Unpopular opinion: parts of third-wave feminism directly led to the rise of trans ideology

submitted by Aureus from self.politics

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[–]just_lesbian_things 21 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 7 fun22 insightful - 8 fun -  (62 children)

Hot response: this isn't an unpopular opinion. This is one of the few things both third wave feminists and their critics (including second wave/radfems) agree on: that third wave feminism paved the road for trans activism.

the need of young men to attain a sense of masculine self-worth

Nah, I think the problem is that young men have too high a sense of self worth. There are young (and old) men out there who think their feelings = reality. If that's not a symptom of ego overinflation, I don't know what is. Men need to get the fuck over themselves.

[–]latuspod 13 insightful - 7 fun13 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 7 fun -  (46 children)

As a former young man this is definitely not the case for all men. Men dont kill themselves 3 times as often because of their high sense of self worth.

There undoubtedly are men out there exactly as you describe, but they arent the majority.

[–]just_lesbian_things 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Women are more likely to attempt suicide than men, but men are more likely to succeed. Men succeed more because they choose more violent methods. Male violence is a problem for both men and women, as both sexes end up victims to it. I'd say maybe masculinity and its ties to violence and the "boys will be boys" attitude regarding violent behavior is the source of the problem, but if you've got a better explanation, I'm all ears.

[–]latuspod 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (31 children)

Men undoubtedly are more violent there is no denying that. The solution to that is something that Peterson talks about quite a bit, socializing boys properly. They need proper outlets to vent and learn how to deal with their aggression, they need rough and tumble play. Young boys crave it, that is why they are pushing, and wrestling with their friends, or playing sports with the full omtemt of winning. But these are things that generally fall into the toxic masculinity and the "boys will be boys" trope. I have two young boys and have had some of their teachers praise their passivity and gentleness in gym class and others bemoan their competitive nature. I have gotten the feeling talking to all my kids teachers that the ideal little boy in elementary school would basically be a sterotypical girl. Of course it doesnt help that their are virtually no male elementary school teachers. It also doesnt help that kids are less active nowadays, both at home and at school.

As for the suicide, yes women attempt more, with less lethal means, and sometimes those are cries for help rather than a suicide attempt. My sister has done so twice, swallow a bunch of pills and then immediately call 911. There are also numerous accidents that men get into that look suspiciously like suicide. I for years tried to think of a way I could do so, make it look like am accident, so my wife could collect on my life insurance so she wouldn't have to worry about finances while raising our kids. But I really dont want to get into whataboutism about depression and suicide because it is shitty all the time and is something a lot of people struggle with regardless of gender.

I more so wanted to point out that a few men's behaviour is not indicative of all men. And I also dont think the solution to men or societies problem is to have men behave more like women. We as a society have work to do to liberate both genders, and I think in general society is choosing to focus on the wrong things.

[–]just_lesbian_things 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (24 children)

The solution to that is something that Peterson talks about quite a bit, socializing boys properly. They need proper outlets to vent and learn how to deal with their aggression, they need rough and tumble play.

Boys have had rough and tumble play for almost all of human history. Violent crime is at an all time low since we turned that down. I think evidence is against rough and tumble play.

I have gotten the feeling talking to all my kids teachers that the ideal little boy in elementary school would basically be a sterotypical girl

I'm personally of the opinion that most girls were beaten into silence and passivity from a young age. I was just as bored as the boys in class, but I didn't act out because my parents taught me better; with words, rulers, and the back of their hands when they needed a little more oomph. But maybe that's what modern society needs: people who can sit quietly and solve problems. Keep up or get left behind, right?

There are also numerous accidents that men get into that look suspiciously like suicide

And plenty of women "disappear". Back when I was planning to kill myself, I wanted to disappear so as to spare my family the funeral expenses and the trauma of finding me. There will always be an element of error in statistics.

I more so wanted to point out that a few men's behavior is not indicative of all men

I'm more specifically talking about trans-identified men according to the context of this thread. But sure, #notallmen.

And I also don't think the solution to men or societies problem is to have men behave more like women

Hey, if you got a better solution, like I said, I'm all ears. I don't even like dealing with men, but if they're going to negatively affect me, I'm going to have to do something about it. And if you don't like my methods, then you should come up with your own. I'm not going to sit around and put up with crazy, entitled male behavior while you brainstorm. Let's be proactive, right?

liberate both genders

I don't support gender. There are two sexes. Gender is a bullshit, outdated social construct.

