all 65 comments

[–]RedItBurn 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Looking at Iraq, I'd say the US is the one losing that war at the moment. And of course Russia isn't even there.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Looking at Iraq, I'd say the US is the one losing that war at the moment.

I think you misunderstand American foreign policy. US policy is to be in a state of almost continual low-level warfare, as a way of justifying a continual flow of billions of dollars of tax payer money to the military-industrial complex (which includes many members of Congress). They can't justify continual warfare if they are competent enough to win.

And then there is the Ledeen Doctrine:

“Every ten years of so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business."

[–]RedItBurn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I understand that quite well.

The only difference is the people in charge at the moment are so incompetent that rather than pick on tiny little countries, they've decided to fight both of the other two major super-powers at the same time. If the trend continues, I think a lot of people in the US vastly under-estimate the ability of the world to hit-back.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]passionflounder 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Jesus is stuck in traffic.

    [–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (56 children)

    He misspeaks a bit.

    Not as much as W Bush.

    But he is also old. At least relax in the knowledge that he's much better than Trump. He's not committing crimes. He's not selling military secrets to the Saudis. He's not pardoning his friends and colleagues. He's not obstructing justice.

    He's not giving his children roles in the government and security clearances they shouldn't have. He's not giving Russia polling data so that they can target their election interference well. He's not spending his days playing golf and watching TV. He's not surrounding himself with people violating the hatch act. He's not tearing up agreements that keep Iran from producing nuclear weapons, nor ones that prevent China from dominating trade in the pacific. (Although the fallout from those is difficult to fix).

    Adequate is not only the enemy of perfect. Remember that it is also the enemy of evil.

    [–]bootylicious 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Yep - Biden also has a stuttering problem he's worked on for years, a medical reason for the occasional odd comment.

    Sorry, Phooey, if this was one of your proudest posts.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Biden also has a stuttering problem

    Saying "Iraq" for "Ukraine" is not a stutter.

    [–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    No, that's a misspeak. He does it a bit. But less that George W did.

    [–]twolanterns 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    you should wait for bidens crimes to be finally exposed after the huge coverup

    selling his office taking bribes is treason

    it will be more than biden going down for it

    [–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    you should wait for bidens crimes to be finally exposed after the huge coverup

    Oh come on. The DOJ has gone ridiculously light and slowly on Trump, and the best you can come up with is "I bet Biden has done some crimes too, but no one knows what they are yet"?

    selling his office taking bribes is treason

    Do tell.

    [–]twolanterns 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    ridiculously light and slowly on Trump

    compared to what

    swat team invades his house for whats a civil matter over procedure and for some purposely misinterpretted laws (ignoring the whole contrived and faked russia collusion shit that went on invasively for years ...)

    meanwhile serious bribery changes against biden go nowhere clocked for years

    WE ALL SHOUT "Oh come on"

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

    But he is also old.

    He's only 3 years older than Trump, and younger than my dad. Its not the age, its the senility.

    He's not committing crimes.

    He's not being investigated for crimes. There's a big difference.

    He's not tearing up agreements that keep Iran from producing nuclear weapons

    Instead he's trying to fight an unwinnable proxy war using a bunch of corrupt Nazis and incompetent EU vassals against Russia, threatening to escalate it to a new Cold War or even a nuclear hot war, while at the same time trying to provoke a war with China.

    And when even Antony Blinken managed a rare moment of diplomacy, one day later Biden blew it.

    All while the US is committing slow economic suicide.

    The US is a dysfunctional rogue state, run by incompetents, where the security apparatus openly interferes in elections. The only reason that Russia and China is even a little bit polite to the US any more is that its always better to avoid confronting a delusional madman armed with nukes.

    [–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

    He's only 3 years older than Trump

    Also not a bastion of acumen nor eloquence in oratory.

    He's not being investigated for crimes. There's a big difference.

    There is a difference, but you're wrong. Trump is getting a huge free reign because the DOJ doesn't want to be seen as partisan. And there seems to have been someone high up protecting him personally. With the blatantly corrupt justice cannon overseeing his espionage crimes he may well walk on those, despite the clear evidence from tapes that have been uncovered by Jack Smith. But Trump also tried to get Georgia to change the vote count in his favor, and he's on tape for that too. And thats not all his election fraud. He's also behind the fake elector scheme.

    Biden was investigated promptly for his classified documents. The thing is he didn't commit a crime.

    Instead he's trying to fight an unwinnable proxy war using a bunch of corrupt Nazis and incompetent EU vassals against Russia

    They're not Nazis. They have a jewish president. Who won with a huge majority of nearly three quarters.

    It's not unwinnable. There was an insurrection that rocked Putin's entire power base.

    while at the same time trying to provoke a war with China.

    "Trying to provoke"? You might want to elaborate on that. And while you're at it, describe how best you would manage china's expansionism and the fishing fleet depleting the world's ocean's resources including in marine reserves, such as the galapagos?

    All while the US is committing slow economic suicide.

    How?

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

    Also not a bastion of acumen nor eloquence in oratory.

