The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (59 children)

I think the OP is talking about sex. And there’s a much stronger argument to be made supporting transwomen being men than women, particularly when we are discussing sex. No matter what a transwoman does to their body they will never be close to female, they will never have a female body- so it does make more sense imo to class/categorize them with men. If the choice is men or women, male or female, they are literally male and men. Transwomen being considered women is an opinion, it’s not fact. Transwomen being male and men is factual. Idk how to word that more politely, it was easier to just be blunt and I apologize for the wording, I’m just saying that when it comes down to it, transwomen are closer to men than they will ever be to women. It doesn’t matter if a transwoman is weaker than another male or even weaker than a female- they still aren’t females themselves.

[–]divingrightintowork 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I said this in another space, seems relevant here - AFIAK there is nothing female, medically, about a transwoman, and there is nothing male about a transman, medically.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (57 children)

I have nothing in common with men. Grouping men with trans women makes no sense on any logical metric. W have different bodies, different social experiences, different legal standing, different social dynamics as far as economic power. I have absolutely nothing other than a chromosome with men.

Argue we aren’t women if you want but there is no argument that even reasonably treats social realities to put us with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Everything you’re saying you don’t have in common with men, you also don’t have in common with women. So if you have chromosomes in common with one, and nothing else in common with either... you still have more in common with one (men) than the other (women). Nobody is talking about society- again we are talking about sex. The differences between transwomen and other males only exists after transitioning- you were all born (and remain) the same sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

I have more in common with women than men but again I am not here arguing we are women, just that it is utter nonsense to group us with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

I disagree about transwomen having more in common with women. Women are not all the same. You’re ingoring the part about sex. That’s the most important commonality amongst the female sex. It’s the commonality. And you don’t have that. You have more in common biologically with other males than you ever will with females. That’s my point. So if we are categorizing or grouping or whatever- it is unfair to females to force them to be grouped with males and it also makes significantly more sense to group transwomen with other males. You can deny it and reject it personally as much as you need to- it doesn’t change the facts.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was sitting on one gaming discord for "girl gamers" and after few weeks I perfectly knew who is there are females and who are transwomen, just based on behaviour and their concerns alone. And other women were grouping together too, and transwomen were grouping with themselves, so seems people just subconciously and by interests are noticing differences and similarities. If I do not see visually person, I am almost always asuming that transwoman is a man, just because they discuss what men discuss (plus some cloths and make-up sometimes), they act like men are socialized to act, they care much less about others than women around, and so on. If I am discussing anything with transwomen, I am discussing same things I'll discuss with men, just because they are not understanding me when I am discussing "women things". In contrary - with transmen I have much more in common and I can discuss much more things, and I even can help them with their troubles, because I know women with PCOS and testosterone problems and how those are affecting female body, so I have some knowledge and experience. And in general, a lot of our experiences are very common, even when they are passing visually as a man, most of their troubles and experiences are still similar to mine. Especially nowadays, when I became very commanding woman in charge of a department and I've trained people around to respect me and my boundaries, and answering to their entitlement with my own (some time ago people were even calling me "missis Mister" when referring to me behind my eyes). And that is me only speaking about social aspect, socialization and common experiences. I haven't even started talking about biological differences...

So yeah, I totaly agree here with you. Maybe transwomen have not much common with men (maybe they have common with GNC or gay men, tho?), but with women they have even less common ground.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (37 children)

You have more in common biologically with other males than you ever will with females.

That’s not true. The vast majority of my body is more in line with a woman’s. Every system is effected by hormones and no part of my body matches a man’s. Again you can say we aren’t women but you can’t sensibly say we are the same as men.

There is no metric actually helped by grouping trans women with men other than “keep trans women away from natal women” and even that can be done just as well by separating us from either.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Lmao if that’s what you need to tell yourself go ahead. Doesn’t make it true. I acknowledge that you’ve altered your body to resemble the female form. Doesn’t make you any less of a male. A transwoman is a male- so imo, a transwoman’s body is male no matter what they do. I take no issue with transwomen havingspaces and opportunities separate from other males and all females- I’m saying that factually, actually, biologically, physically, even mentally- transwomen are no less male than any other male. A non trans male taking cross sex hormones would still experience changes in their appearance, a non trans male having cosmetic surgery to resemble a female form would look like a trans woman (idk why they’d do this to be fair, but the point is- anything you can do to claim womanhood or claim to be “not a man” any other male has the option of, if health and finances allow.). That’s what I took away from this post. There’s less separating you than you are willing to acknowledge. There’s nothing you’ll say that would change that truth. Transwomen are a subcategory of males, doesn’t mean they are less male, it means they’ve taken steps to alter their appearance to resemble the female form. If it makes you happier that’s great. Doesn’t change anything significant about your sex or where it would make the most sense to the majority of people to group you. Just because your body may look female on the outside, doesn’t mean that internally we have anything in common. Transwomen would be all ornament and no function. It’s pretty insulting to females to claim that you are more in line with us. And it shows how little you understand the female body.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

This has become pretty petty and insulting so I’m stopping.

