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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would love to see an explanation of why feelings about gender take over physical reality that isn’t straight up lies about hormones making all transwomen teensy dainty weaklings who magically received male socialisation without it having any effect.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Old UK Gender Equality Act was good enough, I am not sure why it should be changed. While self-ID laws are poorly written and are making it easy to any bad actors to abuse them - it is easily seen in prison population, 1 in 30-50 prisoners (depending on prison and country) is starting to transition and demanding place in women's prison, which is few dozen times bigger ratio than in general population (and similar situation in sports, men who are behind are starting to transition and demanding place in women's sports). This will give us two conclusions: Either transwomen are much more often comitting crimes than natal men or women, or those people aren't really transgenders and are just abusing self-ID laws for personal gains. I am leaning towards latter conclusion.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Is there a question you are trying to ask or are you just stating your opinion?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (102 children)

I have nothing in common with men.

Physiologically hormone differences represent substantial physical differences.

Socially we have neither the same aims nor the same rights or economic or social power. I can’t even stand to be in the same room with a cis man.

You can argue we aren’t women and still be at least reasonable but arguing that trans women are not different from cis men is actual nonsense.

[–]comradeconradical 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (82 children)

I agree that hormone treatment and SRS can alter some transwoman to lower male physical levels of strength, but a transwoman in general is always stronger than the average woman and has none of the physical reproductive organs or stature than biological women have.

So, transwomen may not be 'men' by the gender term, but they are still 'male'. Secondary sex characteristics like breasts that don't function to feed a baby are purely aesthetic in transwomen and don't make them female. Transwomen and women also don't have the same economic or social concerns as they are not the same.

Transwomen are not female, and thus to call them women is to reduce womanhood to gender norms, which is detrimental to female rights. Transwomen are not men either, despite being male. They are transwomen.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (20 children)


Trans women can breast feed. Not as easily as cis women but they can't. Saying their breast are purely asthetic isnt correct.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

The liquid discharge that some male nipples secrete is not breast milk and will not nourish a baby.

It's not comparable and fallacious to compare the two. Transwomens' breasts are indeed purely aesthetic.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The fact that there are multiple men out there trying to feed a baby with their man-nips is vomit inducing. A baby being used in a fetish.

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's honestly madness.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Quetzals post is honestly peaking material.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I feel like it’s sort of a weird thing to do (especially in that case since the child’s biological mother was their partner and perfectly capable of doing that without medical intervention), but there was a article about it awhile back. I don’t really think that matters for whether someone considers transwomen to be women though.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Ahhhh so this one trans person required an intense experimental medical regimen to produce nowhere near the amount or content that a woman produces, has unknown effects on the trans person and the child, and has not had its nutritional content verified. The article even says this practice is not recommended.

This is not something that naturally happens like with a female, and I wouldn't feed my child with this male lactation. In fact, the transwoman in your article didn't even feed their kid with it.

I think my point still stands, that for all intents and purposes the secondary sex characteristics that transwomen develop are not linked to female reproductive capacity, the very reason there characteristics exist in the first place. In transwomen they are largely if not entirely aesthetic, how could they not be?

A transwoman will never have to worry about the same sex-related issues that a woman will. As for gender stereotypes, these (unfortunately) arose because of sex differences. Yes, passing transwomen will likely experience some forms of misogyny. But they can never experience the full scope of being female.

I don't think it's wrong to say transwomen are transwomen, not women, as we clearly have different life experiences and challenges, both psychologically and physically.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Okay, I think we basically agree. I just wanted to make that small correction. Transwomen’s experiences are that and I aren’t going to be the same as females even if there some shared experiences (if someone passes). It can be it’s own thing and I feel like that is fine. It’s hard not to feel a little hurt if your body is reduced to some purely aesthetic thing though. I’m a person whose body does the same things for them that other people’s do, except for reproduction. I understand the point you are making though.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I see your perspective too and it was interesting to read the article. I just don't really understand why many transwomen seem to think they literally are women indistinguishable from female women, because females are indeed oppressed throughout the world according to sex, and no amount of self-identification or medical treatment will truly change this. I understand the dysphoria of wanting to be the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean sex is arbitrary and doesn't exist beyond gender presentation.

I'm not quite sure what your point is by saying your body does what everyone else's does except reproduction. Because yes, regardless of sex, we are all human beings with certain capacities. Healthy, we are able to move and eat, etc. But, it is sex capacities that differentiate between males and females, measurably. And these differences in sexual functioning are base to our experiences in our society.

