The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

I have more in common with women than men but again I am not here arguing we are women, just that it is utter nonsense to group us with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

I disagree about transwomen having more in common with women. Women are not all the same. You’re ingoring the part about sex. That’s the most important commonality amongst the female sex. It’s the commonality. And you don’t have that. You have more in common biologically with other males than you ever will with females. That’s my point. So if we are categorizing or grouping or whatever- it is unfair to females to force them to be grouped with males and it also makes significantly more sense to group transwomen with other males. You can deny it and reject it personally as much as you need to- it doesn’t change the facts.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was sitting on one gaming discord for "girl gamers" and after few weeks I perfectly knew who is there are females and who are transwomen, just based on behaviour and their concerns alone. And other women were grouping together too, and transwomen were grouping with themselves, so seems people just subconciously and by interests are noticing differences and similarities. If I do not see visually person, I am almost always asuming that transwoman is a man, just because they discuss what men discuss (plus some cloths and make-up sometimes), they act like men are socialized to act, they care much less about others than women around, and so on. If I am discussing anything with transwomen, I am discussing same things I'll discuss with men, just because they are not understanding me when I am discussing "women things". In contrary - with transmen I have much more in common and I can discuss much more things, and I even can help them with their troubles, because I know women with PCOS and testosterone problems and how those are affecting female body, so I have some knowledge and experience. And in general, a lot of our experiences are very common, even when they are passing visually as a man, most of their troubles and experiences are still similar to mine. Especially nowadays, when I became very commanding woman in charge of a department and I've trained people around to respect me and my boundaries, and answering to their entitlement with my own (some time ago people were even calling me "missis Mister" when referring to me behind my eyes). And that is me only speaking about social aspect, socialization and common experiences. I haven't even started talking about biological differences...

So yeah, I totaly agree here with you. Maybe transwomen have not much common with men (maybe they have common with GNC or gay men, tho?), but with women they have even less common ground.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (37 children)

You have more in common biologically with other males than you ever will with females.

That’s not true. The vast majority of my body is more in line with a woman’s. Every system is effected by hormones and no part of my body matches a man’s. Again you can say we aren’t women but you can’t sensibly say we are the same as men.

There is no metric actually helped by grouping trans women with men other than “keep trans women away from natal women” and even that can be done just as well by separating us from either.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Lmao if that’s what you need to tell yourself go ahead. Doesn’t make it true. I acknowledge that you’ve altered your body to resemble the female form. Doesn’t make you any less of a male. A transwoman is a male- so imo, a transwoman’s body is male no matter what they do. I take no issue with transwomen havingspaces and opportunities separate from other males and all females- I’m saying that factually, actually, biologically, physically, even mentally- transwomen are no less male than any other male. A non trans male taking cross sex hormones would still experience changes in their appearance, a non trans male having cosmetic surgery to resemble a female form would look like a trans woman (idk why they’d do this to be fair, but the point is- anything you can do to claim womanhood or claim to be “not a man” any other male has the option of, if health and finances allow.). That’s what I took away from this post. There’s less separating you than you are willing to acknowledge. There’s nothing you’ll say that would change that truth. Transwomen are a subcategory of males, doesn’t mean they are less male, it means they’ve taken steps to alter their appearance to resemble the female form. If it makes you happier that’s great. Doesn’t change anything significant about your sex or where it would make the most sense to the majority of people to group you. Just because your body may look female on the outside, doesn’t mean that internally we have anything in common. Transwomen would be all ornament and no function. It’s pretty insulting to females to claim that you are more in line with us. And it shows how little you understand the female body.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

This has become pretty petty and insulting so I’m stopping.

I expected better from you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Petty? Where? You expected me to not be frank about how I view things? Or to pretend that what you said makes any sense rather than it being you clinging to what you want so desperately to be true? Oh, Masks, it’s like the reddit sub all over again. You always run away when you have no response. You always accuse people of things when you have no rebuttal. There was no pettiness, there was a response to what you were saying. What you said is wishful thinking. But go ahead. Do what you gotta do.

(Maybe this comment was petty, the rest weren’t)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I’ve told you I’m not continuing this thread since you’ve clearly just decided insults are what should happen. Please leave me alone.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wtf? Block me or stop replying.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I am not writting this to offend you, however, you aren't really correct in this case.

Bone structure, sekeletal structure, bone density and muscular structure are still like ones of a male. Once they are started forming in womb, formed around age of 5-6 and solidified around age of 12-16, they can't be changed. And then other differences - like heart and lunghs size and functionality, they are different (it once almost cost me life, when I had heart attack and doctor was only tought how to deal with male heart attacks), metabolism is still different, it all is not affected by hormones or hormonal levels. Things like colonel is not 20-30% longer like female one, and still the size of a male one. Hip sway is still impossible, because bones are connected in straight line, not on angle, pelvis is still same as male one, and not connected to legs on a rolling joint, but on a straight one, so you will still outrun any woman, just based on skeletal structure. Some of muscles are going same way as male ones as well, like ones around hips. And much much more differences.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Bone structure, sekeletal structure, bone density and muscular structure are still like ones of a male.