[–]america_first_1776 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Boys have had rough and tumble play for almost all of human history. Violent crime is at an all time low since we turned that down. I think evidence is against rough and tumble play.

You're confusing a possible cause with an actual cause. The reason violent crime has come down for the past ~1000 years (dating back to Europe) is through eugenics. Men who were considered "higher-status" in Europe became more likely to have kids, all while Europe cleansed itself of the people who were most likely to commit violent crime. You add onto the fact that now a days, it is much harder to get away with a crime due to advances in forensic science and modern monitoring technology..

I'm personally of the opinion that most girls were beaten into silence and passivity from a young age. I was just as bored as the boys in class, but I didn't act out because my parents taught me better; with words, rulers, and the back of their hands when they needed a little more oomph.

Except, once again, your personal experience does not match with reality. Boys are more likely to get paddled than girls by a wide margin.

But maybe that's what modern society needs: people who can sit quietly and solve problems. Keep up or get left behind, right?

Who are you to tell us that's what modern society needs? There is such a thing as being active and solving problems at the same time. Modern society was built by men because men are more active and innovative than women. Pretty much every piece of modern technology you use was built by a white man.

Hey, if you got a better solution, like I said, I'm all ears. I don't even like dealing with men, but if they're going to negatively affect me, I'm going to have to do something about it. And if you don't like my methods, then you should come up with your own. I'm not going to sit around and put up with crazy, entitled male behavior while you brainstorm. Let's be proactive, right?

A balkanization of the United States based on both race and political affiliation. It's become clear that the differences between our sides is irreconcilable. Let's see what race/philosophy comes out on top

[–]FediNetizen 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

A balkanization of the United States based on both race and political affiliation. It's become clear that the differences between our sides is irreconcilable.

It's only a small minority of people that finds being around people of different races and political ideologies so stressful that they feel the need to do something about it. America has been a cultural melting pot for 100 years now, and at the same time one of the most successful countries. Don't assume the rest of the country shares your fragility.

[–]Aureus[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't assume the rest of the country shares your fragility.

This already seems to be happening on both sides. Progressives will eagerly tell you that the "cultural melting pot" is a "racist" concept. We're beginning to see a sort of neo-apartheid where black businesses are distinctly marked and offered discounts from firms such as Uber, and in universities black people are offered separate dorms and graduations by their own choice.

I agree with you that a balkanization likely will not happen - there's too much money in staying united. But that's doesn't mean that groups like The New Black Panthers won't call for it.

[–]america_first_1776 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

It's only a small minority of people that finds being around people of different races and political ideologies so stressful that they feel the need to do something about it.

No it isn't. If it was, then the science wouldn't show that pretty much all "diverse" communities don't work

America has been a cultural melting pot for 100 years now, and at the same time one of the most successful countries.

That "success" from the "cultural melting pot" came because up until the 1965 Hart-Cellar Act, the people who immigrated here were white.

Don't assume the rest of the country shares your fragility.

Ohhhhh. So I didn't even read the username till I saw this "debate tactic." How's it going Fagnetizen? Long time no see?

[–]FediNetizen 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

This isn't "what the science says", this is an essay written by a guy that quotes news articles and studies he's selected to make the argument that diversity is a bad thing. The studies themselves often don't support the broad sweeping statements he makes here, though, and in some cases even contradicts them.

For instance, he takes a computer simulation and uses that to make the argument that diversity is incompatible with strong communities. He also selectively pulls quotes from studies that don't overall agree with what he's claiming. For instance, he took a paper that argues that there are short-term disadvantages but long-term advantages to diverse communities, and only pulled quotes from the sections on short-term disadvantages while neglecting to cover the advantages. This is pretty hilarious, because an article from 13 years ago predicted people like him would do just that:

"Putnam’s results will play handily to those conservatives who believe that self-segregation works with, rather than against, “the grain of human nature.” We hear this kind of argument in apologetics for “a conservatism comfortable with materialist self-interest.” These same conservatives will likely pass over in silence those sections of the article that review the many benefits of increased immigration and diversity, among them: greater creativity; better, faster problem-solving; and more rapid economic growth, among others. Putnam never argues that diversity is, on balance, a bad thing."

Pretending that this anon's essay is "what the science says" may be comforting to a racist living in a world where most people don't like racists, but at the end of the day it's mainly a list of cherry-picked quotes.

[–]america_first_1776 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Show me the science in favor of diverse communities. Show me that they are more efficient, have more community trust, and more community involvement. Show me the studies that show diverse communities have less crime than homogeneous white communities.

the many benefits of increased immigration and diversity, among them: greater creativity; better, faster problem-solving; and more rapid economic growth, among others.

