all 9 comments

[–]Nombre27 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

without the supernatural, objective morality cannot be achieved.

Why's that?

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

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    [–]Nombre27 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    On what grounds can objective material morality stand on?

    Because Truth exists. Take an extreme example of a behavior. Say you like strangling your neighbors in public. Would any society tolerate your presence and that behavior? If they did, they wouldn't last very long. From this, I think it's fair to say that there are things/behaviors that all societies would not tolerate and if they do then they would eventually cease to exist (or at least create a lot of harm), thus objective morality (or rules, whatever the best way to say this is) would have to exist for any society that wants to exist (or be well). I think that (a society wanting to exist) might be a key part of this. I suppose that could be taken further as to what kind of moral rules create what kind of a society. Sure some people want to tolerate degenerate behavior but look at the costs and consequences that takes on that society. It's a sick organism.

    What it (the rules that comprise objective morality) is is another question that is probably hard to answer.

    If you're going to live in a community you have to agree on things. If you don't want to partake in that specific social contract then you won't be part of that society. I suppose this might fail the universal part, or maybe it doesn't. Maybe the universal aspect isn't the specific moral rules (if I can say it that way) but that the universal part is that any society where you don't want to align yourself with the way things operate isn't (or at least shouldn't be) required to tolerate your presence. Once you're gone from a community, as far as it tangibly matters, you cease to exist to that community.

    Seems like this is coming down to mental masturbation abstractions vs. real life. Who you live around and how things operate proximally to you is more important than things that are very distal.

    I welcome any criticism you have of this as it's not my forte and you seem to be more well-read on it than I.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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      [–]Nombre27 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Interesting. Thank you.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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          [–]SoylentCapitalist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          Will to Power

          Have you read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, specifically the chapter Self-Surpassing? He's describing the will to power as power over yourself, being self-motivating and a self-rolling wheel who isn't a slave to your own mind. You can not have a will to live without a will to power. This explanation also backs up what I'm saying if you have not read the book:

          https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/8gxc0y/what_is_the_will_to_power/dyflom6?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

          [–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

          A "collectivist" interpretation of either Christianity or Nietzscheanism will necessarily lead to deformed conclusions, since this is not a real concern for either of these worldviews and especially not for Nietzscheanism. It's also worth noting that viewing the Will to Power as a simple craving for control and power over external objects is the crudest possible view of the matter. The "doctrines of the afterlife" also serve a function far more important and expansive than the simple, material, rational description of life after death, particularly when conceived as a direct extension of earthly life.

          But I think this perspective allows or the greatest pleasure for the greatest number of people

          That's utilitarianism, a popular and basic form of liberal morality.

          [–][deleted]  (7 children)

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            [–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

            Hence the fundamental flaw of both.

            Flattening the depth of every doctrine to a binary between social individualism and social collectivism is not helpful.

            The human individual does not exist.

            Unless you're coming from some sort of Buddhist perspective, I think you will have a really hard time in trying to claim that.

            If it were, I would actually be more supportive of Nietzsche. A Ragnar Redbeard openly calls for rape, murder, and theft to achieve your goals. But when Nietzsche is allowed to show off his amoralism in fictional forum, like in his actual life, Zarathustra is all talk. Bumbling around how people should become the higher man for themselves as the world passes him by. Its a fundamentally incoherent idea because of its individualistic mindset.

            What are the "goals"? Who sets them? Why do they matter? Do you choose to pursue those goals or are you just an unconscious addict enslaved to them? Controlling the world is worthless if you can't even control yourself. This is why Nietzsche thought it is valuable to conquer oneself.

            I think that is a large element of morality, unless you relish the thought of you and others being unhappy for the sake of it.

            Why should happiness come first? Do you mean to tell me that there is nothing you would sacrifice your happiness for? Is the life of a pampered plutocrat better than that of the adventurer who struggles with misfortune daily?

            My main difference is I believe that you should dominate the people you consider to be enemies.

            So do liberals, they just think that you are the enemy.

            There's a balancing act, and sometimes one will dominate the other, but I believe striving for oneself and others at the same time is possible.

            On the personal level, balance plays an important role. As a basis of morality, however, this statement is incoherent. How can we objectively measure and calculate the perfect balance between fighting for the happiness of group A and group B? That would be entirely subjective.

            [–][deleted]  (5 children)

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              [–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

              Every action an individual takes, to some degree, affects the collective. Every action an individual does, to some degree, wants to be validated by the collective. The herd is an inseparable part of the equation.

              Your first claim may well be correct in the general case, but there is really no justification for your second claim. Everyone is to one extent or another subject to the conditions of the time, but how each person chooses to react is up to him. That most choose to remain passive by no means negates their freedom of choice.

              Do we want child rapists to have full mastery of themselves? Transexuals who want to use your daughter's locker room? The end result of Nietzscheanism is whoever has the power to enforce their will onto others. But I think we can retain the moral argument by appealing to facts, our desires, and the person's desire to fill obligations to the group (I.E., we could say "Do you really want to use a woman's locker room when every woman in there will feel uncomfortable?). Now, this is still subjective and I still encourage using force against our enemies, but I think this makes us cases more appealing than just saying everything is related to power alone.

