all 19 comments

[–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some suspect the nationalist movement there to be heavily infiltrated by Jews and Freemasons. They peddle sodomy, secularism and anti-Islam pro zionism. Some suspect that its outright subverted by French intel services.

The French furthermore are a very degenerate people with libertine inclinations. Half the films there are about sexually unsatisfied wives, cheating, sodomy, prostitution, drugs and other weird stuff. Germans and yes, Anglos have more conservative instincts with greater emphasis on sexual fidelity.

France was the birthplace of the modern world after all, it was the greatest bastion of Freemasonry until the 19th century when Britain became the main host

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

heavily infiltrated by Jews

Zemmour is a Jew, but he openly calls out the Great Replacement on national television. He even called out the Jewish elements in the American left.

pro zionism

Marine Le Pen supports Assad...

Germans and yes, Anglos have more conservative instincts

That's not really true. France literally had huge rallies against abortion.

France was the birthplace of the modern world after all

No, Britain was.

Anyway, you're way off on France. The French have had some of the most influential radical right-wing thinkers in the world. Not to mention the fact that the country was one of the biggest collaborators during World War II. The idea that Britain has always been more conservative than France is outright nonsense.

[–]PeddaKondappa 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

The French are the people who invented civic nationalism as we know it. The motto of the French nation is the Satanic triad of "liberté, égalité, fraternité." The French nation was built on the explicit rejection of traditional norms and hierarchy, and on the notion that nothing is sacred. Even the so-called "far-right nationalists" in France, like Marine Le Pen, have no choice but to support unconditional abortion and civil unions for sodomites. All in all, it is a hopeless country. I feel sorry for the French people who truly comprehend the situation they are in.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The French nation was built on the explicit rejection of traditional norms and hierarchy, and on the notion that nothing is sacred.

The French Republic, not the French nation. The French nation has tried to undermine the Republic ever since the Revolution. Do you have any idea how many times the Republic has failed? Go read a history book for fuck's sake.

Even the so-called "far-right nationalists" in France, like Marine Le Pen, have no choice but to support unconditional abortion and civil unions for sodomites.

That's not a hill I want to die on to be honest. And one of these French "sodomites" has done more for our cause than you ever will.

All in all, it is a hopeless country.

Are you an American? Because if you are you have no right to say this shit about France.

[–]PeddaKondappa 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The French Republic, not the French nation. The French nation has tried to undermine the Republic ever since the Revolution. Do you have any idea how many times the Republic has failed? Go read a history book for fuck's sake.

The Republican ideals remain as the cornerstone of every French government, no matter how many Republics have come and gone. The failure of individual governments or regimes have not changed the attitudes of the French nation. The reason why Frenchmen were upset at the recent beheading of Samuel Paty is because it was a particularly violent rejection of their liberal worldview. Frenchmen revel in being able to insult or make fun of anything. They are upset that one group (Muslims) actually takes themselves seriously enough to act with deadly violence when their sensibilities are offended. The ideal world, in the French liberal view, is one where every group has been sufficiently deracinated to the point where they mock everything around them, and no longer hold anything sacred. In other words, they would like to see universal disenchantment (Entzauberung, to use Max Weber's terminology).

That's not a hill I want to die on to be honest. And one of these French "sodomites" has done more for our cause than you ever will.

Are you an American? Because if you are you have no right to say this shit about France.

I am not American, European, or even white. I don't have any particular attachment to your "cause" or your people.

[–]NeoRail 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The issue here is that you are criticising the French for being liberal democrats all the while approaching this problem from a liberal democratic lens. Is it really "the French" that decide what's on the agenda of the government, in the speeches of the politicians and on the headlines of the newspapers? If you are approaching this from an elitist and anti-democratic perspective, it makes zero sense to hold the entire French nation accountable for what journalists and politicians do. When liberals rule a nation, gradually every aspect of its social life becomes coloured in liberal hues. Despite all this, France is probably the most politically divided country in Europe and the French have been embroiled in constant political struggle over the future of France ever since the fall of the Bourbon monarchy.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]PeddaKondappa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Obviously, it was the elites and not ordinary Frenchmen who decided particular policies, like the immigration policies. The ordinary Frenchman may not be in favor of that. But I am talking about the overall socio-cultural milieu of the country, and not particular policies or the agenda of government, which everyone with a brain understands is determined by elites and not by ordinary people.