Basically, "muh GPD." So your community is rat-infested, filled with gang-bangers, and blacks are coming to your house to steal what dey deserve n sheit. But we get more "creativity" (other studies in the article I posted went over innovation, so I'm not sure what kind of "creativity" he's talking about... it could mean anything), "better problem solving" (again, could mean anything), and "more rapid economic growth" (I'll give you the "muh gdp" even though my article contradicts this). Wow, that sounds like heaven.

And the fact that this meta-analysis didn't bring up the very few positives of diversity doesn't make anything stated in the meta-analysis less true whether you like it or not. In fact, showing that even the most leftist authors can't ignore the downsides of diversity only strengthens the argument.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So happy to read your opinions: thoughtful, coherent and clear. Thank you for sharing your POV.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

No, they're dumb. You are either a dumb feminist or a simp. I can see that you people are trying to boost your views in these threats. You make no coherent arguments and you are just as ignorant of human psychology as the wokest SJW. It doesn't matter, though, because you people always need censorship in the end because, even when you cannot muster the numbers, it becomes apparent to the majority over time how wrong you are.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You sure told them.

A shitpost is a shitpost.

Stop ruining this place.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

No.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahha 'you people' omg welcome to the 21 century chump lol how do you even tie your own shoes when you reason like a deformed pretzel?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Boys have had rough and tumble play for almost all of human history. Violent crime is at an all time low since we turned that down. I think evidence is against rough and tumble play.

Are you sure about that? Maybe it was video games or D&D.

[–]GConly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Violent crime is at an all time low since we turned that down.

Not down to socialisation.

The reason crime rates have fallen is because men commit less crime as they get older. Our average population age in the west is in the forties, back in 1970 it was 34. Offending in the youth category at least in the UK is higher in the youth group than it was was a few decades ago.

Over the space of a few thousand years: cultures with cities have been selecting out genes associated with violent behaviour by incarceration or execution of criminals.

Yes violence has a genetic component.

[–]latuspod 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

First thing by gender meant sex, there are two genders, two sexes. I feel gender is a better word for describing the relationship to society.

But back to the Trans identified Men, as the OP pointed out it makes sense if you consider the way society treats masculinity and men, and add that to the fact that we have this stupid idea that biological sex doesnt matter in the public discourse and you create a solution for some of these men. It is a flawed and shitty solution, that is damaging all around. And then on top of that you have men with type B personality disorders look at all this and see it as a way to control others.

The only thing I was trying to say is that being a man sucks sometimes. And I dont think the low key or overt man hating that accompanies some schools of feminism does anything positive, and is likely making the situation worse.

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, I totally agree.

[–]Aureus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Boys have had rough and tumble play for almost all of human history. Violent crime is at an all time low since we turned that down. I think evidence is against rough and tumble play.

If we're going with this, MtF transgenderism is also way up since rough-and-tumble play went out.

Hey, if you got a better solution, like I said, I'm all ears. I don't even like dealing with men, but if they're going to negatively affect me, I'm going to have to do something about it.

If your solution is really "have men behave more like women" as the other poster said, you shouldn't be surprised if MtF transgenderism explodes in popularity.

All of this ties in to my thesis that stigmatizing masculinity led directly to a rise in transgenderism.

[–]Trajan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Agreed. We can actually see the results playing out in this social experiment to treat boys and girls as if the genders are interchangeable. The single biggest thing we could do to reduce violence would be for parents to raise children. Boys are particularly affected growing up in a household without a father. The idea that mothers and fathers are interchangeable, and that boys can be socialised to be more feminine, simply doesn't stand up to the evidence. Being raised in a single-parent household correlates with higher rates of obesity, increased risk of mental health issues, reduced upwards social mobility, increased risk of substance abuse, and increased risk of criminal convictions. One interesting hint comes from Harper and McLanahan (2004) who found that boys raised by lone-fathers have the same rate of criminality as those raised in a two-parent household.

If males are becoming violent and disordered it's because society and law is favouring systems that disadvantage them. Feminists have played no small role in pushing for such systems under the guise of fighting 'patriarchy' and wamen power.

[–]just_lesbian_things 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

If males are becoming violent and disordered it's because society and law is favouring systems that disadvantage them. Feminists have played no small role in pushing for such systems under the guise of fighting 'patriarchy' and wamen power.

How are feminists responsible for deadbeat fathers who won't take care of their own children? I'm not quite following the leap of logic.