    You're kidding, right? Trump knows how to push all the right buttons to get people following him. He might not be a smart man, but he has low cunning and charisma. If there is anything he knows what to do, its to talk bullshit.

    Biden was investigated promptly for his classified documents. The thing is he didn't commit a crime.

    I'm not talking about Biden's classified documents. It is legally impossible under both American law and common practice for a president or ex-president to mishandle classified documents. The precedence for this was well established under Bush and Clinton, if not going even further back, and then established in law by Obama's executive order 13526.

    The president doesn't have to do anything to declassify documents. He doesn't have to ask permission, or fill out a form, or even say the magic words "this is now declassified" in front of witnesses. All he has to do is act as if they were declassified, and that's what they are. The DOJ know this. This is them running interference for the 2024 election.

    They're not Nazis.

    Nazis, Banderites, what's the difference? They use the same symbols, they follow the same philosophy of white supremacy, they commit violence against minorities.

    Until the very end of 2021, everyone agreed that Ukraine had a massive problem with the extreme far right and that they were glorifying people who committed genocide during WW2. Fortunately, we have the New York Times around to carefully explain that while it is true that many Ukrainians wear Nazi symbols, and dress like Nazis, and express Nazi views, and act like Nazis, and celebrate Nazis, it's okay because they're not really Nazis. Thank goodness we have the NYT to set us right.

    The Christchurch mass shooter Brenton Tarrant had links to Azov and other eastern European far-right groups. Every level of government from city councils to the national government itself does deals with the paramilitary groups, or turns a blind eye to them. His birthday is a national holiday. The Ukrainian military openly displays Nazi iconography.

    Roman Shukhevych, an even more murderous Ukrainian Nazi who was responsible for the massacre of around 100,000 Poles, has a train station and a stadium named for him (over the protests of Poland).

    Ukraine's Nazi problem used to be a bipartisan issue. Facebook used to classify Azov as a Nazi hate group for wanting to wage a race war. Now they're heroes to the sorts of people who talk about "bash the fash" and "Nazi punching".

    They have a jewish president. Who won with a huge majority of nearly three quarters.

    And by 2021 his popularity was just 19% after a complete failure to deliver his promises. This is probably why he decided to abandon even the pretence of keeping the Minsk II accords, and launch a full blown military invasion of the breakaway republics of Donetsk and Luhansk right under the nose of the Russian army on the border. There's nothing like a war to boost your popularity.

    I feel sorry for Zelensky. He ran on a very popular platform of ending the civil war, but the moment he tried to rein in the Nazis they threatened to murder him and he instantly folded like a piece of paper. He's spent the time since then with his snout in the trough getting richer and allowing, if not supporting, the far-right to continue their war against east Ukraine.

    He's done nothing but a short-lived, half-hearted attempt to control the far-right groups.

    Well maybe I don't feel that sorry for the corrupt coward.

    It's not unwinnable.

    It would take not just one but a whole series of miracles for Ukraine even to fight to an honourable draw.

    Ukraine has run out of money and are reliant on loans from the west. Even if the war stops today, they have lost: their ass now belongs to the US. They will never pay back what they owe. They are begging the west to send them arms which the west has run out of too: Ukraine is fighting on the smell of an oily rag. During the Bakhmut slaughter, surviving Ukrainian troops reported that they were limited to just a handful of mortar shells a day while the Russians could fire literally hundreds of shells back.

    They've run out of trained troops, and are so desperate that they're no longer just using press-gangs to kidnap people off the street in ethnic-Russian oblasts but have started conscripting actual West Ukrainians as well. Their NCO class has been especially hard-hit.

    Russia has air superiority. Even if the west sends Ukraine F-16s, they have no pilots and nowhere to take them off from in Ukraine. They will have to use either NATO pilots, or their own pilots with an extremely accelerated training course (weeks rather than months). Either way, the only place they can take off from will be behind NATO lines (probably in Poland), which gives Russia a long time to intercept them before they reach the front lines.

    Every one of the "game changer" weapons have been a total failure. Britain won't allow them to use Challenger tanks in the front lines where they can be destroyed and captured by the Russians like the Leopard were: the Challengers are sitting quietly in the rear, doing nothing. The US won't send Abrams for months, if at all, and if they do send some, they will be the second-class model without the DU armour.

    Ukraine's counter-attack in the south has been a slaughter for them, they have lost a huge number of men and matériel for negligible gains. Far from breaking the Russian forces in two, they have "paused" the counter-attack after capturing a handful of villages without even reaching the Russian first level defensive lines.

    There was an insurrection that rocked Putin's entire power base.

    Oh are you still getting your fake news from Bizarro World?

    No Russian government officials supported Progozhin. No regional governors supported him. Both the Chechen forces and the Moscow National Guard prepared to fight him. No military officers supported Progozhin, and no military units deserted or joined him. Russia's overseas friends supported Putin -- Uganda offered to send troops to defend Moscow, which I'm sure Putin got a laugh out of before sending his thanks.