Also, a woman who gets a breast job does so for aesthetic purposes, as does a transwoman. In either case they both have functional human bodies. Is it hurtful to say this surgery or hormonal treatment is aesthetic? Isn't it just truthful? It may make both feel better, which is good and is their choice and their right, but that doesn't mean it's not about aesthetics.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

It’s not about aesthetics though. I’m way uglier having transitioned. So from an aesthetic standpoint it would have been a pure negative. However I am much happier and more comfortable in my body. It’s a matter of mental health not aesthetics and treating it like a breast augmentation is at best dismissive.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Aesthetics doesnt mean beautiful.

You prefer the aesthetics of a female-looking body. The shape of having breasts rather than a flat chest.

The women who get breast augmentation also do so due to body issues and adverse effect on mental wellbeing. I can turn it around and say you sound dismissive of them.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

It's not fallacious. I don't expect you to know of the case where a trans woman was able to breast feed [after a strict hormone regiment, but that's to be expected]. But Id expect you to be curious and Google search, before calling bullshit.

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

lmao I did google 'male nipple discharge' which can be caused by low testosterone, and is still not breastmilk.

And the experimental trans lactation that occurred in one case is not breastmilk either and was not recommended for infant consumption. More interesting and relevant I think would be to look at non-mother females who are induced to breastfeed. Would even they have the proper breastmilk to feed a baby, having never given birth? Because if you didn't know, women lactate after giving birth, which involves massive hormonal fluctuations and biological triggers.

I'd expect you to actually care about the nutrients we feed babies when considering the functionality of breasts. But, I'm always vigilant when hearing trans people talking about lactation, because if you weren't aware, it's at the very worst a fetish that comes up often enough along with menstruation simulation.

In summary, yeah I still don't see how you can consider a transwomen's breasts as actually functional beyond aesthetics :)

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Not sure where you got the "not recommended for infant consumption" part from. No article I can find on the subject mentions that. Actually quite the opposite.

Maybe we're talking different cases? Mine is from. 2018. Best article is in the NYT. Also male nipple discharge may not be the best term to Google this topic.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, the one from 2017 says its not recommended for infant consumption, and the one from 2018 says it's unknown if it has the same nutrients as female breast milk. And considering how transwomen are on a steady diet of artificial hormones, which would go into the milk if it's actually anything like real breastfeeding, then no one in their right mind would feed a baby with it.

Not sure where you're getting "quite the opposite", because the only positive discussed is for the transwomen who want "the full woman experience" which is cringey enough in itself and has nothing to do with infant care.

To reiterate my main argument here because we clearly won't agree on this subtopic: medical treatment does not change sex. Transwomen are not women nor are they men. They are male, and they are transwomen. They can never be female or know what that truly entails. There are measurable differences between the sexes and these are important to consider regarding health and law.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (60 children)

a transwoman in general is always stronger than the average woman

I don’t actually think this is true. I think training has more effect than the physiological differences between trans women and natal women, and I think training being equal a trans woman may have a slight advantage but I don’t agree trans women will always be stronger than average women. Weak trans women will fall below average women and well below fit women.

I literally just said it was open to argument whether we were women. I consider myself a woman but I acknowledge there are reasonable arguments against it. But the op was asserting that there should be no distinction made of any kind between men and trans women and that is what I object to. I think it’s possible to argue for a third categorization reasonably and theoretically without being bigoted but that isn’t the case for simply arguing we are men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (59 children)

I think the OP is talking about sex. And there’s a much stronger argument to be made supporting transwomen being men than women, particularly when we are discussing sex. No matter what a transwoman does to their body they will never be close to female, they will never have a female body- so it does make more sense imo to class/categorize them with men. If the choice is men or women, male or female, they are literally male and men. Transwomen being considered women is an opinion, it’s not fact. Transwomen being male and men is factual. Idk how to word that more politely, it was easier to just be blunt and I apologize for the wording, I’m just saying that when it comes down to it, transwomen are closer to men than they will ever be to women. It doesn’t matter if a transwoman is weaker than another male or even weaker than a female- they still aren’t females themselves.

[–]divingrightintowork 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I said this in another space, seems relevant here - AFIAK there is nothing female, medically, about a transwoman, and there is nothing male about a transman, medically.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (57 children)

I have nothing in common with men. Grouping men with trans women makes no sense on any logical metric. W have different bodies, different social experiences, different legal standing, different social dynamics as far as economic power. I have absolutely nothing other than a chromosome with men.

