where I would very likely be harmed. You would ask that I choose the option with the greater chance of harm.”

No. I ask that you respect females enough to not invade their spaces.

“Not being allowed somewhere because you will be beaten up isn’t a free choice not to enter.”

You’re not being allowed to invade spaces that were literally meant to keep you out. Just say you don’t give a fuck about female rights. This skirting the issue stuff you do had got to be exhausting.

“That’s not compelled speech. Compelled speech would be asking for you to be required to call me a woman.”

You’re still telling people what to say by telling them what not to say.

“I’m saying I should have recourse to prevent people from calling me an insult.”

I agree. You should have recourse to prevent people from calling you an insult. The word man is not an insult just because you don’t like it personally.

“That’s not compelling speech it’s restricting fighting words, at worst. Which isn’t compelled speech.”

Lmao sure buddy

[–]just_lesbian_things 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

If I were arrested tomorrow I would be put in a men’s lockup and I could ask for but had no garuantee of solitary confinement as the only protective option.

You and any other men. Are all men being denied rights if they get put in men's lockup upon being arrested?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

The point is I would certainly be victimized and there are no protections in place. Despite the fact it’s cruel and unusual punishment to allow sexual assault of prisoners. Trans people are uniquely vulnerable.

[–]just_lesbian_things 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Despite the fact it’s cruel and unusual punishment to allow sexual assault of prisoners

Yeah it really sucks that men keep doing that to each other. Maybe you should reach out to other men and see if you can't get a movement going where men agree to not rape each other.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Really going to make light of prison abuse of trans women?

[–]just_lesbian_things 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

No, I'm equally concerned about prison abuse of any man, regardless of how they identify.

[–]IceColdLover 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.

Clearly, trans people (mostly trans women but not exclusively) have had the ability to redefine gender and sex, force other people to pretend to agree with and parrot their views under the threat of unemployment and physical violence, hijack entire social and political movements such as BLM and center themselves in nearly everything, and wreak havoc against those who refuse, does this sound like something that a truly oppressed group of people could accomplish?

I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it. How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?

Right now we have the opposite: the rights of 0.6% of the population are being prioritized over 50% of the population. Why is that fair to you but not the reverse?

We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse. Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.

So do women every day of our lives. Find someone else to feel sorry for you because at this point it's not going to be me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Clearly, trans people (mostly trans women but not exclusively) have had the ability to redefine gender and sex, force other people to pretend to agree with and parrot their views under the threat of unemployment and physical violence, hijack entire social and political movements such as BLM and center themselves in nearly everything, and wreak havoc against those who refuse, does this sound like something that a truly oppressed group of people could accomplish?

Social acceptance isn’t rights. I’m America the only national protection trans people have the the tenuous employment protections we got this year via Supreme Court decision.

Right now we have the opposite: the rights of 0.6% of the population are being prioritized over 50% of the population. Why is that fair to you but not the reverse?

Trans rights don’t interfere with women’s rights. So it wouldn’t be right but also the conflict is illusory.

So do women every day of our lives. Find someone else to feel sorry for you because at this point it's not going to be me.

You have recourse. That’s my point. If you are harassed at work you can sue. We couldn’t under the proposed system.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Social acceptance isn’t rights. I’m America the only national protection trans people have the the tenuous employment protections we got this year via Supreme Court decision.

It's not a matter of social acceptance. Socially you're not accepted as a woman. I can promise you that what I and other GC women are saying is how the vast majority of women would feel if surveyed completely anonymously on the subject with the reassurance that whatever they said would never be held against them. Only because of the threat of unemployment, violence, rape threats and death threats are people "accepting" you as a woman, which is not acceptance but coercion.

Trans rights don’t interfere with women’s rights. So it wouldn’t be right but also the conflict is illusory.

This is not true. When women are forced to not use certain words and phrases because it offends trans sensibilities, that is an infringement on our rights. When women have to jump through hoops to challenge predatory males' presence in our spaces (and I do not mean most trans women) that is an infringement on our rights. When women are being pushed out of the spaces we created for our own protection by males who identify as women, that is an infringement on our rights.

