GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

You can’t be respectful and not taunting me if you demand that I use language that makes me uncomfortable. It’s not possible.

You can use they/them, my name, or simply not refer to me. You don’t have to say anything.

Can you please explain how women having their safe spaces bars you from public life? Can you please explain how you not having a place you feel safe justifies you taking a safe space from a protected class? “My point was banning is from women’s rooms bans us from public life.” How?

There are two bathrooms. One is illegal to enter one is at best a panic attack and also very likely a beating. That’s the same as having no bathrooms which means we can’t participate in public life.

Why do you think it’s right for you to invade someone else’s safe space? Why do you think it is right to take away safe spaces from girls and women?

I’ll happily use neutral rooms when available. But they basically don’t exist most places or are reserved for families with children. That means the options are the women’s room where I know no one will be harmed by me or the men’s room where I would very likely be harmed. You would ask that I choose the option with the greater chance of harm.

Youd have access to bathrooms, just not the women’s. If you choose not to use the restroom available to you- for whatever reasons- that’s your choice.

Not being allowed somewhere because you will be beaten up isn’t a free choice not to enter.

I used to read the old sub’s comments to my husband. He used to say that if we played the masks/void’s “Don’t Call Me a Man” drinking game we’d get alcohol poisoning. That’s how frequently you demand compelled speech.

That’s not compelled speech. Compelled speech would be asking for you to be required to call me a woman. I’m saying I should have recourse to prevent people from calling me an insult. That’s not compelling speech it’s restricting fighting words, at worst. Which isn’t compelled speech.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

“You can use they/them, my name, or simply not refer to me. You don’t have to say anything.”

I know. And I agree. But what I’m saying is that you telling people what they can’t say is still compelled speech.

“There are two bathrooms. One is illegal to enter one is at best a panic attack and also very likely a beating. That’s the same as having no bathrooms which means we can’t participate in public life.”

Oh! I’m sorry. I didn’t understand that public life was solely about everyone going around peeing in bathrooms. I thought public life was going shopping, going out to eat, hiking, you know- like being in public places. I’ve been living publicly incorrectly for so long! Here I am getting food, exercising, going to the movies, stuff like that, when really I should’ve just been spending my time out of my home solely focused on peeing in the women’s room.

“I’ll happily use neutral rooms when available. But they basically don’t exist most places or are reserved for families with children. That means the options are the women’s room”

So you do believe that it’s fair to rob females of their safe space. At least you finally admit it.

“where I know no one will be harmed by me”

Not the point.

“or the men’s room where I would very likely be harmed. You would ask that I choose the option with the greater chance of harm.”

No. I ask that you respect females enough to not invade their spaces.

“Not being allowed somewhere because you will be beaten up isn’t a free choice not to enter.”

You’re not being allowed to invade spaces that were literally meant to keep you out. Just say you don’t give a fuck about female rights. This skirting the issue stuff you do had got to be exhausting.

“That’s not compelled speech. Compelled speech would be asking for you to be required to call me a woman.”

You’re still telling people what to say by telling them what not to say.

“I’m saying I should have recourse to prevent people from calling me an insult.”

I agree. You should have recourse to prevent people from calling you an insult. The word man is not an insult just because you don’t like it personally.

“That’s not compelling speech it’s restricting fighting words, at worst. Which isn’t compelled speech.”

Lmao sure buddy

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

. I thought public life was going shopping, going out to eat, hiking, you know- like being in public places.

Shopping away from close shops or for more than a few minutes requires a bathroom.

Going out to eat requires a bathroom.

Here I am getting food, exercising, going to the movies, s

Restaraunts require a bathroom. As fo movies. I have to use a bathroom at the gym since powerlifting can cause bladder failure if you aren’t careful.

All those require a bathroom.

No. I ask that you respect females enough to not invade their spaces.

Knowing that this is the option more likely to lead to someone getting hurt.

I only use women’s restrooms when there isn’t another option. I don’t use the locker room at the gym since I can change and shower elsewhere, just the bathroom. I always use a neutral option when there is one. I don’t actually like making people uncomfortable but I also don’t want to get beaten up and that’s the choice I have.

The word man is not an insult just because you don’t like it personally

It’s an insult because it’s always an insult to call trans women men. Not because of my personal objections.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Use the men’s room, find places with neutral Or single stalls. Or pee at home. Still doesn’t justify invading female spaces. The point is- if you choose not use the men’s room and decide that that means you can’t go out- that’s your choice. That’s not females inflicting that on you. You are trying to make females responsible for the difficulties you may face because you’re trans. You being trans has nothing to do with us and we shouldn’t have to be involved. The second you invade our spaces, you involve us. You say you don’t pass. What’s to stop another male (or even a female) from seeing you go into to women’s room, waiting for you to come out, and then beating you up for going into the women’s room?