[–]Trajan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You have just one piece of the problem there. Feminist thinkers (e.g. Dworkin, Greer, de Beauvoir) have long seen marriage as an instrument of patriarchal oppression. They attack marriage, seeing it a woman becoming the property of a man, and champion the idea of women as single-parents while also blaming the men involved. I certainly say that the men are equally to blame in these situations where children are born outside of committed relationships. We need to address the deadbeats, address the reckless mothers, and end this ideological view of it being perfectly fine or even somehow admirable to have children outside of marriage.

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Very well said

[–]Trajan 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks!

[–]Aureus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The solution to that is something that Peterson talks about quite a bit, socializing boys properly. They need proper outlets to vent and learn how to deal with their aggression, they need rough and tumble play. But these are things that generally fall into the toxic masculinity and the "boys will be boys" trope.

I have gotten the feeling talking to all my kids teachers that the ideal little boy in elementary school would basically be a sterotypical girl.

Well said. I see the exact same trends

[–]america_first_1776 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The stats that show women are more likely to attempt are based on self-report data, which itself is unreliable due to the fact women are more likely to be attention seeking

[–]flugegeheimen 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Women are more likely to attempt suicide than men, but men are more likely to succeed. Men succeed more because they choose more violent methods.

In other words men attempt suicide because their life is so shit they actually want to kill themselves, women attempt suicides because they feel entitled to better life and try to get attention this way.

Male violence is a problem for both men and women, as both sexes end up victims to it

That's like saying poor's violence is a problem both for poor and rich. Did you ever see a billionaire robbing people at gunpoint in ghetto? Me neither, what a fucked up scum these poor people must be!

A privileged class of people is less violent, what a novel discovery.

[–]just_lesbian_things 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Did you ever see a billionaire robbing people at gunpoint in ghetto?

A privileged class of people is less violent, what a novel discovery.

False equivalence.

You never see children beating an adult to death, nor do you hear about gay men murdering straight men in a moment of straight panic. Doesn't mean children and gay men are privileged. You can't make those comparisons any more than you can compare male-on-female violence to billionaires robbing people at gunpoint.

That's like saying poor's violence is a problem both for poor and rich.

Your analogy consistently fall apart. I say male violence is a problem for everyone because men are the main perpetrator of violence against both men and women. If we can make men as a class be less violent, everyone benefits. This is mainly for the MRAs who like to cry about the lack of attention being given to male victims of violence whenever male-on-female violence is brought up or "men get raped too!" whenever male-on-female rape is brought up. Statistically speaking, men are doing the majority of the beating and raping.

In other words men attempt suicide because their life is so shit they actually want to kill themselves, women attempt suicide because they feel entitled to better life and try to get attention this way

I'm gonna have to ask for receipts on this one.

[–]flugegeheimen 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Doesn't mean children and gay men are privileged.

Children are privileged in comparison to adults, I'm not sure how is this even something that needs to be spelled out.

You don't hear gay vs straight because mass media don't report these details and you can't tell the sexual orientation from a mugshot or anything that is reported. I'm not sure anyone even bothers to have crime stats on that.

Your analogy consistently fall apart. I say male violence is a problem for everyone because men are the main perpetrator of violence against both men and women. If we can make men as a class be less violent, everyone benefits.

"I say poors violence is a problem for everyone because poors are the main perpetrator of violence against both poor and rich. If we can make poor as a class be less violent, everyone benefits. "

When you say "Your analogy consistently fall apart." I was expecting to see where it actually "falls apart" rather than plain repeat of your original claim again. Did you get distracted and forgot what you wanted to say or something?

I'm gonna have to ask for receipts on this one.

As soon as I see receipts on men choosing more effective suicide methods because of male violence or whatever misandric shit you came up with.

[–]just_lesbian_things 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Children are privileged in comparison to adults, I'm not sure how is this even something that needs to be spelled out.

OK, now I can't take you seriously.

What privileges do children have? In most developed countries, children can't drink, can't drive, can't marry, can't open bank account, can't obtain gainful employment, can't own a house, can't vote, can't live without an adult, can't exist without constant supervision. I don't think they're necessarily oppressed, because there's a good reason why they these rules exist, but what privileges do they have? I don't think you know what privilege means in the context of social and systemic injustice. Why don't you give me your definition of privilege?

You don't hear gay vs straight because mass media don't report these details and you can't tell the sexual orientation from a mugshot or anything that is reported.