You have recourse. That’s my point. If you are harassed at work you can sue. We couldn’t under the proposed system.

If I was harassed at work by a trans woman and I reported it, I would likely be accused of being transphobic because I am seen as lower on the oppression totem pole.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not a matter of social acceptance. Socially you're not accepted as a woman. I can promise you that what I and other GC women are saying is how the vast majority of women would feel if surveyed completely anonymously on the subject with the reassurance that whatever they said would never be held against them.

I think you are wrong. And if I agreed with you I would definitely have offed myself rather than transition.

This is not true. When women are forced to not use certain words and phrases because it offends trans sensibilities, that is an infringement on our rights. When women have to jump through hoops to challenge predatory males' presence in our spaces (and I do not mean most trans women) that is an infringement on our rights. When women are being pushed out of the spaces we created for our own protection by males who identify as women, that is an infringement on our rights.

I’m talking about legal rights.

If I was harassed at work by a trans woman and I reported it, I would likely be accused of being transphobic because I am seen as lower on the oppression totem pole.

Again I’m talking about legal rights. Whether someone thinks you are being a bully doesn’t mean you still can’t sue over harassment.

[–]IceColdLover 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m not even non-binary but that seems pretty awful for them.

Non-binary people and the ideology they uphold makes life extraordinarily more difficult for gender-nonconforming people who simply want to live their lives as they are. A girl likes playing football and skateboarding and doesn't want to paint her nails? Here come the hordes of people now pressuring her to identify as non-binary or a trans man. A boy wants to paint his nails and still call himself a boy? No, now he is told he is a self-hating non-binary person who hasn't accepted himself yet. It's offensive, ridiculous, and regressive.

For non-binary identity to be valid, it means that "women" must all behave one way, "men" must behave another, and anyone who is not strictly masculine or feminine in their interests, tastes, preferences, and style is a third gender. While I have empathy for transsexuals and people with gender dysphoria around their biological sex, I actually believe non-binary identity, like self-ID trans ideology where dysphoria is not prerequisite, is founded upon a very oppressive, conservative, and regressive mentality around what is expected of people because of their sex, as well as a pathological, narcissistic need for attention.

So while my ideal world does allow for trans people who are transsexual and experience dysphoria around their sex to exist and live, even legally and societally as their preferred sex, because I believe in creating a compassionate society where no one is discriminated against for factors outside of their control, anything that is based on vague feelings of "gender" around sexist stereotypes would no longer be recognized as an identity that anyone else is bound to respect.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What about non-binary people who suffer from Dysphoria. For instance I know a non-binary person who suffered from physical dysphoria over many body features and has undergone hormone therapy but not their genitals and didn't feel like they identified as a woman totally?

[–]IceColdLover 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I feel differently if they actually experience dysphoria but that is not the majority of cases.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

I am not sure what part of my world would make you give up on sobriety.

Is it the fact that you wouldn't be listed as woman in official documents? You would be listed as a trans woman or something similar, and you have always said that you are fine with not being considered a woman as long as you aren't considered a man.

I also remember that your main issue with being listed as trans would be that you could lose your job for it. However 1) in my world there would be protections on the matter, so as long as you do your job they wouldn't be able to fire you and 2) don't you always say that you don't pass? So even "without rights" as you put it, you still have a job despite everyone knowing you are trans.

Or is it the fact that people would be able to choose whether to follow your requests regarding pronouns and labels? So you effectively want people to be forced into compelled speech?

Or is it for transition? You would be able to transition just like you did. In fact it would probably become more accessible if it were considered a simple cosmetic surgery.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (44 children)

Being locked into male documents is both an invitation to discrimination even not in person and a a massive dysphoria inducing insult. Imagine being legally required to carry a card with your unpleasant medical history around and show it to people regularly. “Trans woman” would at least be less insulting but still represents the invitation to discriminate.

I don’t pass but not everyone is as unlucky as I am. I was able to find a job after a long term of unemployment but I only have this job because the section I am in happens to have a tolerant lead. On a different team at this company I absolutely wouldn’t have been hired or not able to stay. But again it’s not just me. Some trans people are lucky enough to pass.