Argue we aren’t women if you want but there is no argument that even reasonably treats social realities to put us with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Everything you’re saying you don’t have in common with men, you also don’t have in common with women. So if you have chromosomes in common with one, and nothing else in common with either... you still have more in common with one (men) than the other (women). Nobody is talking about society- again we are talking about sex. The differences between transwomen and other males only exists after transitioning- you were all born (and remain) the same sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

I have more in common with women than men but again I am not here arguing we are women, just that it is utter nonsense to group us with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

I disagree about transwomen having more in common with women. Women are not all the same. You’re ingoring the part about sex. That’s the most important commonality amongst the female sex. It’s the commonality. And you don’t have that. You have more in common biologically with other males than you ever will with females. That’s my point. So if we are categorizing or grouping or whatever- it is unfair to females to force them to be grouped with males and it also makes significantly more sense to group transwomen with other males. You can deny it and reject it personally as much as you need to- it doesn’t change the facts.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was sitting on one gaming discord for "girl gamers" and after few weeks I perfectly knew who is there are females and who are transwomen, just based on behaviour and their concerns alone. And other women were grouping together too, and transwomen were grouping with themselves, so seems people just subconciously and by interests are noticing differences and similarities. If I do not see visually person, I am almost always asuming that transwoman is a man, just because they discuss what men discuss (plus some cloths and make-up sometimes), they act like men are socialized to act, they care much less about others than women around, and so on. If I am discussing anything with transwomen, I am discussing same things I'll discuss with men, just because they are not understanding me when I am discussing "women things". In contrary - with transmen I have much more in common and I can discuss much more things, and I even can help them with their troubles, because I know women with PCOS and testosterone problems and how those are affecting female body, so I have some knowledge and experience. And in general, a lot of our experiences are very common, even when they are passing visually as a man, most of their troubles and experiences are still similar to mine. Especially nowadays, when I became very commanding woman in charge of a department and I've trained people around to respect me and my boundaries, and answering to their entitlement with my own (some time ago people were even calling me "missis Mister" when referring to me behind my eyes). And that is me only speaking about social aspect, socialization and common experiences. I haven't even started talking about biological differences...

So yeah, I totaly agree here with you. Maybe transwomen have not much common with men (maybe they have common with GNC or gay men, tho?), but with women they have even less common ground.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (37 children)

You have more in common biologically with other males than you ever will with females.

That’s not true. The vast majority of my body is more in line with a woman’s. Every system is effected by hormones and no part of my body matches a man’s. Again you can say we aren’t women but you can’t sensibly say we are the same as men.

There is no metric actually helped by grouping trans women with men other than “keep trans women away from natal women” and even that can be done just as well by separating us from either.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Lmao if that’s what you need to tell yourself go ahead. Doesn’t make it true. I acknowledge that you’ve altered your body to resemble the female form. Doesn’t make you any less of a male. A transwoman is a male- so imo, a transwoman’s body is male no matter what they do. I take no issue with transwomen havingspaces and opportunities separate from other males and all females- I’m saying that factually, actually, biologically, physically, even mentally- transwomen are no less male than any other male. A non trans male taking cross sex hormones would still experience changes in their appearance, a non trans male having cosmetic surgery to resemble a female form would look like a trans woman (idk why they’d do this to be fair, but the point is- anything you can do to claim womanhood or claim to be “not a man” any other male has the option of, if health and finances allow.). That’s what I took away from this post. There’s less separating you than you are willing to acknowledge. There’s nothing you’ll say that would change that truth. Transwomen are a subcategory of males, doesn’t mean they are less male, it means they’ve taken steps to alter their appearance to resemble the female form. If it makes you happier that’s great. Doesn’t change anything significant about your sex or where it would make the most sense to the majority of people to group you. Just because your body may look female on the outside, doesn’t mean that internally we have anything in common. Transwomen would be all ornament and no function. It’s pretty insulting to females to claim that you are more in line with us. And it shows how little you understand the female body.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I am not writting this to offend you, however, you aren't really correct in this case.

Bone structure, sekeletal structure, bone density and muscular structure are still like ones of a male. Once they are started forming in womb, formed around age of 5-6 and solidified around age of 12-16, they can't be changed. And then other differences - like heart and lunghs size and functionality, they are different (it once almost cost me life, when I had heart attack and doctor was only tought how to deal with male heart attacks), metabolism is still different, it all is not affected by hormones or hormonal levels. Things like colonel is not 20-30% longer like female one, and still the size of a male one. Hip sway is still impossible, because bones are connected in straight line, not on angle, pelvis is still same as male one, and not connected to legs on a rolling joint, but on a straight one, so you will still outrun any woman, just based on skeletal structure. Some of muscles are going same way as male ones as well, like ones around hips. And much much more differences.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Grouping men with trans women makes no sense on any logical metric. W have different bodies, different social experiences, different legal standing, different social dynamics as far as economic power.

there are literally billions of men on this planet. No man is just like every other man. The only reason to group such a large number of people together is due to a very general shared trait, like a chromosome. You have some medical tendencies in common. You should be looked at in column a instead of column b when considering issue such-and-such. It gets really broad from there.