              You are interpreting what I said in the most materialist and individualist way possible, so you end up missing the point. Nietzsche wasn't some vapid activist promoting "autonomy" in the way people do today. A drug addict certainly retains his autonomy in this sense, since we can say that a drug addict can persist in his destructive ways free of outside interference. From Nietzsche's point of view, the drug addict is still a slave to his addiction. The will to power isn't merely about overcoming the external, it is about overcoming the internal as well. If you are not internally free and in control of all passions and addictions, you are still a slave and lack the will to power.

              There are two types of happiness - one that is from the fleeting animalistic desires, and the other more permanent by achieving self-actualization in relation between yourself and society, I.E. your role. You aren't virtuous just because you starve and die in a dangerous land, while the rich aren't bad because they enjoy their wealth as they master the talents of finance that run the country. But some people were made to enjoy the wilds and others to master the stock exchange. Neither would it be good to have one pretend to be the other.

              We are dealing with utilitarianism here so virtue is out of the question by definition. The issue is why then should happiness be considered the ultimate good? You avoided answering my question about if you would be willing to sacrifice your happiness to attain a higher goal - I suspect that was because in all likelihood, there is something you consider worthy of that sacrifice. The problem with your response here is that you're again giving undue focus to "relations between the self and society" and social roles, as well as pleasure. Some people who live difficult lives are outcasts and do not have any relations with society, much less a role. This doesn't dissuade them, nor does it make them feel discontent, because they find meaning not just in the easy and pleasant things, but also in the difficult and unpleasant ones. To reduce this to a simple matter of pleasure through self-actualisation ignores the fact that there are many various reasons why one might want to pursue a difficult life. A sense of duty, for example.

              The problem with liberals is that they have poor friend-enemy distinction. "Tolerance of everyone, except the intolerant." They'll tolerate any amount of abuse as long as that group is not straight white men. I think this can be helped through understanding of the truth and a development of self-respect, though yes, potential for change is limited.

              What's your problem with this if you are a moral subjectivist? They are just applying your principles as they understand them. You can try to persuade them that they are misguided and you have a more correct interpretation, but if they disagree, why should their conduct be considered unreasonable?

              As stated, I am a moral subjectivist. But understanding the facts of reality and human nature will lead to better outcomes for what you decide on.

              Utilitarianism is based on the 18th century liberal "understanding" that human beings are essentially simple, domesticated, materialistic animals whose lives revolve around the innocent pursuit of "happiness" in the same sense as for example you would see with a dog reacting to being fed steak. Nietzsche referred to these people as "the Last Men" and tended to compare them to cattle.

              Nietzsche denies aspects like truth, happiness, and altruism as fundamental elements to the human experience.

              Why do you think that? He was critical of the moralism infused in those concepts, but as far as I am aware he never dismissed any of them on their own terms.

              Dive fully, and you'll make mistakes that will wind you screwed by your own actions or others, for example, accepting racist radfems into the movement.

              This ties in to what I said earlier about the will to power. "Will to power" doesn't mean "I do whatever I want", "will to power" means always struggling to overcome the greatest challenges within the self and outside the self.

              [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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                [–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                I just think it is very easy to justify extreme indulgence in pleasure as being of this world and collective action as herd mentality. We have just as many radical left wing thinkers inspired by him as radical right, and it spawns from this incoherency.

                I have never seen a left wing radical inspired by Nietzsche, typically because left wing radicals despise virtues that aren't reducible to the collective.

                Even in his own life, he was a sex addict, an anti-nationalist and philosemite.

                The first accusation is a literal smear originating with Wagner. Nietzsche took issue with the nationalism of his day and anti-semitism because he recognised in them a certain baseless resentment and vain collectivism as all too common traits. You should keep in mind that early German nationalism was strongly anti-aristocratic, bourgeois and of a very plebeian character. Its attempts to appropriate many of the higher traits of German civilisation for the sake of the prestige of upstart social strata was something very unpalatable to Nietzsche.

                And I'm sure you can say his views had more depth than I seem to be implying, but it shows how unstable and manipulatable the philosophy is.

                Nietzsche's philosophy does have some very ambiguous elements, which is why I would not recommend it as it is. The Traditionalists have written criticisms of it where they are appropriate. Evola even wrote a practical synthesis for it in his book "Ride the Tiger".

                It depends if it fits one role. A person who is physically weak and cowardly by nature shouldn't try to heroically sacrifice himself on the frontlines of battle. But he could find more personal happiness and use to society as an intellectual or artist. I do not believe that a man must sacrifice everything to the state by obligation, even if it is a prominent element of his life.

                Many of the ancient Hellenic intellectuals would disagree with you and they are the first models we have for intellectualism. As to the concept of sacrifice - its meaning increases in value proportionally to the value of whatever is being sacrificed. Many of the participants in the crusades, for example, sacrificed not only their lives, but also their belongings, lands and status in order to fight for what they perceived to be a higher cause far beyond any merely material or personal concern.

                Primarily in relation to truth.