Sure they report on it. I read about gay bashing regularly. Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean the information doesn't exist.

When you say "Your analogy consistently fall apart." I was expecting to see where it actually "falls apart" rather than plain repeat of your original claim again.

Rich people aren't a victim of violence that exists within poor circles. Billionaires aren't out there mugging people at gunpoint; but they're also not getting mugged by people at gunpoint. They live in the own bubble. Women don't; women make up a significant percentage of victims of male violence.

As soon as I see receipts on men choosing more effective suicide methods because of male violence or whatever misandric shit you came up with

Uh oh, somebody sounds hurt. Men are more violent; both against others and against themselves. What sort of receipts do you need?

[–]flugegeheimen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What privileges do children have?

They are literally supported by adults without having to worry where to live and what to eat tomorrow? We were talking in context of violence and in this context absolutely obvious what kind of privilege and privileged class I meant. The right to vote doesn't affect your chances to be robbed and neither is most of the shit you listed for unknown reason.

Sure they report on it. I read about gay bashing regularly. Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean the information doesn't exist.

If you want that kind of demagogy then your initial claim can be dismissed the same way.

Rich people aren't a victim of violence that exists within poor circles. Billionaires aren't out there mugging people at gunpoint; but they're also not getting mugged by people at gunpoint.

This is incorrect but irrelevant.

Women don't; women make up a significant percentage of victims of male violence.

My point was that a privileged class of people is less violent. The point of rich\poor analogy was to demonstrate that the idea "privileged class of people being less violent" isn't exactly my innovative breakthrough, we all know that well-rounded successful people are less prone to crimes and violence. Billionaire is just an extreme example: they are so privileged, it would be ridiculous to even imagine them engaging in armed robbery. So instead of your "male violence" misandric bullshit we have a less inane explanation of women being allegedly less violent which is : women are privileged.

Uh oh, somebody sounds hurt. Men are more violent; both against others and against themselves. What sort of receipts do you need?

Uh oh, somebody sounds hurt. Women choose less effective methods of suicide because they do it for attention. What sort of receipts do you need?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You don't hear gay vs straight because mass media don't report these details and you can't tell the sexual orientation from a mugshot or anything that is reported. I'm not sure anyone even bothers to have crime stats on that.

You just have to look at the nature of the crime, not the self identification of the sexual orientation of the perpetrator. Any sexual crime done by a male to another male, ie rape and molestation, is done by a homosexual because any man who rapes or molests another man or boy is homosexual by default.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

nor do you hear about gay men murdering straight men in a moment of straight panic.

Gay men grooming and raping boys is quite common though, they sometimes even murder their victims:

https://freewestmedia.com/2017/01/09/gang-rape-of-boy-in-sweden-part-of-afghan-culture/

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/nov/13/afghanistan-paedophile-ring-that-abused-over-500-boys

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Corll

[–]jet199 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Clearly testosterone causes people to become violent.

This isn't just a difference between men and women. Men with higher testosterone are more violent on average even though they have the same socialisation and upbringing as normal men. Testosterone also causes the same difference between male and female mammals. The evidence is pretty clear cut whether people like it or not.

[–]just_lesbian_things 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah people like to say that, but they don't understand the implications.

See, I think, to participate in society you need to meet a certain standard of behavior. Kind of like how if someone wants to drive, they need to get a license. If they can't pass their driving test, they don't get a license and they can't drive. I don't care if it's because they are near sighted and can't see the road, or so fucking old that they can't react to traffic, they're not getting behind the wheel.

I say things like "maybe it's socialization" or "why don't you retake your test with glasses on" because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. But if what you say is true, and men are innately violent as a result of their hormones, then we'll have to look into more drastic measures. As we've already established, I don't give a fuck if men get castrated. Beyond that, we might have to look into barring men from owning weapons that may exacerbate their violent nature. We may have to ban men from certain occupations that wouldn't be suited to a violent prone demographic. After all, traffic laws don't change to accommodate people who fail their driving test. Here's to hoping it's socialization.

[–]mangosplums 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not socialization though. That's one of the most obvious things.

[–]bald-janitor 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Ok shill

[–]FediNetizen 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men succeed more because they choose more violent methods.

I think it would be more accurate to say it's because they use more effective methods. Sometimes a suicide attempt is a cry for help, and sometimes it's because you actually want to die. Men succeed more because they're actually trying to kill themselves, women attempt (and use known unreliable methods) more because it's often a cry for help rather than a genuine desire to die.

[–]Aureus[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

There are young (and old) men out there who think their feelings = reality.

