Biden says Russia is clearly 'losing the war in IRAQ'

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[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You're counting people who didn't vote?

Meaning you think that when Trump won in 2016, he only had the support of 27% of the country?

Absolutely.

In Australia we consider a voter turnout of less than 90% a threat to democracy.

When AOC won her seat in Congress, she did so with the votes of 12% of the eligible voters. Low voter turnout is bad for democracy, it encourages extremists and posers and government for and by special interests (usually the wealthy elite and corporations, but not only them).

More than 11 times the average of those 39 candidates?

And about twice as many votes as the second highest polling candidate?

Yes.

The question isn't whether or not he was the most popular candidate at the time. The question is what that tells us about the influence of far-right neo-Nazis (or Banderites, or "alt-right", or whatever you want to call them) in Ukrainian government. And the answer is, precious little.

You seem to be arguing against somebody else's argument that "Poroshenko is literally Hitler, and Jews were prohibited from holding office and even if they weren't nobody would vote for them". If that were my argument, then Zelensky's election victory would be good evidence against my argument -- but that is not my argument.

I don't know how often I have to say this before you will take it in. The problem isn't that all Ukrainians, or even a majority, are Nazis. Or that the Ukrainian government is openly and officially Nazi. It is that there are significant numbers of neo-Nazis, Banderites and other Hitlerite-adjacent extremists in the country, many of them are organised into paramilitary organisations, some are openly part of the government and military, and that they have the support and protection of oligarchs, officials, and organs of the state such as the military, the judiciary, the police and other government agencies.

Before 2022 none of this was controversial. Everyone agreed that Ukraine was home to many powerful far-right groups. Israel and Poland especially were, and remain, upset that Ukraine continues to celebrate genocidal war criminals like Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych. In the US, it was a matter of bipartisan agreement that Ukraine has a Nazi problem. It was why Obama limited aid to Ukraine to non-lethal equipment, due to fears that weapons would end up in the hands of extremists.

Where do you get the 10% from?

I misremembered this source that states his approval was 19%. Sorry.

Nazism is more than just antisemitism

Agree. antisemitism is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

Political parties change over time to suit local conditions and the personalities of their leaders, none of whom live forever. Consider how the Republicans of Lincoln differ from the Republicans of Trump, or the neo-con Republicans of Bush Jr. Or the Dixie Democrats who crossed over to become Republicans.

The German Nazi Party of the 1920s through 40s was especially influenced by the malign and unhinged racial views of Hitler, Himmler and a handful of other top leaders. Hitler took the regular anti-semitic views of many Germans in the 1920s and turned it up to 11. But that doesn't mean that all neo-Nazis who follow have to be equally obsessed with Jews beyond all else, or even that all antisemites are Nazis. Local conditions matter.

People forget that while Hitler attempted genocide against the Jews, killing six million of them, he also attempted genocide against the Slavs and killed around 8 or 9 million civilians and POWs, mostly Russians. You know who aren't Slavs? Western Ukrainians.

[–]ActuallyNot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In Australia we consider a voter turnout of less than 90% a threat to democracy.

The higher turnout is attributable to compulsory voting.

The question isn't whether or not he was the most popular candidate at the time.

Yes it is.

And his margin was vast.

The question is what that tells us about the influence of far-right neo-Nazis (or Banderites, or "alt-right", or whatever you want to call them) in Ukrainian government.

No. The question is what influence far right neo-Naizis have over the Ukrainian people.

I misremembered this source that states his approval was 19%. Sorry.

It states that he was polling at 19%. That would be amongst all parties, because it is an incorrectly rounded down of the lowest poll that he had amongst that which was 22 Jan 2021. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Ukrainian_presidential_election). The comparable figure to this 20% would be the 30% that he won in the first round of the election, not the 70% that he won in the second round.

At that time he still would have come first in the first round of a presidential election.