    Only a small minority of Wagner's troops took part on the drive to Moscow, and before they got to Moscow smarter heads prevailed: how could they fight the Russian government when all their arms and ammunition is supplied by the Russian MoD? Most of Wagner is going to either sign with the MoD and become regular Russian soldiers, or end up in semi-exile in Belarus until Putin decides what to do with them. No charges laid or not, Progozhin better stand far away from any windows.

    Putin's popularity has gone up. People in Russia appreciate that he controlled the insurrection without having to slaughter the Wagner fighters.

    And most importantly of all, Ukraine was completely unable to capitalise on Progozhin's aborted insurrection. It was a minor crisis handled well, not a disaster.

    [–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

    You're kidding, right? Trump knows how to push all the right buttons to get people following him.

    "I know words. I have the best words." - literal Trump quote. He's claiming to have superpowers of vocabulary but not managing to treat his audience to a word of two syllables.

    I'm not kidding.

    It is legally impossible under both American law and common practice for a president or ex-president to mishandle classified documents.

    You're very wrong about that. Although i note that the charges bright to date are about defence information, not classified documents.

    But under American law, the same law applies to presidents and ex presidents as crackwhores and ex crackwhores. It's called the rule of law, and it's the basis of the American democracy.

    And by 2021 his popularity was just 19% after a complete failure to deliver his promises.

    They're not NAZIs. Failure to deliver promises isn't being a jew. They knew he was Jewish when he was viewed into power in a landslide.

    Ukraine has run out of money and are reliant on loans from the west.

    The invasion of Ukraine is an invasion of europe.

    Sweden and Finland are joining NATO to help hold the line in Ukraine.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/natos-new-north-fresh-chances-contain-moscow-2023-07-03/

    The west isn't going to let Ukraine fall.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

    They're not NAZIs.

    If you are slicing extremist far right white supremacists that finely, then I suppose I will have to admit that only some of the Ukrainian far right are genuine neo-Nazis Hitlerites. The rest are merely "Nazi-adjacent" Banderites and other white supremacist extremists who have some minor differences with Hitlerite Nazis. If I was writing an academic political science paper I'd care more about the differences, but this is social media. If you give the Nazi salute and have a swastika tattoo then you're a Nazi even if your political position only agrees 95% with Hitler's.

    They knew he was Jewish when he was viewed into power in a landslide.

    Who? Zelensky? I never said he was a Nazi. He's just a venal, corrupt, cowardly crack head caught up in events too big for him. He's a media-friendly puppet and his Jewishness is pure whitewashing.

    It's not Zelensky that's the problem. Its not even the average Ukrainian voter.

    Its people like Andriy Biletsky, founder of Azov. Biletsky stated in 2010 that the Ukrainian nation's mission is to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade...against Semite-led Untermenschen". He managed to get 33% of the vote when running as an independent, enough to get elected. (Hitler's Nazi Party managed to get about 33% of the vote too. Just saying.) But most far-right political parties don't do quite so well in elections. The average Ukrainian bod on the street is no more likely to be a Nazi than anywhere else.

    Nazis exist in every country. Like the USA, and, yes, Russia, there are plenty of far-right extremists in Ukrainian law enforcement and the military, but where Russia actively bans fascist and Nazi groups, and the US turns a blind eye to them so long as they pay their taxes and aren't too vocal in their threats to overthrow the government, Ukraine supports and encourages them.

    Oligarchs use the skin-head gangs and "volunteer battalions" (private militias) to settle scores with competitors. Town governments pay extremists like Right Sector to remove "undesirables" like Gypsies (Roma) from their towns. Azov is now officially integrated with the Ukrainian armed forces, but during the early stages of the civil war with Donbas, it was a private militia and recognised all the world over as a far-right neo-Nazi extremist group.

    Azov are not even close to the worst. Right Sector and Svoboda are much worse. And they're still active.

    Sweden and Finland are joining NATO to help hold the line in Ukraine.

    Sweden and Finland are joining NATO because their governments are controlled by Russophobic neoliberal globalists.

    In practical terms, this makes next to zero difference to Russia. Both Sweden and Finland already had full political and military cooperation with NATO, and mutual defence agreements with the EU and NATO, and a high degree of collaboration when it comes to tactics, training and weaponry. Since 1991, Sweden and Finland have become deeply integrated with NATO despite remaining outside of the formal NATO alliance. If Russia is worried about that, the ship has sailed long ago and they have had plenty of time to get used to the new world order that Sweden and Finland are part of the US-lead coalition of Russophobes in Europe.

    For Finland and Sweden, "the greatest change with NATO membership will be with regard to identity and strategic culture". They will lose their identity and their strategic culture will become even more of a vassal of the USA.

    By the way: Article 5 does not say what people think it says. Quote: "Article 5 does not lead inexorably to full-scale war; it offers a framework for developing a measured response, with each country deciding what action to take." There is no obligation for any NATO country to go to war.

    The bottom line here is that the western media is pushing this ludicrous idea that the threat of Finnish and Swedish membership of NATO concerns Russia, but in practical terms that ship sailed a decade ago or more. Finland and Sweden have been closely integrated with NATO for many years.

    The west isn't going to let Ukraine fall.

    Ukraine fell to a hostile coup in 2014.