I expected better from you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Petty? Where? You expected me to not be frank about how I view things? Or to pretend that what you said makes any sense rather than it being you clinging to what you want so desperately to be true? Oh, Masks, it’s like the reddit sub all over again. You always run away when you have no response. You always accuse people of things when you have no rebuttal. There was no pettiness, there was a response to what you were saying. What you said is wishful thinking. But go ahead. Do what you gotta do.

(Maybe this comment was petty, the rest weren’t)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I’ve told you I’m not continuing this thread since you’ve clearly just decided insults are what should happen. Please leave me alone.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I am not writting this to offend you, however, you aren't really correct in this case.

Bone structure, sekeletal structure, bone density and muscular structure are still like ones of a male. Once they are started forming in womb, formed around age of 5-6 and solidified around age of 12-16, they can't be changed. And then other differences - like heart and lunghs size and functionality, they are different (it once almost cost me life, when I had heart attack and doctor was only tought how to deal with male heart attacks), metabolism is still different, it all is not affected by hormones or hormonal levels. Things like colonel is not 20-30% longer like female one, and still the size of a male one. Hip sway is still impossible, because bones are connected in straight line, not on angle, pelvis is still same as male one, and not connected to legs on a rolling joint, but on a straight one, so you will still outrun any woman, just based on skeletal structure. Some of muscles are going same way as male ones as well, like ones around hips. And much much more differences.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Bone structure, sekeletal structure, bone density and muscular structure are still like ones of a male.

You are incorrect. Substantial muscle mass is lost on hormones. 10-15 percent at least in the most conservative study I’ve seen published. Bone loss also occurs and increased osteoporosis risk is a noted effect of long term transition.

I don’t know why you are talking about athletic performance here. I am against trans women competing in sports altogether, as I’ve stated it makes no sense to group us with men and it’s actively unsafe for numerous reasons to have us compete with them even if we ignored the fact that they are so athletically superior we couldn’t compete but I’m not convinced there wouldn’t be some level of residual advantage over natal women so no sports for us is the only logical conclusion, but that also doesn’t contravene my point that pairing us with men makes no sense.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I was not speaking about mass, I was talking that it does not change the structure, just makes them weaker.

And I'd say that most GC are fine with the position for you to have new your own leagues, safe spaces, and so on. Problem is invading female spaces or letting bad actors to have ability to make safe spaces - unsafe.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

... you literally said bone density. But nit the point.

Trans specific leagues/spaces etc aren’t generally workable unfortunately.

You can’t run a trans shelter when there are predicted to be less than 200 trans women in the whole of a small city. Or a sports league. It just can’t be justified to most people to spend money and a sport can’t function with so few people.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Grouping men with trans women makes no sense on any logical metric. W have different bodies, different social experiences, different legal standing, different social dynamics as far as economic power.

there are literally billions of men on this planet. No man is just like every other man. The only reason to group such a large number of people together is due to a very general shared trait, like a chromosome. You have some medical tendencies in common. You should be looked at in column a instead of column b when considering issue such-and-such. It gets really broad from there.

Is your body more male or female? Well, do you have a uterus or a prostate? If you have neither, did you start with either one? Were your social experiences more like one or the other - did you feel worried about getting pregnant when you were young? Or an expectation to have a kid? Are you scared to speak up since you'll be seen as bossy...

Trans women may be their own group but it hardly makes sense if they don't start as men. Otherwise what are they "trans"-ing from? There is nothing wrong with having a particular experience that includes being part of a male category.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

We aren’t men. And it makes no sense to group us with them.

I’m not saying you need to call us women, I’m saying calling us men is so off the mark it makes any kind of class analysis too inaccurate to be of use.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

To me, if you still have a penis, it is not "so far off the mark" to call you men, even if it may be a very specific subclass who are very different from others. But there are lots of kinds of male humans unlike most others in many important ways - people with disabilities or distinctive genetic abnormalities, or types... And even men who no longer have penises had one at one point, have prostates, never had ovaries or a uterus... The grouping of male and female is just - if you can reproduce, which part do you offer. If you have a reproductive system, or ever did, then you have a sex.