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How are socio-cultural milieus different? Is the socio-cultural sphere not regulated top down through funding, censorship, laws and institutions? Furthermore, to ascribe a homogeneous character to the entire culture and leave no room for dissent at all is similarly unfair. Most Europeans typically know very little about "European values" and liberalism. The little that they do know, they parrot simply because it's what they are expected to do. The actual true believers of liberal tropes most probably do not number over 25% in any nation even with the most generous estimation. Most of those are still absorbed through soundbites and mass media. The actual number of enthusiastic liberals has always been very small in Western societies and generally limited to the upper middle class and those who aspire to be a part of it.

[–]PeddaKondappa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How are socio-cultural milieus different?

Because it is impossible for a system to shape the thoughts of all people, especially a liberal system that doesn't use totalitarian mechanisms of control, as were employed in Stalin's Soviet Union for example. Any system relies on consent, even if passive and somewhat manufactured consent. If there existed a strong French culture with deep roots among the ordinary people that fanatically opposed liberalism, then the liberal system would crumble in the face of mass opposition and would not be able to totally shape and direct society. That's why secular liberalism failed in many Middle Eastern countries, even though the rulers and elites of many Middle Eastern countries in the 20th century tended to be secular and liberal in orientation (Ataturk, Nasser, and Reza Shah were all examples of this). The simple fact is that the ordinary Frenchman doesn't really oppose liberalism in any meaningful way, and doesn't belong to an entrenched anti-liberal counterculture. The Yellow Vest movement from a couple years ago might be the closest thing to a mass anti-liberal movement in France, which is pretty pathetic.

[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because it is impossible for a system to shape the thoughts of all people, especially a liberal system that doesn't use totalitarian mechanisms of control, as were employed in Stalin's Soviet Union for example.

You would be surprised. The current liberal system has far more control and power over people than Stalinism ever did. The only real differences are that liberalism is good at obfuscating its dominance, operates on a much larger scale and limits the application of directly coercive measures to a smaller number of people. Other than that, coercion and demoralisation feature just as prominently. Dissidents capable of spearheading a political response are crushed with raw force and have their lives utterly ruined, which also demoralises the less courageous of the politically aware. The less politically aware on the other hand are dragged into the liberal-conservative false dichotomy. This completely paralyses any attempt at direct change. Then you have the cultural and social sphere which is entirely managed, publicised and subsidised top down. If you are a liberal or an opportunist, you can become influential and powerful. If you are not, you better keep quiet or lose your position. This is how liberals, more or less covertly, maintain their pop culture monopoly and produce awful garbage that conditions every attitude, activity, opinion and knowledge of those who grow up without a strong, well articulated intellectual and moral influence, this being more or less 95% of the people. The only people who escape this are the ones that "fall through the cracks", to put it roughly. Unfortunately with the advent of mass media, television and the internet this type of conditioning can penetrate even into the most rural, irrelevant and impoverished community, so being unimportant no longer exempts you from interaction with liberal culture. Against this extremely powerful system, which generously employs the carrot and the stick method, all vague and instinctual opposition, if it can even be articulated properly, is neutralised through demoralisation by depriving political dissidents from the will to fight a hopeless battle and simultaneously having the more general effect of pushing every idealistically inclined member of the general population to nihilism and consumerism.

If there existed a strong French culture with deep roots among the ordinary people that fanatically opposed liberalism, then the liberal system would crumble in the face of mass opposition and would not be able to totally shape and direct society.

This is liberal and democratic thinking. The masses do not govern, they are governed - this is one of the major obfuscations of liberalism. There actually was a deep rooted French culture that attempted to drive out liberalism in the days of the First Republic and the liberal government crushed it with brutal armed force. The professional army made short work of poorly organised peasant rebellions in the name of church and king. In fact, the very reason why France has such a strong tradition of secularism and anti-clericalism today is because of the continuous opposition of the church to liberalism and the liberal attempt to completely crush and drive out all Catholic influence from the country.

That's why secular liberalism failed in many Middle Eastern countries, even though the rulers and elites of many Middle Eastern countries in the 20th century tended to be secular and liberal in orientation (Ataturk, Nasser, and Reza Shah were all examples of this).

I can't speak for Iran, but I fail to see how Egypt isn't a liberal democratic country. As to the failure of liberalism in Turkey, again the answer is in the elite. Without Erdogan and his associates, Kemalism would still be the governing ideology in Turkey. Even then, it is too early to tell what shape Erdogan's Turkey will take. In either case, the European political class has long since been sterilised and purged from any elements that might disturb the status quo - even where there are some non-liberal elements mixed in such as monarchs, they are completely liberal and bourgeois in their attitudes and retain nothing from the aristocratic character of their predecessors.

The simple fact is that the ordinary Frenchman doesn't really oppose liberalism in any meaningful way, and doesn't belong to an entrenched anti-liberal counterculture.