    And the west is not capable of preventing Russia from taking back the ethnic Russian areas of Ukraine and leaving western Ukraine as a neutral shell.

    [–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

    Ukraine voted in a jew with a landslide.

    Very few of them are anti-Semitic.

    Ergo very few are nazis.

    Azov was formed during the Euromaidan protests. Russia was already trying to set up Ukraine as a puppet state like Belarus.

    They had some neo nazi influences, but being invaded brings out people's most base patterns of behaviour as you see your friends and family killed.

    But they're divorced from that since they've been absorbed into the national guard, and Neo Nazi was never a particularly significant moment in ukraine by numbers.

    Ukraine fell to a hostile coup in 2014.

    Parts of Ukraine are currently occupied by Putin's Russia. The liberation is ongoing.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

    More than 50% of eligible voters either voted against Zelensky, or didn't vote for him. Even in the second round run-off election, Zelensky only received 45% of potential votes. Some landslide.

    • When given a wide choice of 39 candidates, just 30% of voters supported Zelensky; if you include those who were eligible to vote but didn't, it was only 19% of the eligible voting population who preferred him: 81% of voters preferred somebody else.
    • In the second round of voting, when asked to choose between only incumbent president Petro Poroshenko and Zelensky, 73% choose Zelensky; if you include those who chose to stay away and not vote at all, that was only 45% of eligible voters.
    • And a year later, his popularity had plummeted to just 10% approval rating as the Ukrainian people discovered that Zelensky was even more corrupt than the crooks he replaced, and was completely incapable of either bringing the far-right under control or ending the civil war.

    Quote: "With no previous political experience, Mr Zelensky's campaign focused on his difference to the other candidates rather than on any concrete policy ideas. ... Analysts believe Mr Zelensky's informal style and vow to clean up Ukrainian politics resonated with voters who are disillusioned with the country's path under Mr Poroshenko." Kinda like Trump, don't you think?

    So to summarise: Zelensky, a professional actor who was very popular, managed to fool 19% of eligible voters in the first round of the election, which was enough to get into the second round. Poroshenko, already widely disliked, lost the election to somebody even more dirty and corrupt who could put on a better false face.

    Ergo very few are nazis.

    You're probably right. If I was to take a wildly unscientific stab in the dark, my guess is that probably only about 2% of Ukrainians are hard-core far right extremists, and only a fraction of those are specifically obsessed with THE JOOS like Hitler was. And? What's your point? 2% of 44 million is a lot of people.

    Nazism is more than just antisemitism, and its not solely the true believer extremists that are the problem. Its the thousands more of more moderate right-wing fellow travellers who are associated with them, and the millions of easily-lead followers who go along with the true believers out of patriotism, or fear, or greed, or because they're just following orders. Even in Nazi Germany, most Nazis were not raging antisemites who wanted to exterminate all the jews -- not at first. Even Hitler himself originally planned to just expel the Jews from Europe.

    There is little or no chance that the extreme right will take power in Ukraine through democratic and fair elections but that's not how the extreme right takes power. The far right never takes over by convincing 51% of the voters to support death camps.

    They take power by challenging the state's monopoly on violence, and gaining support and protection from fellow-travellers and sympathisers in positions of power. In 1920s Italy, the government and the king caved to threats from Mussolini's fascist minority and gave him power. In 1930s Germany, the establishment political elite made Hitler Chancellor thinking that they could control him like a puppet, that he would do their dirty work for them and allow them to keep their hands clean.

    In Ukraine, far right paramilitary operates with impunity, often with the open support of police and military. They are funded and supported by wealthy oligarchs. Far right terror attacks and even murders are rarely investigated and even more rarely prosecuted. Nobody has been charged for the Maidan murders, or the burning alive of protesters in Odessa, or the attacks against Gypsies.

    Azov was so powerful that the Ukrainian government simply integrated them with their military, without making any attempt to weed out the extremists.

    Ukraine is officially unapologetic for the murder of tens of thousands of Poles, Hungarians and Ukrainian Jews at the hands of the Banderites during WW2. Even during this war, with Russophobic Poland champing at the bit to fight Russia, there is a certain amount of diplomatic tension between Ukraine and Poland every time the Ukrainians name another street or public arena after a genocidal murderer or celebrate their birthday as a national holiday. Until 2022, all of Ukraine's neighbours agreed that Ukraine has a deep seated problem with neo-Nazis. Until 2022, there was bipartisan recognition in the USA that Ukrainian neo-Nazis were a problem. Obama refused to send them weapons for that reason.

    Now the narrative is "bUT tHEy'Ve ChANgEd thEIr WayS aND aREn't NazIS AnYMoRE!" even as they zeig heil on camera.

    Azov was formed during the Euromaidan protests.

    No, Azov officially was formed after the Euromaiden protests.

    Azov Battalion's official creation by Andriy Biletsky was in May 2014. The Euromaiden protests ran from 21 November 2013 to 22 February 2014, so Azov didn't form until three months after the Euromaiden protests and the violent insurrection that removed democratically elected President Viktor Yanukovych from power.

