Biden says Russia is clearly 'losing the war in IRAQ'

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[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh, ex presidents too?

You think Jimmy Carter can will secret documents into different classifications by thinking about it too?

Carter doesn't have access to secret documents any longer and cannot just walk into the White House to get them.

But I expect that if it was discovered that he had taken home some documents in 1980, and 43 years later they were discovered in his sock drawer, or a private think-tank they would probably be covered by the same precedent and Executive Order.

“As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” - Trump 2021

Oh so now Trump is considered the ultimate authority on the law? 🙄

Trump hasn't been charged with being wrong, or being inconsistent, or being mistaken about his failure to declassify the documents.

The charges against him don't even require that the documents be classified. They could be a menu from the White House canteen and the Espionage Act could still apply, provided the prosecutor can come up with a sufficiently imaginative story as how that could effect national security.

Doesn't even have to be that imaginative: if Putin knows what they are serving in the canteen, he could sneak into the warehouses distributing the food and poison it. Actually most judges don't even require a theory for how something affects national security, they're quite happy to believe the prosecutor when he says "we can't tell you how because it is classified". Kinda like juries that believe cops who repeat the catchphrase "I feared for my life" when they shot somebody in the back as they were lying face down on the street in handcuffs...

[–]ActuallyNot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Carter doesn't have access to secret documents any longer and cannot just walk into the White House to get them.

Oh! Ex-presidents can only change the classification of a document if that document is in their hand?

I didn't see that bit about proximity to the document in any of your links to the law. Can you point out the part where it says that?

Oh so now Trump is considered the ultimate authority on the law? 🙄

Nope.

But it shows that he didn't declassify the document. And it shows that he understands that an ex-president can't.

The first part is important for the trial, because it shows criminal intent.

The charges against him don't even require that the documents be classified.

The ones on the search warrant didn't. But Smith can bring other charges. The photographic evidence in the indictment show that there were crimes being committed with respect to the handling of classified documents.

They could be a menu from the White House canteen and the Espionage Act could still apply, provided the prosecutor can come up with a sufficiently imaginative story as how that could effect national security.

The document that we have in the tape recording was the attack plan for the invasion of Iran.

That's the one that they could release what it was.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh! Ex-presidents can only change the classification of a document if that document is in their hand?

The precedent and executive order imply that a president does not have to do anything special to declassify a document (although of course they can go through normal channels if they so choose). The mere act of treating the document as if it were unclassified by, for example, giving it to aides without clearance, or taking it home, makes it so.

Carter, as a former president, cannot do anything at all with documents he doesn't already possess, so he cannot treat them as unclassified if he doesn't already have them. If he does have them now, it would be because he already declassified them in 1980 when he took them home.

But it shows that he didn't declassify the document. And it shows that he understands that an ex-president can't.

So what's your theory here? That Trump is a paragon of virtue who has never lied or bent the truth, and would never, ever big note himself by pretending to be showing classified documents? That everything he says is 100% accurate and he is incapable of misspeaking or being mistaken about the classification status of a document? That by merely stating that the document is classified, he has reclassified it as secret?

There is no executive order or precedent that ex-presidents can reclassify documents as secret. So it doesn't matter if Trump said the document is secret. He was lying, or mistaken.

But as you say, the Espionage Act doesn't require the document to be secret. If the DoJ wanted to, they could go after somebody for showing a copy of the New York Times to a journalist on the theory that the NY Times contains information that could be useful to America's enemies. The Espionage Act does not require the information be secret, or classified, or define a threshold of "militarily useful", and the mere fact that it is common knowledge is no defence.

And if the defendant was Donald Trump, after six years of unrelenting propaganda that Trump is a Russian agent, you could easily find tens of thousands of jury members who would willingly convict him.

The document that we have in the tape recording was the attack plan for the invasion of Iran.

That's impossible. Only Russia invades other countries. They must have been plans to deliver freedom to Iran.

[–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The precedent and executive order imply that a president does not have to do anything special to declassify a document

Does it now? Declassification and downgrading is part three of the executive order isn't it?

The mere act of treating the document as if it were unclassified by, for example, giving it to aides without clearance, or taking it home, makes it so.

Would this come under section 3.3 Automatic declassification?

So what's your theory here?

Trump took and kept from NARA documents that were classified. Moreover he knew they were classified, and that they hadn't been declassified. So we have him committing the crime, but we also have criminal intent.

That by merely stating that the document is classified, he has reclassified it as secret?

The claim that he can declassify things with his mind has no basis in law. Important for the criminal trial is that he knew that. Because as with most crimes, you can't be guilty if you didn't intend to commit a crime.

But as you say, the Espionage Act doesn't require the document to be secret.

Yes. The search warrant and indictment were focused carefully to avoid issues with potentially violent Trump supporters influenced by the stuff Trump was spouting on truth social.

He's been charges are under the laws Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information, Tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant, Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy, Fraud and false statements: Statements or entries generally.

And it notes 18 U.S. Code § 2 - Principals, which means he's getting charged with actions of his minions:

(a)Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.
(b)Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal.

None of those depend on the classification of the documents, but the indictment details the mishandling of classified information, while making it clear that Trump knew that what he was doing was criminal.

That's impossible. Only Russia invades other countries. They must have been plans to deliver freedom to Iran.

Sure. But such freedom might have become urgent if their uranium purification progressed past the point of weapons grade.