                If you are a moral subjectivist, then you are already in agreement with the liberals on this question. Your only disagreements seems to be your interpretation of the circumstances in which the principle is to be applied, in which case the inability to reach a consensus on the matter must inevitably lead to an "agree to disagree" type of situation, since both sides presumably trust their own intellectual faculties.

                I think it is a bit defeatist to say that just because understanding happiness failed once, it is an impossible endeavor, much like how people say intelligence is just too infinitely complex to understand.

                It's not so much that it is impossible to enforce this model on society - it's certainly possible, the world we live in today is proof of that. It's just repulsive and disgusting.

                And I also don't believe in a hard rejection of modernity - material wealth is correlated with happiness, people are very interested in new, more encompassing forums of leisure.

                Is material wealth correlated with "happiness", whatever that means, with whatever importance can be assigned to it? Last I checked the main correlation between economic development seemed to be with depression and suicide rates, rather than "happiness". The rest of what you said falls under the label of decadence and is what happens when a civilisation is so depleted and spiritually dead that it can't conceive of anything better to do than numb itself with petty entertainment while its fate slowly slips from its grasp.

                My suggestion is to keep these in order with a greater purpose and a non-all-encompassing Will to Power to counteract the sense of depression that is contradictory co-morbid.

                I don't understand what you're saying here.

                By placing Will to Power as above all of those, leading to the various cruelties, nonsense, and lack of direction elaborated earlier.

                The Will to Power doesn't lead to any cruelties, nonsense or lack of direction. Moreover, placing the Will to Power above those things does not mean they are "denied" - it means they have subordinate value to something else, which is a different thing entirely.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                  [–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  More so among the critical/existential side (Adorno, Sartre, Foucault) and the libertarian (LeVay, Rand). But just a quick search on Reddit shows they're at least willing to entertain him. Heck, even libs I've chatted in real life are immediate to point out how "misinterpreted" he was.

                  I doubt those libs actually understand him, then. Anyway, Nietzsche did have an impact on the more academic side of leftism, but they only took up his criticisms of morality - they entirely rejected his attempts at constructive work designed to replace that morality. Worse, they didn't even follow through until the end with Nietzsche's criticisms - they only agree with Nietzsche's criticism of morality to the extent that they can impose their own, rather than go beyond good and evil.

                  Considering how high a pedestal he put sexuality on, I see no contradiction with him and horndogism

                  What are you referring to here?

                  And accusations of "baseless resentment and vain collectivism" is the battle cry of every 140 IQ shitlib intellectual

                  The unspoken qualitative difference here is the criteria for the dismissal - the shitlib intellectual wants to enforce a utilitarian utopia where the GDP line always goes up, whereas Nietzsche wants every worthy individual to live up to his greatest potential and build civilisation alongside others like him, undisturbed by any appeals from below.

                  The member of the herd has a far more accurate view of the world than the one who tries to rise out of it.

                  To a large extent, this is a very reasonable argument today. Still, the issue remains that the herd by definition does not govern. It is herded by a shepherd. The values of the shepherd determine the condition of the herd.

                  Bravery is good. Being something you are not is not good.

                  The ancient Hellenes would likely question your capacity to engage in any form of higher activity if you shy away from warfare. Typically, the free man in Classical civilisation had one main duty to the state and that was to fight for it. Only the unfree peoples were barred from serving in the army. A heroic disposition was considered a prerequisite for "life" in the proper sense of the word.

                  Dying for a purposeless cause is not good. How many brave men have sacrificed all they had so GloboHomo can survive for one more day? Which is not to countersignal heroism, but disordered heroism. I'd rather have every single crusader's glory taken away than have whites give away the holy city to God's TRUE chosen people.

                  What qualifies as "purposeless cause" depends on how far you want to push nihilism. Certainly, it makes no sense to fight for something contrary to your interests, but glory wasn't the main benefit heroes derive from heroic activities. The real benefit of heroism is the challenge, because it brings out an inner strength and self-possession that draws out the best in man. Considered in the right way, this is also what the Will to Power aims at.

                  In addition to the nonsense listed above (enemies are your best friends, eternal return, trans Nietzscheans, etc) - why would a true Ubermensch have issue with cruelties if it made the strong stronger? What is the Nietzscheanism critique of a Jeffery Epstein, who raped the children of the weak as he accrued billions of dollars, unlimited taboo sex, glory for his country, and eugenic plans in the making? Nietzscheanism is the worst of both worlds - outwardly hostile and amoral, inwardly cowardly and impotent. Moral zeal based on truth and virtue seem to be more impassioning and consistent to me.

                  The original German phrasing of "Will to Power" refers to power in the abstract sense, not to physical or in some other sense practical power. Being physically strong or having power and influence does not give a man the "will to power", much less make him an Overman. With that said, one of the aforementioned Traditionalist critiques of Nietzsche was precisely that he was too generous with his philosophy - not all people have a noble nature that can be affirmed to the maximum, some people have a decadent, weak and dishonourable nature. To those people, the self-affirmation that Nietzsche promotes would only lead in an even more negative direction.