    Russia was already trying to set up Ukraine as a puppet state

    Nonsense on stilts. That's pure American propaganda and not based on any reality at all. In 2014 Russia was still satisfied for Ukraine to remain politically and militarily neutral and Yanukovych frequently went against Russian interests to move Ukraine economically closer to the EU.

    And the irony is that after the so-called "Revolution of Dignity" coup, it was the Americans (specifically that poisonous toad Victoria Nuland) who choose the senior Ukrainian government ministers, from people who didn't even have Ukrainian citizenship at the time and had to quickly apply for citizenship to make their new position legal. And you think that it was Russia who was turning Ukraine into a puppet state??? 🙄

    like Belarus.

    Belarus has more independence from Russia, despite their infinitely closer cultural and ethnic ties, than Germany or the UK has from the USA.

    • Russia and Belarus have partial economic integration? "BeLArUs iS A pUPPeT sTaTE!"
    • Western European have much stronger and more complete economic, legal and taxation integration? "That just makes good economic sense."
    • Russia and Belarus have partial military integration? "BeLArUs iS A pUPPeT sTaTE!"
    • Most of Europe has a much stronger and more complete military integration, dominated by the USA? "That just makes good military sense."
    • Russia has two military bases in Belarus? "BeLArUs iS A pUPPeT sTaTE!"
    • The US has at least four military bases in Australia, plus free access to at least six other ADF bases? "That's for the protection of Australia."
    • The US has forty military bases in Germany? "That's for the protection of Germany."
    • The US has eight military bases in Italy? "That's for the protection of Italy."
    • The US has six military bases in the UK? "That's for the protection of the UK."
    • The US has another 700 military bases in at least 80 countries? "That's for their protection."

    Everything that the US claims Russia does, is what the US actually does.

    [–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

    More than 50% of eligible voters either voted against Zelensky, or didn't vote for him. Even in the second round run-off election, Zelensky only received 45% of potential votes. Some landslide.

    You're counting people who didn't vote?

    Meaning you think that when Trump won in 2016, he only had the support of 27% of the country?

    When given a wide choice of 39 candidates, just 30% of voters supported Zelensky;

    More than 11 times the average of those 39 candidates?

    And about twice as many votes as the second highest polling candidate?

    Most people would call that reasonably decisive. I reckon "Landslide" is fair.

    In the second round of voting, when asked to choose between only incumbent president Petro Poroshenko and Zelensky, 73% choose Zelensky;

    Improving his margin to about 2.7 times Poroshenko's vote. Again, not close.

    And a year later, his popularity had plummeted to just 10% approval

    I get 11% "strongly approval". But you're missing the 38% "somewhat approve". For a total of 49% approval. From this source. Where do you get the 10% from?

    Even so, the 73% support in the final round refutes your claim that Ukrainians are Nazis.

    Nazism is more than just antisemitism

    Agree. antisemitism is a necessary but not sufficient condition. You also need to be fascist, racist, white supremacist, support eugenics and dictatorship.

    Belarus has more independence from Russia, despite their infinitely closer cultural and ethnic ties, than Germany or the UK has from the USA.

    Belarus has a Russian puppet government, that retains power through "elections" that are neither free nor fair, and subvert the will of the people. https://www.voiceofbelarus.org/belarus-news/golos-proved-that-tsikhanouskaya-had-defeated-lukashenko-in-the-first-round/

    Nonsense on stilts. That's pure American propaganda and not based on any reality at all.

    Nope. Russian oligarchs tried to seize power to stop Ukraine moving towards the EU wrt trade.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/1vhgp5/yesterday_my_country_became_north_korea_20/

    And during the protests, Russians were disappearing protesters to try to cool them. https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/where-have-the-many-missing-ukrainian-protesters-gone/

    It didn't work, so Putin outright invaded. That's not working either. He's lost support of the Wagner mercenaries, and nearly lost his government. More nearly than Zelensky has to date.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    You're counting people who didn't vote?

    Meaning you think that when Trump won in 2016, he only had the support of 27% of the country?

    Absolutely.

    In Australia we consider a voter turnout of less than 90% a threat to democracy.

    When AOC won her seat in Congress, she did so with the votes of 12% of the eligible voters. Low voter turnout is bad for democracy, it encourages extremists and posers and government for and by special interests (usually the wealthy elite and corporations, but not only them).

    More than 11 times the average of those 39 candidates?

    And about twice as many votes as the second highest polling candidate?

    Yes.

    The question isn't whether or not he was the most popular candidate at the time. The question is what that tells us about the influence of far-right neo-Nazis (or Banderites, or "alt-right", or whatever you want to call them) in Ukrainian government. And the answer is, precious little.

    You seem to be arguing against somebody else's argument that "Poroshenko is literally Hitler, and Jews were prohibited from holding office and even if they weren't nobody would vote for them". If that were my argument, then Zelensky's election victory would be good evidence against my argument -- but that is not my argument.

