Both: What are your feelings on BDSM and the sex-positivity movement?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

How do you feel they're affecting women, the state of feminism, and society in general?

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[–]burninglikeabridge 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I worry that predatory people use BDSM as a way to abuse women without facing repercussions. I was just thinking about this the other day. But not that rapists and sexual offenders face that many consequences in society for their behavior anyways, but now you can just claim BDSM. Thats what the toybox killer claimed, the women consented and it was just BDSM.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I'm positive there are sociopaths using it as an excuse to seriously harm and even kill women.

Relevant link: https://wecantconsenttothis.uk

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

This definitely happens:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/dangerous-truth-serial-killer-con-man-john-robinson/story?id=65855274

I think it is hard to make a blanket statement about it as it ranges from pretty harmless fantasy to disgustingly misogynistic garbage which really does at least psychologically damage people. On the whole I wish BDSM was a lot less popular but I'm not sure what you can really do about things adults do with each other do with each other in private where both parties are at least claiming to consent (at least as long as no one is actually seriously injured obviously).

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I figure the least we can do is stop glamorizing it in pop culture and work to end violent pornography.

At this point, there's almost nothing that I would see as "pretty harmless fantasy."

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Agreed. I want porn in general banned. Hopefully, without the porn pushing it less people would be doing these things.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think violent porn should be banned. Porn in general I believe could be reformed if society had a mind to do so.

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't see how to reform it honestly. As long as society is sexist against women the profit motive is always going to push porn to be misogynistic even if not explicitly violent IMO. (It's an interesting question I guess if truly ethical porn could exist in a society without gender roles but under patriarchy, I think it is impossible.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would be difficult, but it would have to be decoupled from money. No one gets paid for making it or distributing it.

[–]PassionateIntensity 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Correct me if I'm wrong but BDSM is actually illegal, right? It's not usually prosecuted by police or treated like it is because it doesn't get reported by a victim, but a person can't legally consent to violence or assault.

[–]DistantGlimmer 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not 100% sure but I believe you are correct. I have heard of very extreme cases like cannibalism where it was still prosecuted as murder even though the victim consented to it due to obvious mental illness.

[–]burninglikeabridge 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Wow. Never stumbled across that page before, thats very sad to see.

I dated a girl who was really into BDSM and being submissive. But I remember her telling me that its just as important to her that we cuddle after and have room to talk about any feelings that arise so the relationship stays balanced. And never have any BDSM things leak into our relationship outside the bedroom. That 24/7 BDSM relationship is something I never understood.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Do you think it's morally justified to perform violent acts on your partner if she asks for it?

To be honest, I wouldn't trust a man who had ever done such things, even if he claimed he didn't enjoy them.

[–]burninglikeabridge 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

It depends on how you define violent acts. I'd draw a very hard line at any sort of rape play, body fluids, spitting on someone for example, slapping someone, hard choking especially to the point of passing out and i dont think id be ok tying someone up either. Not ok to cut someone. So I guess my short answer is not always.

How do you define "violent acts"?

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Anything that would be considered assault in a normal context. Certainly any type of choking, hitting, slapping, etc.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I absolutely do not get the appeal of choking, hitting, slapping, hair-pulling. Those are the top domestic violence moves in a nutshell.

(Yes, choking fans, spare me the enthusiasm, I've accidentally choked myself out -- by tucking the corner of a pillow up under my carotid sinus. An MD helped me figure it out. It was the opposite of pleasant.)

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It baffles me. Why would anyone want their partner to pretend to murder them during sex? Strangulation is mimicking the act of killing someone.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, it is. I've heard all the "Asphyxiation heightens orgasm" arguments and I'm like "Well, no, that's your adrenals kicking into overdrive because your brain thinks you're being killed." Which has me wondering if maybe a lot of these fetishes are actually re-traumatizing and self-harm compulsions.

[–]burninglikeabridge 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Then no, most of the time no. But at the end of the day I can't tell people what to do so I do think proper education on BDSM and relationships is really important.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What do you mean by proper education? I think trying to "educate" people about BDSM just feeds into the normalization of such acts. I'd rather society simply refused to acknowledge it.

[–]burninglikeabridge 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it would be harm reduction for sure and not to prevent people from doing BDSM. At the end of the day people are going to do it anyways, i think refusing to acknowledge it hurts more than helps.

Proper education would be learning about a healthy dominant/submissive relationship, the after care for both parties, learn about abuse and what that looks like, consent, and then also how to safely practice BDSM and the risks associated with certain acts and how to best prevent harm. For people over 18, i don't think this should be taught at schools. Besides the consent, abuse signs, and safe sex part of it, that should be taught better in schools.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But by "educating" people, you're spreading the knowledge of such acts, especially if they're forced into the mainstream.

Men's Health just ran a disgusting article on strangling women. They might try to present it in the guise of education, but this is pure promotion and normalization.

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/5px4/mens_health_magazine_how_to_choke_a_woman_i_dont

And 91% of men in the poll describe it as "hot." Things like that make me want to die. They make me want to kill myself rather than continue to exist as female in a world that hates women. This is what normalization of porn and sexualized violence lead to, a society in which nearly all men find strangulation of women arousing.