Is your body more male or female? Well, do you have a uterus or a prostate? If you have neither, did you start with either one? Were your social experiences more like one or the other - did you feel worried about getting pregnant when you were young? Or an expectation to have a kid? Are you scared to speak up since you'll be seen as bossy...

Trans women may be their own group but it hardly makes sense if they don't start as men. Otherwise what are they "trans"-ing from? There is nothing wrong with having a particular experience that includes being part of a male category.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

We aren’t men. And it makes no sense to group us with them.

I’m not saying you need to call us women, I’m saying calling us men is so off the mark it makes any kind of class analysis too inaccurate to be of use.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

To me, if you still have a penis, it is not "so far off the mark" to call you men, even if it may be a very specific subclass who are very different from others. But there are lots of kinds of male humans unlike most others in many important ways - people with disabilities or distinctive genetic abnormalities, or types... And even men who no longer have penises had one at one point, have prostates, never had ovaries or a uterus... The grouping of male and female is just - if you can reproduce, which part do you offer. If you have a reproductive system, or ever did, then you have a sex.

If you like to dress like Lana Turner, that's a style thing. There may be more women than men into it, but it's not decided by sex, and plenty of women are not into feminine-conforming stuff, while there's always been a subset of (mostly gay, queen, transvestite) guys who are. What do you think trans women share with all women that they don't share with men ?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Through out the history current "feminine" look was men's only fashion - like high heels, white make-up on face, troucers and dress-like cloths or skirts. And modern "feminine" behaviour was "royal men" behaviour. Nowadays in some cultures it is still men's behaviour. As one person had written here - if a transwoman pre-op will pass the border with such country, where it is manly to look like that and most men around are walking like that, will that transwoman become a man now? As there will be no difference, except hormone therapy between that transwoman and regular men around.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Hormone balances, breasts and related health concerns, General social groupings, vulnerability to and general distrust of men among others.

But as I said my point wasn’t asserting we are women but rather that we are not men by any relevant metric. It renders social discussions pointless to say I am the same as a man because the class is then essentially meaningless from any kind of class based perspective.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But there are lots of men who are vulnerable or don't "fit into class based perspectives" whatever that means exactly. What about males who are wheelchair bound, or dwarfs, or veterans, or minority races or elderly or gay, for a start?

Hormones only applies to people taking hormones, and then it only to the amount they take. Even if some men take some women's hormones, they still will have bodies built by male hormones, and they still will produce more male hormones than women, so the end result is still more male. If they still have a penis, testicles, a prostate, male hips, an adam's apple, or a male bone structure for example, it's hard to say they're not fundamentally men. Men have breasts and breast cancer to start with - not to the same degree as women, but it's a thing. They don't have menses, uterus-related health issues, needs to see a gynecologist. They do have more heart attacks.

Those are the kinds of health related concerns trans women should align themselves according to. Do they have female-typical heart attacks, or male-typical heart attacks? Do they get breast cancer at rates like women or men? If trans people (male and female) are starting a new middle type, it would require a certain amount of hormone/physical? measurement for someone to be considered a valid member.

But all I mean when I say "man" is person who has a male body, is more likely to get a heart attack that centers at the heart, might be able to pee standing up or supply his half of the DNA with the option to leave, doesn't bleed from the groin regularly, that sort of thing. What a male person does with that body, how they choose to use it and how they alter it, is a whole story of their own, and I have known plenty of unique men (and women) who don't fit into any stereotypes or "class based perspectives" or whatever. They just have certain chromosomes that start them off with certain benefits and burdens. Sex doesn't define you. It's just a component of how we come into the world.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

What about the socialisation you received as a child? We’re you treated as a girl from birth? Otherwise, you received a male socialisation during your main developmental phase and this shapes your personality to a great degree.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It made me hate men and anything remotely to do with masculinity. I don’t think that’s what “male socialization” does to men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

They didn’t ask if you had male socialization or how you felt about it, though you acknowledged that you did receive it. They asked if you received female socialization. Also- guess what? A lot of females have had adverse reactions to our socialization, too. trans or not- anyone can have a negative association with/reaction to how they were socialized.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It shaped you. It also wasn’t female socialisation. Hating masculinity doesn’t mean the same thing as having an absence of it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

It didn’t shape me as a man. And I don’t have masculinity. I’ve in fact devoted a substantial portion of my life specifically to not having masculinity. I’m not arguing I’m a woman, though I think I am. I am arguing I’m not a man.