    I don't know how often I have to say this before you will take it in. The problem isn't that all Ukrainians, or even a majority, are Nazis. Or that the Ukrainian government is openly and officially Nazi. It is that there are significant numbers of neo-Nazis, Banderites and other Hitlerite-adjacent extremists in the country, many of them are organised into paramilitary organisations, some are openly part of the government and military, and that they have the support and protection of oligarchs, officials, and organs of the state such as the military, the judiciary, the police and other government agencies.

    Before 2022 none of this was controversial. Everyone agreed that Ukraine was home to many powerful far-right groups. Israel and Poland especially were, and remain, upset that Ukraine continues to celebrate genocidal war criminals like Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych. In the US, it was a matter of bipartisan agreement that Ukraine has a Nazi problem. It was why Obama limited aid to Ukraine to non-lethal equipment, due to fears that weapons would end up in the hands of extremists.

    Where do you get the 10% from?

    I misremembered this source that states his approval was 19%. Sorry.

    Nazism is more than just antisemitism

    Agree. antisemitism is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

    Political parties change over time to suit local conditions and the personalities of their leaders, none of whom live forever. Consider how the Republicans of Lincoln differ from the Republicans of Trump, or the neo-con Republicans of Bush Jr. Or the Dixie Democrats who crossed over to become Republicans.

    The German Nazi Party of the 1920s through 40s was especially influenced by the malign and unhinged racial views of Hitler, Himmler and a handful of other top leaders. Hitler took the regular anti-semitic views of many Germans in the 1920s and turned it up to 11. But that doesn't mean that all neo-Nazis who follow have to be equally obsessed with Jews beyond all else, or even that all antisemites are Nazis. Local conditions matter.

    People forget that while Hitler attempted genocide against the Jews, killing six million of them, he also attempted genocide against the Slavs and killed around 8 or 9 million civilians and POWs, mostly Russians. You know who aren't Slavs? Western Ukrainians.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

    Belarus has a Russian puppet government

    So you say, but you give no evidence for your claim that Belarus and Lukashenko exist only to do Russia's bidding.

    There is a spectrum from puppet government (one which is independent only in name), to vassal state (one which still retains some independence, but only within limits), to allies linked by shared culture and interests.

    Americans in particular seem to have trouble believing that any two countries can be on friendly terms unless one of them is the master and the other at least a junior staff, if not outright slave. Probably because that's how they behave so they think everyone else must too.

    If you want to demonstrate that Belarus is a puppet state of Russia, you need to prove that they actually have no real independence at all, not just that they are friendly, collaborate, and have each other's backs.

    that retains power through "elections" that are neither free nor fair

    If you expect me to defend Lukashenko as a paragon of democracy, I'm going to disappoint.

    But having said that, you're linking to Voice Of Belarus as your source? Okay.

    VOB is aimed at American audiences not the local people of Belarus. That's why its in English. Their funding is obscure, which suggests that most of their money comes from the National Endowment for Democracy or even the CIA. Even if it doesn't, they're still parroting the CIA line: Lukashenko bad, Tsikhanouskaya good, Belarus needs a colour revolution to bring them into the US sphere of influence.

    Tsikhanouskaya is astonishingly unpopular in Belarus even among the pro-Western, anti-Lukashenko crowd. The method used by VOB to cough "prove" cough she won is laughably bad. It might as well have been a Twitter poll.

    And then you go on to use an anonymous Reddit user -- a deleted user at that -- as your source that "Russian oligarchs tried to seize power". A few problems with that:

    • This random Redditor describes genocidal mass murderers Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych as "freedom fighters"
    • and supports open discrimination against 25% of the country on the basis of ethnicity
    • but most of all, he doesn't mention Russian oligarchs even once.

    He's lost support of the Wagner mercenaries, and nearly lost his government.

    Its hard to take you seriously when you fall for such cartoon takes. You're believing the same clowns who claimed that Putin had fled the country and that this silly little drive to Moscow by an egotistical billionaire caterer ex-con was the start of a new Russian Revolution. You need to get a better source of information than the mainstream US press, which always tells the truth when absolutely no other alternative, including dead silence, presents itself.

    Only a tiny fraction of Wagner were active participants of this aborted march on Moscow. Most of the rest are signing up with the Russian military. I'll admit I have no idea of what's happening with Progozhin or why he hasn't fallen out of a window yet, but his home has been raided and his companies have lost all their MoD contracts. (Mind you, the contracts were already under investigation for financial fraud before the march occurred.)

    No Russian government officials supported Progozhin. No regional governors supported him. No military officers supported Progozhin, and no military units deserted or joined him. There was no popular support for his aborted drive on Moscow, and Putin's popularity has gone up, not down, for taking a fucked up situation and unfucking it quickly, decisively and without having to slaughter the heroes of Bakhmod.

    Even if you hate Putin for personally raping your dog and shooting your wife and kids, you have to admit that he called Progozhin's bluff masterfully.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

    Ukraine voted in a jew with a landslide.

    Very few of them are anti-Semitic.

    Zelensky received 13.5 million votes in the second round of the 2019 presidential election, out of about 36 million adults in the country. All you have proved is that around 38% of Ukrainians are either not antisemites, or hated Petro Poroshenko enough to vote for a jew. You can't say anything about the 26 million adults who didn't vote for Zelensky. How many of them are antisemites?