[–]worried19[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I believe BDSM is immoral and has terrible effects on society. I don't think it's a coincidence that the meteoric rise in young girls trying to flee womanhood is happening at a time when sexualized violence is more prominent than ever before. This is the first generation that has been raised on hardcore violent pornography. Most of them first saw it in elementary or middle school. These kids were also exposed at a young age to the mainstreaming of BDSM in pop culture. Women are always on the losing end of that equation. I believe porn and "sex positive" culture which encourages women's pain and degradation is a contributing factor to girls no longer wanting to be girls. I myself have considered transition because of it, and I can't be the only one.

I think the sex positivity movement may have started off with good intentions, but as it stands now, it only serves men's purposes, pushing women to even greater heights of degradation and domination. A woman who is considered "good in bed" is kinky and has no real boundaries that can't be pushed by her sex partner and overcome with the right "encouragement." It's rape culture in action. If a woman dares to say no, then she's not "good, giving, and game." She's a prude who is considered to have issues. A woman doesn't want to have anal or deepthroat her partner? She's told there's something wrong with her, not him.

[–]theblackfleet 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's misogyny. I heard the 'rough sex' defense in the UK has been thrown out.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, thank God.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53064086

[–]catoborosnonbinary 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Safe, sane, and consensual. There are many women super-keen on BDSM. Hand wringing denies women their agency.

I always hoped that society would change and women would eventually be free to express their sexuality without fear, but I have to admit that the younger generation have succeeded so much that they now terrify me.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do you find it at all morally troublesome that it's only women who are assumed to be the ones who are strangled and slapped around?

What scares you about the younger generation?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it is sexist that women are often assumed to be victims.

The younger generation scares me because they happily do things that terrify me. I am sex-positive and struggled against the strictures faced by my generation (Gen X). Current sexual liberation is so far beyond my wildest imagination that I am in shock.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The younger generation seems to be getting more and more extreme. I suppose it's only a matter of time before the pendulum swings back the other direction, but I worry about all the girls and women in the meantime.

[–]Seahorse 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Does it though?

I don't see being critical of something denying agency.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Critical in the sense of examining with an open mind from multiple viewpoints is neutral and does not deny agency. The idea that some are coerced into BDSM is worthy of consideration, but must be balanced against evidence that many engage in BDSM of their own free choice and enjoy it.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

People can engage in misogynistic, destructive things of their own free will. That's part of gendered socialization and oppression.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Genuine free will is never oppression. Claiming that it is denies agency. The questions are whether there is such a thing as free will, how much self-knowledge does an individual require to have it, and how can anyone else know? Society is an employment scheme for psychotherapists.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do you think it's possible for women raised under patriarchy to have genuine free will in these matters?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It is harder for women raised under patriarchy to have genuine free will. Note that I am not GC and reject the characterisation of western society as a patriarchy. I think the situation is in some ways even worse under social media: many young people are trapped in massive, distributed, bullying networks that compel behaviour under the threat of exclusion. Expected behaviours are gendered, but enforcement is not patriarchal. Rather, it is an emergent behaviour based on peer pressure, amplified by technological feedback. The awful truth seems to be that women expect conformity from other women. I do not think this is patriarchy, but it is coercion and opposes genuine free will.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for explaining. I do think we live in a patriarchy, but various patriarchal aspects are heavily promoted and enforced by other women. I truly believe the beauty industry would die out tomorrow if women stopped supporting it. If men were upset at all, they'd get over it quickly.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree. I recently realised that, even though I dismiss the patriarchy and see society as an emergent phenomenon, we are still talking about the same thing, and just differ on how it came to be.

[–]bald-janitor 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

BDSM itself Is fine, but like any form of extreme activity has to be done carefully. The sub is in an extremely vulnerable position and there are Doms who get drunk on their trip and lose all respect for the person they are playing with. It doesn't happen often, but we probably could do better. I'm not sure how, since it has entered the mainstream now and good books on the topic like new bottoming book or the lesbian sm safety manual didn't come along with it. Which is a shame and keeps their message from reaching some who need it.

As you might have guessed I don't have an issue with either bdsm or sex positivity. Both kinda go hand in hand as bdsm celebrates the carnal and makes sex a lifestyle. The big issue I have with some parts of either community is, when they present their lifestyle as superior.

Legally bdsm is a touchy subject. In my country I t's basically illegal, but as long as no one sues no one makes a fuzz about it. Basically a legal gray area.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Do you have moral qualms about any of it?

There are people out there who sexualize extreme things like rape, slavery, and the Holocaust.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Yes and no. Maybe. It's complicated. I can't say that I have no moral qualms with what most people would consider problematic like rape or setting a scene in Auschwitz. But I don't consider the act of playing out these scenes itself immoral at all. The bigger issue for me personally is when people start to boast about these scenes outside of kink places. While it's usually understood in the kink community that setting a scene during the Holocaust is mostly set dressing or the play during that scene to spark both the sub and Doms imagination, this is likely lost in more vanilla spaces and could take the focus of the actual tragedies that occurred during this time.