[–]florasis 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Do you XY chromosome and dick? Congrats you're man. Doesn't matter if you hate it, is your biology

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Removed for misgendering. It is okay to misgender a group or a public figure, but not other users. There are suggestions for terms to use in the side bar. Also, male or female are not misgendering.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Do you XY chromosome

Likely but I’ve never had a kereotype test so I can’t be sure.

and dick


Congrats you're man. Doesn't matter if you hate it, is your biology

I disagree.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s not how socialisation and development works but ok. Whatever you need to tell yourself.

[–]BayHorseGender Critical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not liking the socialization you've received doesn't make you not a man. I didn't like receiving female socialization, I've even thought I was actually a man at some point, but that doesn't make me "not a woman".

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Out of curiosity, what about a man like John Maclean?

Do you see yourself as similar to him at at all? He's not exactly your standard man. Do you think you could stand to be in the same room together?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Do you see yourself as similar to him at at all?

No. He identified as a guy right? And I don’t believe he has had hormones or anything. He’s just a feminine guy and that’s not the same as being a trans women.

Do you think you could stand to be in the same room together?

I’d be uncomfortable but not as uncomfortable as with your average cis het dude. I’m assuming he is gay so that’s a substantially lower chance he would attack me or anything but unless he’s physically transitioned he’s just a pretty guy.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks for the reply. My thinking was that he would not experience male privilege in the same way that standard men do. His social aims would be more similar to yours than the average man. If he goes out in public dressed like he does, with makeup, he's going to be treated like a trans woman, not a feminine man.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Perhaps he may be treated worse and that’s why I would be more comfortable alone with him than a cis her guy but he still thinks of himself as a man. I’m more comfortable around cis gay guys than cis het guys but I’d still never feel safe alone with them.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What do you think he would do to you? Have gay men attacked you before? I'd assume they would be the safest group of men to be around because they're not going to care about gender nonconformity.

I can understand you wouldn't feel safe around Joe Blow from rural Texas or something, but a man like Maclean should pose no threat at all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What do you think he would do to you?

Potentially attack me, though less likely than cis het men. They are physically superior and as they still identify as men may still fall into the same sort of toxic masculine attitudes that lead to gay men who marginize feminine men. Though again less likely with someone so feminine. But even many drag queens are openly anti trans.

I'd assume they would be the safest group of men to be around because they're not going to care about gender nonconformity.

That would be trans men but as I said gay Cis men are Better than het cis men. I’m not saying I can’t stand to be around them at all, I just don’t want to be alone with them. Any cis man is on some level a danger. They are stronger than me and statistically likely to not like trans people.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well, if we're including trans men, I agree that they're the safest of all, because they were born and socialized female. But if you're just worried because of size and strength, a trans man on testosterone would still be a physical threat.

But it's fair enough that you feel uncomfortable. I'm sure you've had plenty of negative experiences to back that up. I feel uncomfortable around feminine women, but I've never considered them a physical threat, so it must be quite different if you perceive others of your natal sex as dangerous as well as hostile.

Out of curiosity, do you think you would feel differently if you'd had GNC natal male role models as a child, if you had positive interactions with adult GNC men and friendships with other GNC children and teenagers?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Size and strength is part of it hit a trans man has no reason to hate trans women. They understand what we experienced.

I had some gnc men role models growing up, though more would have been nice. I was a big cure fan for instance. I don’t know that more would have made me more comfortable since I already consider them better than gender conforming men, but still dangerous.

Maybe having close friendships with them would have helped but I don’t know. I have had friendships with Masculine cis het men but still don’t trust thLike i said I trust them more than masculine men but that doesn’t mean that I trust them.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes sense. I don't want to be all "not all men" when I'm sure you've had experiences backing up your inclination towards caution. Frankly, it's good to be cautious. It doesn't mean you can never trust people, but it's wise to have some skepticism. It helps protect you from harm.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

The trivial, purported differences between trans-women & men are inconsequential.

Largely depends on the field. Honestly no. They are not. There are actual physical differences between these two groups, so saying they are just as different as gay men is dishonest.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

femboys, crossdressers, autogynaephiles are all men & not physically different from trans-women. the "differences" are overstated, which is an understatement.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because sex is the only physical thing?