I don’t want compelled speech but I also don’t want it to enshrined in law that I have no recourse when I am harassed by a transphobe. Not calling me a man isn’t compelled speech. There are neutral options or just not referring to my sex, or leaving me alone. I should have the right to ask for that from the company when someone is turning a workplace into a hostile work environment.

For transition. Having it considered cosmetic makes it far less accessible since nothing would be covered by insurance and it would be potentially exempted from things like fmla or workplace sick policies.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

You wouldn' t be listed as a man, you would be listed as a trans woman. Which is what you are.

As for dysphoria, if your dysphoria is triggered by having a TW on your documents, then you need better therapy.

Passing or not, they would have protections.

Not calling me a man isn’t compelled speech.

If the law says that nobody can call you a man, then yes, it is compelled speech.

harassed by a transphobe

Harrassing and calling a male "he" are not the same thing. I know you disagree, but you are wrong.

For transition. Having it considered cosmetic makes it far less accessible since nothing would be covered by insurance and it would be potentially exempted from things like fmla or workplace sick policies.

It would, however, be normalized enough that prices would eventually go down. When I was a child it was prohibitive to have cosmetic surgery, now it doesn' t really take much.

But whatever, if you prefer having it considered a medical problem, then I guess only the people who are diagnosed with dysphoria would get it. Problem is, the gatekeeping for it would be much harder than it is now, so I am prettuy sure more people would be able to transition with it being considered cosmetic surgery than it being considered a legitimate medical need.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

Passing or not, they would have protections.

Those protections won’t stop a cop from beating a trans women who had the nerve to be attractive when they get pulled over. Or a loan officer from tossing a sex: TW application in the bin. Or a gang of toughs jumping a trans woman in a bar who had to show her license and someone commented on.

I don’t pass so it’s moot for me. But it’s not just about me. There are trans women who have the potential to live normal lives out there.

Problem is, the gatekeeping for it would be much harder than it is now, so I am prettuy sure more people would be able to transition with it being considered cosmetic surgery than it being considered a legitimate medical need.

I don’t believe that’s true. Most trans women are quite poor. Certainly too poor to afford uncovered surgery. I know I never could have.

[–]IceColdLover 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Those protections won’t stop a cop from beating a trans women who had the nerve to be attractive when they get pulled over.

You speak as if the majority of trans women can pass. If a cop pulled over the average trans woman, even if their documentation said "female" or "woman" the cop would still know in 90% of cases it is a trans woman and the reaction would be the same.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t know whether the majority do or not but some do and that’s enough reason to raise concern.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Those protections won’t stop a cop from beating a trans women who had the nerve to be attractive when they get pulled over. Or a loan officer from tossing a sex: TW application in the bin. Or a gang of toughs jumping a trans woman in a bar who had to show her license and someone commented on.

Same goes for non passing trans people, though. Those things can happen. The system is not and will never be perfect.

I don’t pass so it’s moot for me. But it’s not just about me. There are trans women who have the potential to live normal lives out there.

By screwing women over.

I don’t believe that’s true. Most trans women are quite poor. Certainly too poor to afford uncovered surgery. I know I never could have.

Under the gatekeeping in that world, you probably wouldn' t have counted as someone eligible for medical transition. So sure, the surgery would have costed less/nothing, but you wouldn' t have been allowed to get it anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Under the gatekeeping in that world, you probably wouldn' t have counted as someone eligible for medical transition. So sure, the surgery would have costed less/nothing, but you wouldn' t have been allowed to get it anyway.

That’s a pretty bold claim. I had noted persistent body dysphoria to a medically significant level of distress, a certainty in identity. The only problem is I don’t pass and couldn’t which some of the old doctors would have denied transition under but that’s well gone the wayside.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I don' t doubt that you have body dysphoria. What I meant is that the gatekeeping I would allow would require for no social dysphoria as well. In short, only people with only body dysphoria would be allowed to get the surgery/hormones. Because if the problem is that you hate your body, then it makes sense that you find a way to change it (I disagree that it' s a good way to go, but I can see why certain people would and I would accept it), but if you hate the social status you have, then allowing medical procedures to fit in better is unethical and regressive.

