The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I am not writting this to offend you, however, you aren't really correct in this case.

Bone structure, sekeletal structure, bone density and muscular structure are still like ones of a male. Once they are started forming in womb, formed around age of 5-6 and solidified around age of 12-16, they can't be changed. And then other differences - like heart and lunghs size and functionality, they are different (it once almost cost me life, when I had heart attack and doctor was only tought how to deal with male heart attacks), metabolism is still different, it all is not affected by hormones or hormonal levels. Things like colonel is not 20-30% longer like female one, and still the size of a male one. Hip sway is still impossible, because bones are connected in straight line, not on angle, pelvis is still same as male one, and not connected to legs on a rolling joint, but on a straight one, so you will still outrun any woman, just based on skeletal structure. Some of muscles are going same way as male ones as well, like ones around hips. And much much more differences.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Bone structure, sekeletal structure, bone density and muscular structure are still like ones of a male.

You are incorrect. Substantial muscle mass is lost on hormones. 10-15 percent at least in the most conservative study I’ve seen published. Bone loss also occurs and increased osteoporosis risk is a noted effect of long term transition.

I don’t know why you are talking about athletic performance here. I am against trans women competing in sports altogether, as I’ve stated it makes no sense to group us with men and it’s actively unsafe for numerous reasons to have us compete with them even if we ignored the fact that they are so athletically superior we couldn’t compete but I’m not convinced there wouldn’t be some level of residual advantage over natal women so no sports for us is the only logical conclusion, but that also doesn’t contravene my point that pairing us with men makes no sense.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I was not speaking about mass, I was talking that it does not change the structure, just makes them weaker.

And I'd say that most GC are fine with the position for you to have new your own leagues, safe spaces, and so on. Problem is invading female spaces or letting bad actors to have ability to make safe spaces - unsafe.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

... you literally said bone density. But nit the point.

Trans specific leagues/spaces etc aren’t generally workable unfortunately.

You can’t run a trans shelter when there are predicted to be less than 200 trans women in the whole of a small city. Or a sports league. It just can’t be justified to most people to spend money and a sport can’t function with so few people.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

In small city you don't need such spaces everywhere, tho. It is better to have them, but society does not work like that unfortunately.

I am living in a small city, and here in many places there is only men's toilet or unisex toilet.

On my job I was making director annoyed for almost two years to add one more toilet for women (instead of having one unisex), which is placed in better place for women to get in it (as men often chilling in other spot, where unisex toilet was placed previously), and which had extra stuff to make changing tampons/cups more comfortable and safer. They actually built two of them, and unisex changed to men's only.

With sports yeah, it will be smaller leagues. However, they at least will be fair. Female sports aren't very popular as well, sadly, and sponsors are spending thousand times less money on it than on male sport.

However, in bigger cities this is perfectly viable. In our big cities in malls and public places we have up to 4 toilets sometimes (women's, men's, for disabled and for kids or unisex). And we are 2nd world post-USSR country :D

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You can’t play sports without enough people to play them. I like in a city of about 50000 people which means there are statistically probably about 160 trans women in the city.

Given that most trans women forego sports because they don’t want to bulk up or seen masculine, you couldn’t have a trans only basketball game let alone a league.

There are also basically no neutral restrooms here. I can think of like 5 in the city and one is in the gay bar.

So what are trans people who are raped or homeless supposed to do from your standpoint? How can we go anywhere if there are no bathrooms to use?

That’s part of what I’m saying. When you shove trans women into male demographics the actual needs of trans women and the near impossible task of actually getting people to help meet them dissapears.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So what are trans people [...] supposed to do from your standpoint?

Fight to get more unisex or specifically transgender bathrooms or crisis centers (most rape reliefs here are unisex, but divided into different sections, there are special female-only rape releafs for obvious reasons too - and if it is not obvious, I can show on example of my friend why). Homeless shelters here aren't existing outside of few biggest cities, and that is very sad thing, as I was homeless for 2 years, and it was really harsh.

We weren't here instantly too. It took women almost hundred years to get where we are now. Even my job was lacking place where I could change my menstruation cup cleanly, but I have achieved one to be built. I didn't took anyone's place, and you should not take ours. Personally I am gladly can fight for this cause side by side as I did with homosexual transsexuals in the past against homophobia, if it will not be impairing female's spaces and rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you see what I am saying on numbers?

Like look at the 160 number I have before. Can you justify to a business to install a trans bathroom for 160 people in the entire city? Of course not.

Or a rape crisis center? Or a homeless shelter? No way. Those are funded on pure donation and noone would give their money to a trans only resource over a men’s or women’s.

Like I work at one of the few places with a neutral restroom. I picked the gym in town that had one of the few neutral restrooms. But like if I only used neutral ones I wouldn’t be able to eat in a restaraunt. Or go to the movies. Or shop anywhere but target. I’d love more neutral spaces but it’s not a thing that can happen most places.