“Knowing that this is the option more likely to lead to someone getting hurt.”

I’ve never seen that proven. But like I said, why do male on male violence issues mean that women are robbed of their safety? Again- what’s stopping people from noticing you in the women’s room and beating you up for going in there?

“I only use women’s restrooms when there isn’t another option.”

There’s always another option- the men’s room. And even if there isn’t because you don’t want to use it- women deserve to have safe spaces.

“I don’t use the locker room at the gym since I can change and shower elsewhere, just the bathroom.”

In other words “I only disrupt female safe spaces a little bit”

“I always use a neutral option when there is one. I don’t actually like making people uncomfortable but I also don’t want to get beaten up and that’s the choice I have.”

Get a taser. But like I said- what’s stopping anyone from beating you up for noticing you going into or being in the women’s room?

“It’s an insult because it’s always an insult to call trans women men. Not because of my personal objections.”

It’s an insult because it’s an insult, but I’m not gonna explain how it’s an insult. I’m just gonna keep saying it’s an insult. Got it.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Use the men’s room, find places with neutral Or single stalls. Or pee at home.

In some european countries there were no women public toilets at all until 50-60s. In England it was supposed that women would not go far away from home, so they don't need toilets for them - and women's toilets started appearing only during world war, as women were helping everywhere. So women were going to men's toilets, and later to unisex toilets. However, sexual assault cases were the biggest in such spaces and toilets were not designed for women at all (some had only urinals or zero closed cabs), so women fought to get their own female-only safe spaces.

So before getting their own safe spaces, women were pee-ing at home and using men's rooms. Not sure why transwomen can't, before getting their own safe spaces. And "I personally don't feel safe, so I will make everyone of you feel unsafe" is pretty rude and selfish. If you feel bad - that does not mean that everyone must feel bad too. Be happy that other people are good, and fight for yourself to feel good instead.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It’s not about feeling unsafe. I trans about being unsafe. I’ve been attacked in a men’s room personally. It’s not some phantom threat. And that was when I was still big and strong enough to seem a credible threat. Now that I’m substantially smaller the odds of attack are even higher.

You are telling me to abandon public life or accept beatings.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Toilets is not public life, and somehow women were doing public life before, without toilets and safe spaces, until they fought out their own safe spaces.

As I said in post above - fight for your own safe spaces like they did, do not take away someone else's safe spaces. Raise the question about male on male violence and men attacking transwomen specifically. This has nothing to do with female-spaces or human females at all.

I’ve been attacked in a men’s room personally

And so do I.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Restrooms are key to public life. You can’t go to a movie or a restaurant or hell to work without using a bathroom.

Men will never stop being violent to trans women. All we can do is make ourselves safe from them which means not having to be in a single exit confined space alone with them.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men will never stop being violent to other men as well.

And yes, that is what I am saying - fight to achieve your own safe spaces. But do this without compromising other people's safe spaces (women toilets appeared not instead of toilets for disabled, but along them).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Use the men’s room,

Totally unsafe. I could be attacked at any time i enter one.

find places with neutral

I already said they basically don’t exist many places

Or pee at home.

Yeah my point was i couldn’t leave home

You say you don’t pass. What’s to stop another male (or even a female) from seeing you go into to women’s room, waiting for you to come out, and then beating you up for going into the women’s room

Nothing I live in Constant fear of violence but at least in a public area I have room to run or someone might help when I yelled for it

But like I said, why do male on male violence issues mean that women are robbed of their safety?

I will not hurt anyone so in what way are they robbed of safety

There’s always another option- the men’s room

A place I will be beaten up in isn’t an option.

Get a taser.

They’re illegal and I’m a radical pacifist. I don’t believe in violence even in self defense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

“Nothing I live in Constant fear of violence but at least in a public area I have room to run or someone might help when I yelled for it”

Does you voice not work in the men’s room? That’s so weird. My voice works everywhere unless I have lost my voice form being sick or something. You should maybe see a doctor about that. I think it’s hilarious that you have a solution, but act as if it’d only applicable in one bathroom.

“I will not hurt anyone so in what way are they robbed of safety”

You think females will just assume you’re safe? You think normalizing allowing males into female spaces won’t make it easier for a dangerous male to enter?

“A place I will be beaten up in isn’t an option.”