That's not "self-worth", just delusion. Woke progressivism is what's giving them that delusion.

A perfect comparison would be to religious zealots. Religious zealots have been known to whip themselves, starve themselves, even kill themselves for their belief. Zealots remove all trace of their individual personality and subjugate themselves to an ideology. How can such an individual have "self-worth"? Who are they assigning worth to? Not their self - their body is harmed and their personality is subjugated to the religion they follow. Their ideology gets the worth, not their self.

Telling a zealot he has "too much ego" will not shake his belief in God. He may even agree with you, go home to whip himself some more, with his faith only strengthened because of it. His delusion is not due to too much ego, but too little. He has turned himself into an empty vessel, a blank slate, a zombie to be controlled by another. He has no personality of his own, just an ideology where one is supposed to be.

Doesn't this behavior remind you of TiMs? TiMs are complete zealots about trans ideology. TiMs destroy their bodies and brainwash themselves for this ideology. Can you really look at such a person and say, "This is a person with a lot of self-respect"?

What kind of person joins a cult? Is it usually a headstrong person who refuses to be bossed around by anyone? Or is it usually a lonely desperate person, with no self-esteem, looking for some sense of meaning in their lives and for someone to tell them what to do?

TL;DR: A male who hates himself and wants to chop off his dick does not have "too much masculine self-worth". Going after his self-worth even more will just reinforce his delusion that much harder.

[–]just_lesbian_things 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

That's not "self-worth", just delusion.

It's both. Plenty of delusional young women with low self-worth starve themselves to death as a side effect of their eating disorder without bothering the rest of us.

Doesn't this behavior remind you of TiMs? TiMs are complete zealots about trans ideology.

No. Trans ideology is a vehicle for male trans people and their egos, not the other way around. You would know if you actually speak to some of these people. They'll support "girl brain in a male body" until you ask them to get a brain scan. They're against gatekeeping until they get past the gatekeepers. They turn on each other constantly. The ideology doesn't have a shred of internal consistency; whether that's self-id/gatekeeping, non-binary identities, or transition itself. Trans ideology is whatever the trans person needs it to be. Trans ideology is constantly demanding support from everyone else and constantly trying to attach itself to other movements (gay rights, feminism, civil rights) because they're parasitic. They have no principles or goals, just a bunch of selfish people in it for personal gains.

You say this because you don't deal with their bullshit. You're watching the shitshow unfold from a safe distance. They stopped being victims when they started forcing their way into women's spaces and demanding that lesbians suck their girl penises. There's nothing low self-worth about demanding that somebody else suck your dick. That's entitlement.

Edited to add: I will say handmaidens and trans supporters are probably closer to your religious zealot example. Now those people (usually women) probably have low self-worth.

"too much masculine self-worth"

I didn't say masculine. Take that out of your quotes.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The ideology doesn't have a shred of internal consistency

Yeah, unlike feminism. Right. Would you like some patriarchy theory with your bullshit?

Question: once your done with your college lesbianism, are you going to marry a rich guy?

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I want to be clear that just because someone has low self-worth doesn't mean they're not a victimizer. In fact I'd state the opposite, that someone who hates themselves is more likely to hate others as well.

TiMs are the perfect example of the self-hating hater. Their own self-hatred opens the door to them hating others. Someone who loves themselves, really loves themselves, is not insecure and is content with others and the world. Someone who loves themselves also does not want to destroy their body or renounce their gender.

I firmly believe if you did an experiment where you took a group of men and suppressed their self-worth, transgenderism would spike among them. Even if you did it so effectively that they constantly doubted themselves and questioned everything they ever thought, all it would take is one radical progressive woman to brainwash them into trans ideology.

Look at Susie Green from the Mermaids foundation. Men with zero self-worth, who are in a constant state of self-doubt, would not be able to question her. They would take everything she says on faith.

Really I'm not sure either of us can convince the other here. But reality bears this out. Throughout human history, men with high self-worth did not try to renounce their masculinity, mutilate themselves, put on dresses, and invade women's baths and dressing-rooms. It's only once third-wave feminism appeared on the scene that that started, and transgenderism grew proportionally with the social success of third-wave feminism. I believe that in the future, as long as third-wave feminism works to suppress male self-worth, transgenderism will only grow with it.

[–]just_lesbian_things 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I want to be clear that just because someone has low self-worth doesn't mean they're not a victimizer.

You can also be a high self-worth asshole.

