The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Grouping men with trans women makes no sense on any logical metric. W have different bodies, different social experiences, different legal standing, different social dynamics as far as economic power.

there are literally billions of men on this planet. No man is just like every other man. The only reason to group such a large number of people together is due to a very general shared trait, like a chromosome. You have some medical tendencies in common. You should be looked at in column a instead of column b when considering issue such-and-such. It gets really broad from there.

Is your body more male or female? Well, do you have a uterus or a prostate? If you have neither, did you start with either one? Were your social experiences more like one or the other - did you feel worried about getting pregnant when you were young? Or an expectation to have a kid? Are you scared to speak up since you'll be seen as bossy...

Trans women may be their own group but it hardly makes sense if they don't start as men. Otherwise what are they "trans"-ing from? There is nothing wrong with having a particular experience that includes being part of a male category.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

We aren’t men. And it makes no sense to group us with them.

I’m not saying you need to call us women, I’m saying calling us men is so off the mark it makes any kind of class analysis too inaccurate to be of use.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

To me, if you still have a penis, it is not "so far off the mark" to call you men, even if it may be a very specific subclass who are very different from others. But there are lots of kinds of male humans unlike most others in many important ways - people with disabilities or distinctive genetic abnormalities, or types... And even men who no longer have penises had one at one point, have prostates, never had ovaries or a uterus... The grouping of male and female is just - if you can reproduce, which part do you offer. If you have a reproductive system, or ever did, then you have a sex.

If you like to dress like Lana Turner, that's a style thing. There may be more women than men into it, but it's not decided by sex, and plenty of women are not into feminine-conforming stuff, while there's always been a subset of (mostly gay, queen, transvestite) guys who are. What do you think trans women share with all women that they don't share with men ?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Through out the history current "feminine" look was men's only fashion - like high heels, white make-up on face, troucers and dress-like cloths or skirts. And modern "feminine" behaviour was "royal men" behaviour. Nowadays in some cultures it is still men's behaviour. As one person had written here - if a transwoman pre-op will pass the border with such country, where it is manly to look like that and most men around are walking like that, will that transwoman become a man now? As there will be no difference, except hormone therapy between that transwoman and regular men around.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Hormone balances, breasts and related health concerns, General social groupings, vulnerability to and general distrust of men among others.

But as I said my point wasn’t asserting we are women but rather that we are not men by any relevant metric. It renders social discussions pointless to say I am the same as a man because the class is then essentially meaningless from any kind of class based perspective.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But there are lots of men who are vulnerable or don't "fit into class based perspectives" whatever that means exactly. What about males who are wheelchair bound, or dwarfs, or veterans, or minority races or elderly or gay, for a start?

Hormones only applies to people taking hormones, and then it only to the amount they take. Even if some men take some women's hormones, they still will have bodies built by male hormones, and they still will produce more male hormones than women, so the end result is still more male. If they still have a penis, testicles, a prostate, male hips, an adam's apple, or a male bone structure for example, it's hard to say they're not fundamentally men. Men have breasts and breast cancer to start with - not to the same degree as women, but it's a thing. They don't have menses, uterus-related health issues, needs to see a gynecologist. They do have more heart attacks.

Those are the kinds of health related concerns trans women should align themselves according to. Do they have female-typical heart attacks, or male-typical heart attacks? Do they get breast cancer at rates like women or men? If trans people (male and female) are starting a new middle type, it would require a certain amount of hormone/physical? measurement for someone to be considered a valid member.

But all I mean when I say "man" is person who has a male body, is more likely to get a heart attack that centers at the heart, might be able to pee standing up or supply his half of the DNA with the option to leave, doesn't bleed from the groin regularly, that sort of thing. What a male person does with that body, how they choose to use it and how they alter it, is a whole story of their own, and I have known plenty of unique men (and women) who don't fit into any stereotypes or "class based perspectives" or whatever. They just have certain chromosomes that start them off with certain benefits and burdens. Sex doesn't define you. It's just a component of how we come into the world.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am very feminine looking and sounding man, I am often mistakened for a woman if people do not see my face or if it is phone call. Even in the internet people often think that I am a woman because I am very calm and polite. And I do like wearing "dress-like" cloths made for men (roman toga, for example) during hot weather - just because it is more comfortable to wear it than going around in shorts or pants.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Those men are still men and not so different from the idea of men as a class than trans women.

and they still will produce more male hormones than women

This is not true. Post op trans women have no production beyond natal women. And either way the health concerns from an estrogen primary system are not the same health concerns as men.

We have an elevated risk of vein thrombosis as compared to men at least though I don’t know if there is good info on heart attacks specifically.

They have breast cancer at closer to female rates since it’s in part based on amount of tissue, but we have a near negligible risk of prostate cancer again due to different amounts of tissue. That’s a perfect illustration of my point. I will never need a testicular exam or routine prostate exams but I will need mammograms so if insurance just calls me a man it could lead to necessary things uncovered.

Defining trans women as men does harm. Wild levels of harm to trans women. Put a trans woman in a men’s prison, she’ll be raped or killed basically guaranteed. The health coverage concerns I just brought up. I can’t use a men’s room safely which literally effects every thing I do outside the home. If you are talking about statistics we are wild outliers in so many metrics that any large scale analysis fails to provide accurate info with respect to us with that grouping. It leads to a lack of necessary legal protections. Men statistically are less likely to face workplace discrimination so taking that large scale analysis it’s easy to argue that trans women don’t need it even though trans targeted information shows more than half of ya have directly experienced work place discrimination.

I’m not saying you have to call us women but grouping is with men is absolutely not appropriate.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

This is not true. Post op trans women have no production beyond natal women. And either way the health concerns from an estrogen primary system are not the same health concerns as men. We have an elevated risk of vein thrombosis as compared to men at least though I don’t know if there is good info on heart attacks specifically. They have breast cancer at closer to female rates since it’s in part based on amount of tissue, but we have a near negligible risk of prostate cancer again due to different amounts of tissue. That’s a perfect illustration of my point. I will never need a testicular exam or routine prostate exams but I will need mammograms so if insurance just calls me a man it could lead to necessary things uncovered.

I like it when we agree on things. :)

Post-op transwomen have very different medical concerns than other males. I do wonder if transition age affects breast cancer risk. I’ve been told I’ll need mammograms when I get to 40 (and obviously, I get breast exams now), but I wonder if the risk is lessened if someone developed breast tissue later.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That’s an interesting question. It’s actually a real problem how little info we have medically on trans people but given the minuscule possible sample size it has to be very difficult to get good data.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This so true! I’ve had a number of medical questions come up over the years where the answer would be like we don’t know and I’d sort of try to work with my doctor to figure it out. There is a lot that the medical community doesn’t understand about post-ops yet, especially once you get further out from transition.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely

[–]emptiedriver 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That’s an interesting question. It’s actually a real problem how little info we have medically on trans people

The link I gave you above discussed this question. Both male and female trans people have an intermediate percentage of breast cancer, compared with women who have notably more and men who have notably less.

Males who take estrogen increase their risk of breast cancer just as they would if they smoked but they do not become females medically. They are a separate category - males who have taken hormones - and the ones who still have their male system & may be able to still use it if they reduce female hormones, or who never even begin taking hormones but just "identify" as female, are even more obviously in need of specialists for those body parts. All the same, even the ones who remove all the male parts they can will not be able to put in female parts, so if they no longer see a male specialist they should continue to see the transition specialist.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They are a separate category

The need for us to be considered separate from men has literally been my whole thesis.