    [–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    You can't say anything about the 26 million adults who didn't vote for Zelensky.

    I can say that the overwhelming support for Zelenskyy amongst those who felt strongly enough to vote demonstrates that there's no broad culture of antisemitism in Ukraine that would support the claim that "Ukrainians are Nazis".

    The people who felt strongly antisemitic, would have voted. If the country tolerated antisemitism, he wouldn't have had a shit-show.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    Your argument in a nutshell: "The election of Barrack Obama proves that there are no racists in the USA -- or at least no broad culture of racism or systematic racism."

    there's no broad culture of antisemitism in Ukraine

    Oh please. Antisemitism is widespread across eastern Europe including Ukraine. Quote:

    Jew-hatred in Ukraine declined from a record 46% index score in 2019 to 29% in 2023, “potentially driven in part by the popularity of the Jewish president, Volodymyr Zelensky, whose approval ratings have risen dramatically over the last few years in response to his defiance in the face of Russian military attacks,” per an ADL release.

    So in 2019, the year of Zelensky's electoral victory, 46% of Ukrainians were described as "Jew-haters" by the ADL.

    In any case, Ukrainian neo-Nazi hatred of Jews is probably a secondary concern to Putin than their hatred of Russians.

    that would support the claim that "Ukrainians are Nazis".

    If I meet anyone who believes that all Ukrainians are Nazis, I'll be sure to mention that Zelensky is a Jew to them.

    By the way: history is more complicated than the cartoon version most people learn. Even the original Nazis were complicated. Around 150,000 of men of Jewish descent, including practicing Jews, fought for Nazi Germany. If Jews could fight for the Nazis, Nazis can vote for a Jewish president.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    He's claiming to have superpowers of vocabulary

    I never said that Trump has the vocabulary of (say) the late Clive James. I said he knows how to push people's buttons. Short, snappy sentences with simple words are best if you want to appeal to the hoi polloi. He won't attract one single extra vote by using sesquipedalian lexemes in place of ordinary language.

    Besides, many intelligent people write short sentences with simple words. Ernest Hemingway sends his greetings. One of the most powerful verses in the bible is two words: "Jesus wept."

    You're very wrong about that.

    Executive order 13526 says I'm not.

    The Espionage Act is frequently and widely abused in the US:

    and "defence information" is meaningless.

    But under American law, the same law applies to presidents and ex presidents as crackwhores and ex crackwhores.

    Indeed. If a crack whore becomes president, executive order 13526 will apply equally to her as it does to Obama, Trump and Biden, and she too will be able to declassify documents on a whim.

    [–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    Short, snappy sentences with simple words are best if you want to appeal to the hoi polloi.

    "China has 1.4 billion people, we have 325 -- probably 325 million approximately -- nobody can give the exact count, we're trying to get an exact count but you have, over the years, many illegals who have come into the country, so it depends on how you want to count it." - Donald Trump being snappy

    Other examples of snappy oratory from Donald Trump:

    • "Possibly it's one of the reasons -- certainly it's one of the very big reasons trade and things related to trade that I got elected in the first place -- I've been talking about it for a long time, along with many other subjects, frankly."

    • "But it's still -- we've done a great job, get no credit for it and I don't want the credit, I want the people that have done this great job -- the people that have done such an incredible job in building the ventilators and doing the testing and building a testing platform that's been amazing."

    Executive order 13526 says I'm not.

    You're very wrong about that too.

    From your link

    1) Classification doesn't expire because an ex president wills it:

    "If the original classification authority cannot determine an earlier specific date or event for declassification, information shall be marked for declassification 10 years from the date of the original decision, unless the original classification authority otherwise determines that the sensitivity of the information requires that it be marked for declassification for up to 25 years from the date of the original decision."

    2) The declassification procedure is detailed. It does not include an ex-president thinking about it.

    The Espionage Act is frequently and widely abused in the US:

    Illegally keeping government information, revision to give it back, and lying about having it will lead to charges under the espionage act.

    If a crack whore becomes president, executive order 13526 will apply equally to her as it does to Obama, Trump and Biden, and she too will be able to declassify documents on a whim.

    Wrong and also irrelevant.

    The declassification procedure detailed in your linked order does not include "on a whim". Moreover Trump is on tape saying that he didn't declassify the documents about the invasion plan of Iran was still classified.

    “It is like, highly confidential,” Trump told those present, “see as president I could have declassified it… Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”

    And the charges bright under the espionage act are USC 18 section 793

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793

    You'll notice that it's about defence information. It doesn't mention the classification status of the information.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Donald Trump being snappy

    Is there something wrong with those sentences? They make sense to me. You probably hear sentences more mangled a dozen times a day and don't even notice. Some of them obviously are following on from a previous sentence and so they don't express a complete thought on their own.

    "Donald Trump is a bad speaker" is a weird hill for you to die on. A bit like "Bill Clinton and JFK were not popular with the ladies." Shall we compare him to Joe Biden or George Bush Jr? Or Dan Quayle?