Someone who loves themselves, really loves themselves, is not insecure and is content with others and the world

Nope. Ever heard of narcissism? Psychopathy? Egomaniacs?

Look at Susie Green from the Mermaids foundation

Most AGPs have not heard of her, much less listened to what she said. I don't even care enough to listen to what she says.

But reality bears this out. Throughout human history, men with high self-worth did not try to renounce their masculinity, mutilate themselves, put on dresses, and invade women's baths and dressing-rooms

False equivalence. This didn't happen throughout history, so it's not a good comparison. This is like saying cyberbullies aren't assholes because assholes throughout history didn't dox and harass people on the internet. Women's bathroom and women being allowed in public is a pretty recent thing. There wasn't much to appropriate.

as long as third-wave feminism works to suppress male self-worth

They don't. They promote individuality which feeds into the self-worth of entitled, narcissistic men.

[–]mangosplums 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It depends on the TIM. There are some who don't chop their dicks off. The only thing they do is call themselves trans, then go onto lesbian forums and try to convince lesbians to suck their "girldicks". Apparently lesbians should like it because their vagina is just the same as a strapon. This type is obviously an entitled, arrogant psycho.

[–]america_first_1776 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

There are young (and old) men out there who think their feelings = reality.

You're almost self-aware, it's adorable. You really really think men are the ones who are more likely to think with their feelings, despite ample evidence suggesting otherwise.

[–]whistlepig 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

There are young (and old) men out there who think their feelings = reality.

It doesn't appear you're making this massive assumption based on any real experience. If you're basing it on the fact that you often see men over compensating for weaknesses or sense thereof, then I don't think you're really paying attention.

[–]just_lesbian_things 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Ah, yes, whistlepig. Let me be as clear and unambiguous as possible so it won't go over your head this time.

We are talking about a subset of mostly "young" men who are swayed by "trans ideology". Traditionalists like Jordan Peterson and OP think they're lacking in self worth and that masculine mentorship would be a great cure-all to all their problems. I'm of the opinion that it's an over-inflated sense of self worth that causes these men to impose their personal, emotional problems on the rest of us. I think it takes a special level of egoism to demand that everyone pretend you're a woman because you "feel like one".

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

But people can also be highly confident in one area of their lives and have very low self esteem in another. We recognise that in women all the time, I'm sure men are the same.

Personally I've seen a lot of male detransitioners say that their dislike of their male sensuality was part of the reason for their gender dysphoria. They viewed castration as the key to removing all their problems and to make them a better person. They didn't want to objectify or lear over women so started objectifying themselves as women instead which then lead to AGP.

Male sensuality isn't nice and cuddly, you can see that everyday from how they describe it themselves and act. And it isn't all down to social power structures or women's weakness either, in gay male culture they are even more about objectification, promiscuity, fetish and dominance than the average straight man would want.

So what to do. Do you tell all men they are faulty and evil, but pretend you are not doing that by throwing in the odd "but it's socialisation not biology" as though that helps, or find ways that everyone can express their different sexualities in a healthy way so people don't see castration and putting on an act their whole lives as a great plan.

[–]just_lesbian_things 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You're operating under a lot of wrong assumptions about me. I will clear them up.

We recognise that in women all the time

There is no we, because I don't recognise that in women all the time. If you want to make this point, you will need to elaborate.

They didn't want to objectify or lear over women so started objectifying themselves as women instead which then lead to AGP

No, AGPs have no qualms about inserting themselves into lesbian spaces and leering at lesbians. I wish they kept it to themselves, but they very much do not. They have shut down any and all non-inclusive lesbian spaces as well as ostracizing and banning lesbians who won't play along.

Male sensuality isn't nice and cuddly, you can see that everyday from how they describe it themselves and act

I don't give a fuck about male sensuality. I generally do not give a fuck about men. Which leads to my next point

So what to do. Do you tell all men they are faulty and evil, but pretend you are not doing that by throwing in the odd "but it's socialisation not biology" as though that helps, or find ways that everyone can express their different sexualities in a healthy way so people don't see castration and putting on an act their whole lives as a great plan.

I will call out bad behavior regardless of who is doing it. I hope it is socialisation and not the innate nature of men because I like to pretend that people are inherently not bad and, despite my indifference towards them, I like to believe men are capable of redemption. I'm willing to go with your solution, if you have a better one on how to address the bad behavior, but I will not be helping men "find ways to express their sexualities". I think this is a pretty fair deal, more than generous honestly, considering how extremely predatory and disrespectful men have acted towards me regarding my sexuality. Also, it seems that you have a vested interest in making sure dudes don't cut their balls or dicks off, but please understand that not all of us share your passion. I, for one, don't give a fuck. I just don't agree that castrated/dickless men are women and I don't intend to pretend otherwise to help delusional men through their emotional issues.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

We two should fight to end the Selective Service Act and get women into the draft. Those men and their silly feelings have monopolized that section of society for long enough. It's time we listen to women with Twitter PTSD that their experiences are just as traumatic.