Very few people do this because almost no one understands liberalism or democracy. If that's the criteria you are using, you will always be dealing with elites, radicals and intellectuals rather than the common man. Even in anti-liberal countries outside Europe, I doubt the people understand liberal democracy except in the simplest possible terms, this being a parliamentary institution and a voting system. The main opposition to liberalism outside the West seems to piggyback onto opposition to Western imperialism and militarism rather than a coherent and elaborate criticism of liberal ideology itself. It's also worth noting that there were strong anti-liberal countercultures in the West of both leftist and rightist varieties, but they never managed to seize power and eventually dissipated, as all popular and democratic movements do if they do not receive state endorsement.

The Yellow Vest movement from a couple years ago might be the closest thing to a mass anti-liberal movement in France, which is pretty pathetic.

It was a momentous event for Europe, the turnout was one of the biggest in centuries and more importantly the character of the protests weren't specifically leftist. The issue is that it couldn't secure any notable results because liberal elites have a monopoly on power and therefore no need for popular approval.

[–]asterias 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Kemalism is a murderous ideology created by a cryptojew who was driven to power by the jews of Salonica. Even its claim to democracy and secularism is false, as Kemal was a dictator who ordered the death of millions of people, including those who opposed him politically.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The Republican ideals remain as the cornerstone of every French government

Of every Republican government. And you can't even compare all Republican governments. De Gaulle's government was radically different from Macron's government.

Anyway, the majority of the French public isn't even that liberal.

I am not American, European, or even white. I don't have any particular attachment to your "cause" or your people.

OK?

[–]Fitter_HappierWhite Nationalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It has the strongest nationalist movement in the West. It's also the birthplace of the Alt-Right through the ideas of the Nouvelle Droite.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

/u/NeoRail Do you know if there are serious nationalists?

As far as I'm aware almost all groups are what /u/casparvoneverec said here:

Some suspect the nationalist movement there to be heavily infiltrated by Jews and Freemasons. They peddle sodomy, secularism and anti-Islam pro zionism. Some suspect that its outright subverted by French intel services.

[–]NeoRail 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The main political movement is Le Pen's National Rally, which has already undergone two separate transformations in a moderate direction in the past years. The first was the transformation from a nationalist mass party to a basically patriotic, anti-immigrant, Eurosceptic party. The second transformation was a lot more recent and involved the abandonment of "Hard Euroscepticism" - which means National Rally no longer aim to leave the European Union. National Rally has considerable electoral potential, but from a nationalist perspective it's only interesting in terms of what it might become, rather than what it is right now.

The really notable elements of the French nationalist movement are "metapolitical" and don't engage in parliamentary politics. Curiously, the French movement has an unbroken tradition that links all the way back to the Vichy state. To give one example, Dominique Venner, who killed himself in protest against the French government a few years ago, was one of those with such ties. He's also a representative of the intellectual right in France, which is still considerably strong today despite the extensive postwar purges. Some people are critical of them, but the Nouvelle Droite and GRECE are other examples of right wing intellectual groups. There is also a strong literary tradition on the French right, but by now it is basically a residue of what it was at the time of people like Pierre Drieu La Rochelle. Even today though, it's still possible to associate someone like Michel Houellebecq with the right, which is a phenomenon with no equivalents anywhere else in Europe, as far as I am aware.

Apart from its strong intellectual and cultural groups, there's also the youth movement. French right wing student groups are probably among the most significant in Europe. I believe the French and Austrian chapters of Generation Identity are the biggest and most influential ones. The groups themselves aren't as important as the fact that there are people interested enough in them to participate. In addition to the student groups there's also a more unofficial youth politics scene with smaller, regional groups with a more defined identity. Typically, those promote counter-culture and an atmosphere of protest and discontent simply because of the symbols and lifestyles they associate themselves with, rather than as a result of political campaigning. Keep in mind that my information on the youth movement is essentially third hand, but as far as I am aware it seems to be correct.

France probably has one of the most major and diverse nationalist movements in Europe, but there aren't any particularly interesting political parties.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

which has already undergone two separate transformations in a moderate direction in the past years.

Most of that is optics though.

which is still considerably strong today

I would argue it hasn't been this strong and influential in decades. The strength and influence of left-wing intellectuals in France has collapsed.

[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most of that is optics though.

For the most part, this is probably the case, but such a significant shift is impossible to ignore.

I would argue it hasn't been this strong and influential in decades. The strength and influence of left-wing intellectuals in France has collapsed.

Did you mean right wing intellectuals? I wasn't talking about leftist academics, though I would personally object to the idea that they've become comparatively weaker in France. As far as I am aware, they still hold the upper hand in terms of influence, it's just that an intellectual right actually exists in France, which can't be said for many other European countries.