If you like to dress like Lana Turner, that's a style thing. There may be more women than men into it, but it's not decided by sex, and plenty of women are not into feminine-conforming stuff, while there's always been a subset of (mostly gay, queen, transvestite) guys who are. What do you think trans women share with all women that they don't share with men ?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Through out the history current "feminine" look was men's only fashion - like high heels, white make-up on face, troucers and dress-like cloths or skirts. And modern "feminine" behaviour was "royal men" behaviour. Nowadays in some cultures it is still men's behaviour. As one person had written here - if a transwoman pre-op will pass the border with such country, where it is manly to look like that and most men around are walking like that, will that transwoman become a man now? As there will be no difference, except hormone therapy between that transwoman and regular men around.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Hormone balances, breasts and related health concerns, General social groupings, vulnerability to and general distrust of men among others.

But as I said my point wasn’t asserting we are women but rather that we are not men by any relevant metric. It renders social discussions pointless to say I am the same as a man because the class is then essentially meaningless from any kind of class based perspective.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But there are lots of men who are vulnerable or don't "fit into class based perspectives" whatever that means exactly. What about males who are wheelchair bound, or dwarfs, or veterans, or minority races or elderly or gay, for a start?

Hormones only applies to people taking hormones, and then it only to the amount they take. Even if some men take some women's hormones, they still will have bodies built by male hormones, and they still will produce more male hormones than women, so the end result is still more male. If they still have a penis, testicles, a prostate, male hips, an adam's apple, or a male bone structure for example, it's hard to say they're not fundamentally men. Men have breasts and breast cancer to start with - not to the same degree as women, but it's a thing. They don't have menses, uterus-related health issues, needs to see a gynecologist. They do have more heart attacks.

Those are the kinds of health related concerns trans women should align themselves according to. Do they have female-typical heart attacks, or male-typical heart attacks? Do they get breast cancer at rates like women or men? If trans people (male and female) are starting a new middle type, it would require a certain amount of hormone/physical? measurement for someone to be considered a valid member.

But all I mean when I say "man" is person who has a male body, is more likely to get a heart attack that centers at the heart, might be able to pee standing up or supply his half of the DNA with the option to leave, doesn't bleed from the groin regularly, that sort of thing. What a male person does with that body, how they choose to use it and how they alter it, is a whole story of their own, and I have known plenty of unique men (and women) who don't fit into any stereotypes or "class based perspectives" or whatever. They just have certain chromosomes that start them off with certain benefits and burdens. Sex doesn't define you. It's just a component of how we come into the world.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am very feminine looking and sounding man, I am often mistakened for a woman if people do not see my face or if it is phone call. Even in the internet people often think that I am a woman because I am very calm and polite. And I do like wearing "dress-like" cloths made for men (roman toga, for example) during hot weather - just because it is more comfortable to wear it than going around in shorts or pants.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Those men are still men and not so different from the idea of men as a class than trans women.

and they still will produce more male hormones than women

This is not true. Post op trans women have no production beyond natal women. And either way the health concerns from an estrogen primary system are not the same health concerns as men.

We have an elevated risk of vein thrombosis as compared to men at least though I don’t know if there is good info on heart attacks specifically.

They have breast cancer at closer to female rates since it’s in part based on amount of tissue, but we have a near negligible risk of prostate cancer again due to different amounts of tissue. That’s a perfect illustration of my point. I will never need a testicular exam or routine prostate exams but I will need mammograms so if insurance just calls me a man it could lead to necessary things uncovered.

Defining trans women as men does harm. Wild levels of harm to trans women. Put a trans woman in a men’s prison, she’ll be raped or killed basically guaranteed. The health coverage concerns I just brought up. I can’t use a men’s room safely which literally effects every thing I do outside the home. If you are talking about statistics we are wild outliers in so many metrics that any large scale analysis fails to provide accurate info with respect to us with that grouping. It leads to a lack of necessary legal protections. Men statistically are less likely to face workplace discrimination so taking that large scale analysis it’s easy to argue that trans women don’t need it even though trans targeted information shows more than half of ya have directly experienced work place discrimination.

I’m not saying you have to call us women but grouping is with men is absolutely not appropriate.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

This is not true. Post op trans women have no production beyond natal women. And either way the health concerns from an estrogen primary system are not the same health concerns as men. We have an elevated risk of vein thrombosis as compared to men at least though I don’t know if there is good info on heart attacks specifically. They have breast cancer at closer to female rates since it’s in part based on amount of tissue, but we have a near negligible risk of prostate cancer again due to different amounts of tissue. That’s a perfect illustration of my point. I will never need a testicular exam or routine prostate exams but I will need mammograms so if insurance just calls me a man it could lead to necessary things uncovered.

I like it when we agree on things. :)

Post-op transwomen have very different medical concerns than other males. I do wonder if transition age affects breast cancer risk. I’ve been told I’ll need mammograms when I get to 40 (and obviously, I get breast exams now), but I wonder if the risk is lessened if someone developed breast tissue later.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That’s an interesting question. It’s actually a real problem how little info we have medically on trans people but given the minuscule possible sample size it has to be very difficult to get good data.