Sure, it's men who put feels over reals, though. And if she feels it's rape the next day, it's rape. If a person feels slighted, it's a micro-aggression. It's some unconscious bias shit and this is driven by men. Must be the same reason men outperform women in STEM, because those subjects are so subjective and feelings based.

You lesbo psychos and you feminists are so full of shit, it's unbelievable. You are liars, pathetic hypocrites, but the one satisfying thing to see here is that you are so unbelievably stupid that you can keep stepping on the same hoe that slams you in the face. Out of all the Reddit bannings, your groups' bannings were some of the most hilarious. You will not learn, you will employ censorship, mobbing, ideological compliance, rewriting of history, class-based victomology, misandry, and all the usual feminist bullshit.

We can all see it: This is your own playbook at work. The joke is on you. You people are ridiculous and pathetic. It's been a pure joy for me to be able to talk to some of your ilk directly on this site because your kind works tirelessly in every community to have yourself shielded from argument and not have your feelings hurt. Let's hope this site isn't run by some simp who can be manipulated after one of you inevitably sucks his dick, lesbo or not. Poor womonz being harassed on the Internet! Someone ban these women-haters!

Fuck all feminists. And talking about mental issues with sexuality, go see a therapist about your lesbian shit. It's pretty embarrassing what you write. Seems that the only reason you choose to munch on vaginas is because a guy won't have you or you are too psychologically fucked in the head to relate to one. What neon color is your hair, BTW?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I'm a feminist ally. I want to see them working in sewer pipes and rubbish dumps. I'm tired of the sexist patriarchy oppressing them out of these jobs.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are doing god's work, my friend. This is a form of oppression that must end soon.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that third wave feminism paved the road for trans activism.

Yes, maybe, but I think we still disagree on which ideological pillars the rest of feminism shares with what is really at the core of what makes these ideologies bad. From what I see, I don't think we have learned our lesson. If we had, this wouldn't keep repeating itself in myriads of forms of wokeness that keep infecting our circles.

People accuse me of sounding like a broken record but society is the broken record to me. If we really had such a good handle on where we went wrong, I think we wouldn't keep repeating the same mistakes.

There are young (and old) men out there who think their feelings = reality. If that's not a symptom of ego overinflation, I don't know what is. Men need to get the fuck over themselves.

Ah, yes, it's men's feelings that are over-valued in society. Sure. The majority of activism and recent legislation that has come out of feminist circles is based on feelings. It's based on perceived threats, perceived this or that, taking offense, not feeling safe. It's women that get safe-spaces, not men. They are told to "man up", you retarded feminist.

The only men who have ever gotten this much coddling, predictably, are trans-women, men who emulate women. Why do you think there is this huge reporting gap, this virtual absence of stories about trans-men? Society cares about girls, women -- and now a little about men who try to be like women.

"Women and children first!" you stupid cunt. It's why we use men and boys as cannon fodder, not women or girls.

That has been humanity's motto, predictably and consistent with everything we expect from a social, sexually dimorphic species as ourselves. You are clueless about biology, you are clueless about psychology, and you are clueless about history.

Just like the migrant crisis, women decided the program. The sisterhood decided trannies were the hot new issue and the sisterhood will need to decide when it's time to move on, as we see they are in the process of moving on.

It's so apparent that you people are basic feminists. "this isn't an unpopular opinion" Yes, because you're too dense to learn the actual lesson, you are too stupid to see the actual dynamics. What is going on completely sails over your head. That's maybe at least one point you feminists are correct about: if you are privileged, you tend to not see your privilege. Jesus fucking Christ, you cunts are so unbelievably stupid it's maddening. And are you people mobbing these discussions like you were on Reddit? I keep seeing upvotes for the dumbest, thinnest arguments in these threads, without any of the arguments to back them up. If you had as many arguments as you have people mindlessly parroting your asinine feminist ideology, you could actually be taken seriously. Everything about your behaviors and your arguments screams that you did not learn jack shit, so stop pretending it's all old news, you dumb piece of shit. How is this for the pyramid of debate?