You are incorrect. Substantial muscle mass is lost on hormones. 10-15 percent at least in the most conservative study I’ve seen published. Bone loss also occurs and increased osteoporosis risk is a noted effect of long term transition.

I don’t know why you are talking about athletic performance here. I am against trans women competing in sports altogether, as I’ve stated it makes no sense to group us with men and it’s actively unsafe for numerous reasons to have us compete with them even if we ignored the fact that they are so athletically superior we couldn’t compete but I’m not convinced there wouldn’t be some level of residual advantage over natal women so no sports for us is the only logical conclusion, but that also doesn’t contravene my point that pairing us with men makes no sense.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I was not speaking about mass, I was talking that it does not change the structure, just makes them weaker.

And I'd say that most GC are fine with the position for you to have new your own leagues, safe spaces, and so on. Problem is invading female spaces or letting bad actors to have ability to make safe spaces - unsafe.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

... you literally said bone density. But nit the point.

Trans specific leagues/spaces etc aren’t generally workable unfortunately.

You can’t run a trans shelter when there are predicted to be less than 200 trans women in the whole of a small city. Or a sports league. It just can’t be justified to most people to spend money and a sport can’t function with so few people.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

In small city you don't need such spaces everywhere, tho. It is better to have them, but society does not work like that unfortunately.

I am living in a small city, and here in many places there is only men's toilet or unisex toilet.

On my job I was making director annoyed for almost two years to add one more toilet for women (instead of having one unisex), which is placed in better place for women to get in it (as men often chilling in other spot, where unisex toilet was placed previously), and which had extra stuff to make changing tampons/cups more comfortable and safer. They actually built two of them, and unisex changed to men's only.

With sports yeah, it will be smaller leagues. However, they at least will be fair. Female sports aren't very popular as well, sadly, and sponsors are spending thousand times less money on it than on male sport.

However, in bigger cities this is perfectly viable. In our big cities in malls and public places we have up to 4 toilets sometimes (women's, men's, for disabled and for kids or unisex). And we are 2nd world post-USSR country :D

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You can’t play sports without enough people to play them. I like in a city of about 50000 people which means there are statistically probably about 160 trans women in the city.

Given that most trans women forego sports because they don’t want to bulk up or seen masculine, you couldn’t have a trans only basketball game let alone a league.

There are also basically no neutral restrooms here. I can think of like 5 in the city and one is in the gay bar.

So what are trans people who are raped or homeless supposed to do from your standpoint? How can we go anywhere if there are no bathrooms to use?

That’s part of what I’m saying. When you shove trans women into male demographics the actual needs of trans women and the near impossible task of actually getting people to help meet them dissapears.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So what are trans people [...] supposed to do from your standpoint?

Fight to get more unisex or specifically transgender bathrooms or crisis centers (most rape reliefs here are unisex, but divided into different sections, there are special female-only rape releafs for obvious reasons too - and if it is not obvious, I can show on example of my friend why). Homeless shelters here aren't existing outside of few biggest cities, and that is very sad thing, as I was homeless for 2 years, and it was really harsh.

We weren't here instantly too. It took women almost hundred years to get where we are now. Even my job was lacking place where I could change my menstruation cup cleanly, but I have achieved one to be built. I didn't took anyone's place, and you should not take ours. Personally I am gladly can fight for this cause side by side as I did with homosexual transsexuals in the past against homophobia, if it will not be impairing female's spaces and rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

To build on that.

Like there are 2 homeless shelters in this city because we have a big homeless problem.

One is specifically for women and children. One specifically for men.

I was homeless in this city and despite their being 2 homeless shelters, couldn’t go to either.

There’s a rape crisis center attached to the women’s shelter. It’s women only. I’m never going to be sexually assaulted so that won’t matter to me but what about one of the other 159 trans women in town?

Do you see what I am getting at?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

You’re getting at how transgender activists and supporting lobbies need to build shelters specifically for transgender people so that they can be safe and women can also be safe? Great idea. It’s not like businesses and politicians aren’t super into trans rights. It’s a hot topic and they don’t want to be cancelled for saying no to you.

Maybe start a campaign to protect yourself and to protect women.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

couldn’t go to either.

I am pretty sure you could go to male one, you just decided not to.

It’s women only.

I see this very often, in western countries there are rarely any help for raped men, and in many countries by the law men can only be sexually harassed, not raped. It is very weird that our not progressive country in most questions, actually more progressive than west on such questions.

I’m never going to be sexually assaulted so that won’t matter to me but what about one of the other 159 transwomen in town?

I wanted to share experience of my friend, as an explanation why it can be bad idea to use women's safe spaces, as it can hurt them, but I am going to sleep soon. Maybe at friday.