    I'm reminded of this experiment: what if Clinton and Trump swapped sexes?

    [–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Is there something wrong with those sentences?

    They're not snappy.

    The "snappy" line for explaining why Trump's got the vocabulary of a precocious three year old didn't work.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    And the charges bright under the espionage act are USC 18 section 793

    The espionage act is the weapon the US government uses when the gloves come off and they go full on authoritarian. Is quite ironic that Trump is being hit by it too.

    After spending months attacking Trump for holding onto "Top Secret" documents, the prosecutors presumably realised exactly the point people have been saying all along: the president, and former presidents, are legally empowered to implicitly declassify any documents they like by simply treating them as declassified. This was enshrined in precedence going back to Bush and Clinton and possibly even further back, and then made explicit by Obama. Quote:

    As the Times points out, "prosecutors would not technically need to prove that [the documents at Mar-a-Lago] were still classified because the Espionage Act predates the classification system and does not refer to it as an element."

    Since the original legal theory that Trump had broken the law by holding onto classified documents failed to hold water, the prosecution had to find another excuse to go after him. And the Espionage Act is great for that because it is so easy to abuse. For example:

    Joe Biden just admitted publicly that the US military is all but out of 155mm artillery shells, and that's why they're sending cluster munitions to Ukraine. Many people have attacked him for this, claiming that he's revealed information related to national defence to America's enemies. Which is true, since levels of munitions is related to national defence, and America's enemies have access to the Internet and media where Biden's comment has been widely reported.

    Of course it's a stupid accusation, since everyone already knows that America is out of munitions and cannot ramp up production to levels needed to fight a peer adversary like Russia or China. But regardless of whether it is a stupid claim or not, under the Espionage Act Biden has just committed a crime:

    "Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with ... information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits ... the same to any person not entitled to receive it ..."

    Oops. Maybe Trump and Biden can share the same cell in Guantanamo Bay? 😃

    Of course this assumes that the Justice Department is applying the law equally to everyone. And if you think that, I've got a great NFTs to sell you.

    That's the problem with the Espionage Act: it is so overly broad and sweeping (almost anything could be related to "national defence" under a sufficiently imaginative prosecutor) that it is easy to abuse. And so it has been abused.

    [–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    the president, and former presidents, are legally empowered to implicitly declassify any documents they like by simply treating them as declassified.

    Oh, ex presidents too?

    You think Jimmy Carter can will secret documents into different classifications by thinking about it too?

    That's kind of funny.

    "In my administration, I'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law." - Trump 2016

    “As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” - Trump 2021

    "Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this" - Trump 2021, same recording as above.

    Since the original legal theory that Trump had broken the law by holding onto classified documents failed to hold water, the prosecution had to find another excuse to go after him

    The charges weren't changed. Crimes under the espionage act, and mishandling of NARA documents were the ones on the search warrant.

    And since the video evidence shows Nauta moving boxes out of the store room the day before Trump's attorneys searched the room to comply with the grand jury subpoena for their return, we know that Trump was attempting to conceal that he had documents.

    Biden did nothing of the sort, and you know it.

    [–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Oh, ex presidents too?

    You think Jimmy Carter can will secret documents into different classifications by thinking about it too?

    Carter doesn't have access to secret documents any longer and cannot just walk into the White House to get them.

    But I expect that if it was discovered that he had taken home some documents in 1980, and 43 years later they were discovered in his sock drawer, or a private think-tank they would probably be covered by the same precedent and Executive Order.

    “As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” - Trump 2021

    Oh so now Trump is considered the ultimate authority on the law? 🙄

    Trump hasn't been charged with being wrong, or being inconsistent, or being mistaken about his failure to declassify the documents.

    The charges against him don't even require that the documents be classified. They could be a menu from the White House canteen and the Espionage Act could still apply, provided the prosecutor can come up with a sufficiently imaginative story as how that could effect national security.

    Doesn't even have to be that imaginative: if Putin knows what they are serving in the canteen, he could sneak into the warehouses distributing the food and poison it. Actually most judges don't even require a theory for how something affects national security, they're quite happy to believe the prosecutor when he says "we can't tell you how because it is classified". Kinda like juries that believe cops who repeat the catchphrase "I feared for my life" when they shot somebody in the back as they were lying face down on the street in handcuffs...

    [–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Technically he's right. Russia's attempt to conquer Iraq has failed in every possible way:

    • Area of Iraq occupied by Russia: zero.
    • Number of Iraqi tanks/aircraft/cannon/missile launchers destroyed by Russia: zero.
    • Number of Iraqi soldiers killed by Russia: zero.
    • Number of successful Russian offences against Iraq: zero.
    • Number of successful Russian defences against Iraqi counter-attacks: zero.
    • Number of Iraqi insurgent/terrorist attacks against Russia prevented: zero.

    Russia's war against Iraq has been so ineffective that the only way it could have been any less effective is if they hadn't attacked Iraq at all.

    😉

    [–]Friday_The_13th 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    What a gaff, must've just licked a vanilla chocolate swirl.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]Friday_The_13th 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Fair point, for sure.