I would also require a way to prove that it' s an objective diagnosis, which means that psychological evaluation would probably not be enough.

As far as I remember, you have always stated that one of the biggest reasons you want to be considered a woman is that you hate the category of men and don' t want to be associated with it: that would be considered a social issue and would work against you in gaining the possibility of medically transitioning.

That' s why I said I would prefer for it to be considered a cosmetic surgery and that the number of people allowed to transition would be higher in that case: I think it' s pretty impossible to find a person who only has body dysphoria and wasn' t affected by society/sex roles/stereotypes/socialization. That would mean that virtually no person would be allowed to transition, you included.

On the other hand, as I said, cosmetic surgery would eventually drop its prices, allowing way more people to get it.

[–]IceColdLover 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What I meant is that the gatekeeping I would allow would require for no social dysphoria as well.

I didn't even think of this when making my list above but I agree with it. People with social dysphoria around gender roles should not be given hormones nor therapy, which are medical treatments, for something that is a social and societal issue.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Therapy would probably be a good idea. It is something that people with social problems would benefit from regardless of why they have those problems.

Of course it wouldn' t be of the affirming kind: it wouldn' t be the "yes, if you feel bad being a boy, it' s because you' re a girl", it owuld be the "you feel bad being a boy because boys are described a certain way and you don' t recognize yourself into it: now let' s talk about how there are many ways to be a boy, including yours".

I mean, you have therapy for literally anything, sometimes people just need to vent or discuss stuff with someone who won' t really judge them. So I think it should be allowed and that it would be helpful.

But hormones and surgery? Absolutely not. There' s a huge difference between having conversations about your problems and getting freaking surgery that you don' t physically need because of a social problem. It' s nonsense.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

That makes no sense. I could see social dysphoria as insufficient but having it as a bar makes no sense. It would be like saying a depressed person couldn’t have antidepressants because they also had an eating disorder.

Either way your proposal would leave most trans people completely unable to access transition. Let’s say bottom surgery drops 2/3 in price. How many trans women do you think can scratch up 10k? I know of none. I know I couldn’t.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Why does it make no sense? If gender is a social construct, then the solution to make these people happy is to change the social construct, not allowing them to get surgery and make the social problem even worse. If I am in charge of making decisions of this kind, then I need to think about society as well, not just trans people.

Allowing individuals to transition because they have social issues (such as preferring clothes associated with the other sex) means that they are things (talking about the social issues here) that make sense and that the only way to go is to accept them. That we can' t change them, so we should change the people who disagree with those issues. That' s not something I am willing to do. That' s not a GC way to go, and since we are talking about a GC world, it makes no sense that it would be accepted and allowed.

Similarly if you hate men because men are terrible and the tropes associated with them disgust you, the last thing to do is say "you are right those tropes are legitimate, so if you don' t like them you should totally get invasive surgery and voilà!!!!!! Problem solved!!!!". Not gonna happen.

Let’s say bottom surgery drops 2/3 in price. How many trans women do you think can scratch up 10k? I know of none. I know I couldn’t.

I think plenty of them could do it, just not immediately. They would have to wait until they have the money, just like any other person who wants cosmetic surgery because they hate their bodies. I don' t see why trans people should get a preferential treatment here.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I feel like as someone who transitioned further back than most people here, insurance covering surgery is a new thing. I had to save money for it and so did everyone near my age I knew (some of those middle age transitioners with established careers could afford it, but tbh, I don’t even consider us the same thing). It meant I had to delay into my 20s and delay going to college to be able to afford it (and also traveling to Thailand where it was a little more affordable, although I feel like it also might be better there because of some of the horror stories I’ve read). I’m just not sure it’s right to force other people to pay for it.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That seems like an excessively high bar to me, too.

I think physical dysphoria should be a requirement, but social dysphoria should not be a disqualifier. Of course, in my ideal world, all trans people would be entitled to extensive therapy, free of charge, to help them examine what they feel might be causing those issues. If therapy helps to eradicate their social dysphoria, then obviously that's a good outcome. But if both types of dysphoria are still persisting and are severe enough to interfere with the ability to live a normal life, then transition should come up as an option.