The reason why I don't judge people who engage in this sort of play might be, because I myself have kinks that would easily be considered immoral. Especially given my personal history my testimony on these might be used by bad actors to justify their harm of innocent people. I have seen a few people in my kinks community express the sentiment and while some shot them down immediately others weren't as quick call out their frankly horrible sentiments.

The reason I don't judge those seeking to play out their kinks is because, at least for me, my kink isn't as much a want as it is a need. It's something I'm struggling with quite often and I have done things that I am not proud of to get my fix. The only person harmed was me, just to be clear.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

my kink isn't as much a want as it is a need.

How can fulfilling a kink be a need?

(not judging, just trying to understand)

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds more like a fetish than a kink, in that case.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

On one hand im just not satisfied unless I get it the way I need and on the other I can't really think about anything else unless I'm satisfied. I'm aware that this is really pathetic on so many levels, but I honestly can't help it.Due to my past and dysphoria I can just set aside this craving most of the time, but if I actually have sex It usually doesn't leave me satisfied. Maybe it's a fetish, but I don't need it to get aroused so I'm honestly not sure.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do you think it says anything at all about the people who get pleasure from being the perpetrator in these scenarios?

I can't reconcile that with morality, personally. Just because there are willing victims doesn't excuse the people who happily abuse others. If I had desires like that (which I don't, thank God), I'd go to my deathbed denying them.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not really. Simply playing out these desires does not say anything about people who play them out. It's how you do it that says everything. The line between abusive asshole and caring Dom is respect for the person you play with both outside and during play. Is there any aftercare? Is he able to snap out of the scene at an instant. Is she willing to ease you into a scene if you aren't yet ready? Is she making her own lines absolutely clear? Does she negotiate the scene with you beforehand? Etc. Etc.

These things make a huge difference and say a lot about who that person is outside of play. Having a certain kink does not say more about the person than wether or not they like oral sex.

doesn't excuse the people who happily abuse others

I completely agree with the sentiment, but I fear our definition of abuse is different.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, our definition of abuse is different.

I think we're pretty much diametrically opposed on this matter. In my view, taking pleasure from hurting other people is always wrong, no matter if the victims want it. And sexualizing evil things is always evil.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why is the reenactment of evil in a safe environment evil? Does the same go for plays or movies? Or is it l just the use of an evil backdrop for sexual context that's bad? If yes why is that okay for other things, but not for sex?

I won't argue about wether or not hurting someone for pleasure is bad, because you're entitled to your own morals. I just wanted to remind you, that bdsm does not have to involve pain.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To take pleasure from evil is evil, in my book. If a man wants to rape a woman, gets pleasure from the idea of forcing himself on a woman and the woman resisting him, takes pleasure in her pain and fear, that man is evil. I will never waver on that.

A man who plays a serial killer or a rapist in a movie is not taking sadistic pleasure in the role, one would hope. If he does, I would likewise label him evil.

[–]Seahorse 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah it has no place in feminism in my opinion.

I find even the vanilla aspects of BDSM make me deeply uncomfortable. No matter what people argue I do not think we are meant to harm another human and you shouldn't enjoy being harmed.

I think porn and how readily available it is, has completely poisoned people's healthy views of sexuality and BDSM is included in that.

People "think" what they have is healthy but the reality is it probably isn't.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same here. It also bothers me that any aspect of BDSM is considered vanilla. I feel like society has been corrupted to an extent it never has been before.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just out of curiosity. What aspects of bdsm are considered vanilla these days? I've been part of the kink community for too long I guess.

[–]Seahorse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well I mean to say stuff that is in media movies etc.

Whipping, tying up etc.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

GC - I'm going to be a little bit of a nerdy outlier here for the sake of good science. Hedonic levels do vary from person to person. Some people have very sensitive receptors and and low nociceptive (pain) thresholds; some have quite high thresholds. The hedonic zone of "pleasure on the edge of pain" really does vary widely from person to person (this assumes a healthily functional nervous system). So hedonics isn't a one-size-fits-all. Where sex positivity helps promote that realization -- great.

Equally, whatever role-playing and psycho-sexual exploration sane consenting adults want to do on their own time (within moral and social reason, and with some knowledge of anatomy -- quit choking each other FFS, it's a stroke risk!) -- great.

However.

worried19: "I think the sex positivity movement may have started off with good intentions, but as it stands now, it only serves men's purposes, pushing women to even greater heights of degradation and domination."

I couldn't have said it better.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can't say I'm much for hedonism myself, but does hedonism have to equal violence?

I assume one can be promiscuous and hedonistic while still eschewing violent acts.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, no, not at all . . . meaning not hedonistic. I'm using hedonic here in the neural sense, the hedonic threshold. The point where skin receptors register pleasure just before it tips into overload and pain.

(edit for clarity)

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No worries. I completely misread your initial comment. TIL about hedonics.