This is a tangent though. My point is grouping us with men is harmful and fails on every level. That’s my point.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like look at the 160 number I have before. Can you justify to a business to install a trans bathroom for 160 people in the entire city? Of course not.

I am not saying about entire city, just in decent distance from each other. And in my office only 4 women are working, yet bussiness installed toilet for us (in other building there like 50 women working, tho).

over a men’s or women’s.

As I said before, most of ours are unisex, but divided on sections, one for males, one for females, there sections for more vulnereable groups and even single rooms for ones who need it the most.

My point is grouping us with men is harmful and fails on every level.

On most levels grouping with males is more valid than grouping with females. Only on vulnureable part level it does not seems to be valid and is or can be harmful. However, it still has nothing to do with females. It does not mean that because someone else is harmed - females must be harmed too. It is just wrong.

And lets not forget that GNC and feminine gay men are in big danger as well (especially here, where rape of a man was not considered a rape for long time, and "if I fuch man and not he fucked me, then I am not gay, but only receiving one is gay" beliefs - which came from USSR prisons and army) - they are raped and attacked here much more often than transwomen (we have less than 1 killed transgender per year, and if transwoman is attacked, it is mostly because of homophobia too, as people here thinking similarly to Iran, transmen are attacked much more often than transwomen as well). In last years homophobia had a huge drop down, so maybe in few years I will be completely safe to be out, and for transgenders will be safer too, as they are mostly suffering here from homophobia only.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

To build on that.

Like there are 2 homeless shelters in this city because we have a big homeless problem.

One is specifically for women and children. One specifically for men.

I was homeless in this city and despite their being 2 homeless shelters, couldn’t go to either.

There’s a rape crisis center attached to the women’s shelter. It’s women only. I’m never going to be sexually assaulted so that won’t matter to me but what about one of the other 159 trans women in town?

Do you see what I am getting at?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

You’re getting at how transgender activists and supporting lobbies need to build shelters specifically for transgender people so that they can be safe and women can also be safe? Great idea. It’s not like businesses and politicians aren’t super into trans rights. It’s a hot topic and they don’t want to be cancelled for saying no to you.

Maybe start a campaign to protect yourself and to protect women.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

You’re getting at how transgender activists and supporting lobbies need to build shelters specifically for transgender people so that they can be safe and women can also be safe?

I talked about that. You can’t build a shelter for trans people when there are 160 trans people total in the city. It can’t be funded or supported.

No one would sign off on finding a shelter that will likely never see more than 4 or 5 people in a wild outlier. Or a rape crisis center that sees 10 people a year.

I don’t know of a workable solution that isn’t let trans women use established resources that doesn’t just leave trans women without any resources.

“Make your own” is have none because they can’t be built or sustained.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Ahh so right back into assuring yourself of defeat before making any effort to help yourself because most oppressed and hated. You never change do you.

“Women should lose something vital to give to men who want it and aren’t liked by the other men” Is never gonna get your anything. It’s like you’re content to sit and tell yourself you’re so hated and vulnerable and rejected that trying anything is a waste and women should do it for you.

Do you ever get sick of defeating yourself before you even attempt anything?

Do you think when women first started making shelters they were supported? Popular?
If you aren’t willing to lift a finger to fight for your rights why are you so adamant that women should throw away what we fought for to cater to men? What justifies that to you? Do you believe that transwomen are actually more abused than real women?more hated?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

Trans women are absolutely more hated than natal women. I have no doubt. Natal women may be more abused, I don’t actually know but just look at any poll numbers. Substantial percentages of people object to our very existence.

But putting that aside, how exactly do you think .3 percent of the population, mostly with limited or no economic power and generally not well liked, could get support funding for a service. How are you going to get a politician to justify government expenditures on mostly empty buildings for the few trans people who will need them. Like me showing my face asking for things would make people less likely to support it since I am Frankenstein’s monster with breasts. There’s a reason that major campaigns carefully vet which trans people represent them. Most people hate us and it’s an uphill battle to even exist. Let alone get people to give us money to support us.

Seriously. How can you expect that to work?

I asked you for alternatives above. I didn’t see any. Argue we shouldn’t be in women’s spaces if you must, but you can’t just act like we can build alternatives.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

couldn’t go to either.

I am pretty sure you could go to male one, you just decided not to.

It’s women only.

I see this very often, in western countries there are rarely any help for raped men, and in many countries by the law men can only be sexually harassed, not raped. It is very weird that our not progressive country in most questions, actually more progressive than west on such questions.

I’m never going to be sexually assaulted so that won’t matter to me but what about one of the other 159 transwomen in town?

I wanted to share experience of my friend, as an explanation why it can be bad idea to use women's safe spaces, as it can hurt them, but I am going to sleep soon. Maybe at friday.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

am pretty sure you could go to male one, you just decided not to.

No it’s religiously funded. I couldn’t have gone even if I were willing to risk the certain violence.

As to the rest my points isn’t that we should be welcome in women’s shelters it’s that there aren’t shelters for trans people and realistically there never will be. So we are just left without.