Thought you said you don’t feel safe at all, even when I asked about women’s rooms. You could just as was easily be attacked for going into the women’s room. Which is it?

“They’re illegal”

Stun gun. Pepper spray. Those little cat knuckle key chains. All kinds of self defense items are just readily available.

“and I’m a radical pacifist. I don’t believe in violence even in self defense.”

You will say anything to justify invading female safe spaces lmao

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Does you voice not work in the men’s room? That’s so weird. My voice works everywhere unless I have lost my voice form being sick or something. You should maybe see a doctor about that. I think it’s hilarious that you have a solution, but act as if it’d only applicable in one bathroom.

I can’t run in a men’s room. And no one in a men’s room would help men. They’re men.

You think females will just assume you’re safe?

I didn’t say no one would be uncomfortable. I said I wouldn’t hurt anyone.

You think normalizing allowing males into female spaces won’t make it easier for a dangerous male to enter?

I wouldn’t object to standards like post op or time on hormones to mitigate that.

Thought you said you don’t feel safe at all, even when I asked about women’s rooms. You could just as was easily be attacked for going into the women’s room. Which is it?

I’m not going to be attacked in a women’s room. Only outside it. As such since I have room to run then or a chance for help, it’s substantially safer. Not to mention that public presence makes violence less likely since there are witnesses. Unlike the privacy in a restroom.

You will say anything to justify invading female safe spaces lmao

I was a bad person pre transition. I wanted to die so I started fights hoping to be hurt because I hated myself. I decided that part of being a better person should be me giving up violence. I might defend someone else if the occasion but I decided I would let someone kill me rather than risk hurting them because I wanted to distance myself from the hate I used to have for the world.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

“I can’t run in a men’s room. And no one in a men’s room would help men. They’re men.”

Damn, so your legs and your voice don’t work? You think people (must be women, since as you said men won’t help) would help if they heard screaming in the men’s room, only the women’s? That’s ridiculous.

“I didn’t say no one would be uncomfortable. I said I wouldn’t hurt anyone.”

The point is you’d make them feel unsafe in a space meant to make them feel safe.

“I wouldn’t object to standards like post op or time on hormones to mitigate that.”

So you want to carry around something telling people how long you’ve been transitioning and also make people display their genitals to access the female bathroom? And you’d willingly throw other transwomen who’d be just as unsafe as you into the men’s room. Wow. Way to stand by your community.

“I’m not going to be attacked in a women’s room. Only outside it.”

This is not true. I’ve seen several stories of transwomen being attacked in the women’s room. And what difference does it make where you get attacked if you get attacked for the same reason?

“As such since I have room to run then or a chance for help, it’s substantially safer.”

I’ve been in plenty of men’s rooms and they always seem to have the same amount of space, if not more. If you have room in the women’s room you have room in the men’s.

“Not to mention that public presence makes violence less likely since there are witnesses.”

When did men’s room become private but women’s rooms public???

“Unlike the privacy in a restroom.”

Lmao

“I was a bad person pre transition. I wanted to die so I started fights hoping to be hurt because I hated myself. I decided that part of being a better person should be me giving up violence.”

But not that part of being a better person should be you respecting females enough to leave them alone and stay out fo their spaces? That’s... nevermind.

“I might defend someone else if the occasion but I decided I would let someone kill me rather than risk hurting them because I wanted to distance myself from the hate I used to have for the world.”

That’s your personal choice, doesn’t justify what you’re taking from females.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Damn, so your legs and your voice don’t work?

You can’t run in a confined space

You think people would help if they heard screaming in the men’s room, only the women’s?

They aren’t going to run into the men’s To help obviously

So you want to carry around something telling people how long you’ve been transitioning and also make people display their genitals to access the female bathroom? And you’d willingly throw other transwomen who’d be just as unsafe as you into the men’s room. Wow. Way to stand by your community.

Not ideally but I’m willing to compromise

This is not true. I’ve seen several stories of transwomen being attacked in the women’s room. And what difference does it make where you get attacked if you get attacked for the same reason?

It’s less likely and women are less likely to seriously injure me.

I’ve been in plenty of men’s rooms and they always seem to have the same amount of space, if not more. If you have room in the women’s room you have room in the men’s. “Not to mention that public presence makes violence less likely since there are witnesses.” When did men’s room become private but women’s rooms public???

I was saying outside a women’s ba inside a men’s

It means that use the men’s and take anyone who attacks you is morally in compatible inaddition to suicidal.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No. Invade female spaces and robbing them of a safe space is morally incompatible. Find a solution that doesn’t involve females. This has nothing to do with females. Don’t drag us or our spaces into your issues.