Nazism is more than just antisemitism

Agree. antisemitism is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

that doesn't mean that all neo-Nazis who follow have to be equally obsessed with Jews beyond all else

As with the original Nazis

or even that all antisemites are Nazis

Agree. antisemitism is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

You know who aren't Slavs? Western Ukrainians.

You know who's a jew? The Ukrainian Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The higher turnout is attributable to compulsory voting.

Gosh, thanks for explaining it to me, an Australian. All these years I thought it was because of the democracy snags.

The question isn't whether or not he was the most popular candidate at the time.

Yes it is.

Actually not.

Zelensky's popularity in the presidential elections has zero to do with the existence of a genuine far-right neo-Nazi threat in Ukraine.

In Germany after World War One, Kurt Eisner was elected as premier of Bavaria. Walther Rathenau and Rudolf Hilferding were both elected to the cabinet in the Weimar Republic (Rathenau served as Foreign Minister, and Hilferding as Finance Minister). By your logic this proves that there was no antisemitism in Germany between the wars.

No. The question is what influence far right neo-Naizis have over the Ukrainian people.

Of more immediate concern is the power and influence of neo-Nazis within the apparatus of the state: government, police, military. And there is no doubt that this is much too high.

In America, the amount of official government support for the Confederacy and various slave-owning Confederate generals is remarkably high, but at least nobody has made Nathan Bedford Forrest's birthday a national holiday, or put the Aryan Brotherhood organisation into the US Army to be trained and supplied while still allowing them to keep their extremist ideology and recruiting.

And then, when the international media spotlight falls on them, simply declares that although the Aryan Brotherhood Battalion still uses all the same language, rhetoric and symbology of their racist past, they're no longer actually racist anymore, just because 🙄

The FBI is soft on the far-right until they commit actual crimes, but they do go after those who commit crimes. In Ukraine, right-wing violence is often not investigated at all, and local authorities have been known to pay the far-right to attack Roma (gypsy) communities to fore them to move away. "We're not nazis, but the thugs we pay to strong-arm our enemies are" summarises the Ukrainian governments. That puts them closer to German 1930 than 1940.

that doesn't mean that all neo-Nazis who follow have to be equally obsessed with Jews beyond all else

As with the original Nazis

Even among the Hitlerite Nazis, levels of antisemitism varied greatly from those who had no strong feelings towards Jews either way to those who wanted them all dead -- especially once the Nazi Party gained power.

In any case, Ukraine in 2023 is not Germany in 1923 and Ukrainian neo-Nazi far-right white supremacist extremism is not identical to the Nazis. Even the Nazis were not identical to themselves: there are significant differences between the Nazism of Hitler compared to either Ernst Röhm, or the Strasserists.

[–]ActuallyNot 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gosh, thanks for explaining it to me, an Australian. All these years I thought it was because of the democracy snags.

I'm sorry that you needed that explained to you, but when you compare Trump's 27% or Zelenskyy's 45% to Albanese's 44% two-party preferred, corrected for informal votes and people who didn't turn out, the difference is compulsory voting in Australia.

Trump got fewer votes than Clinton, but that's the ballpark what you need to become president. Albanese had a surprise win, but not a landslide. Zelenskyy won in a landslide.

Zelensky's popularity in the presidential elections has zero to do with the existence of a genuine far-right neo-Nazi threat in Ukraine.

Not zero. They're not that much of an influence if when a jew runs for president, they can't get 27% of people to vote for Poroshenko. Even though 54% voted for Poroshenko in 2014 in the first round.

By your logic this proves that there was no antisemitism in Germany between the wars.

Not exactly:

Here are some important differences:

1) Zelenskyy president of the whole country.

2) My argument doesn't conclude that there's no antisemitism. Only that there's insufficient to justify the Russian invasion.

Of more immediate concern is the power and influence of neo-Nazis within the apparatus of the state: government, police, military. And there is no doubt that this is much too high.

Okay. Lets start with the government. Who are the neo-Nazis in Zelenskyy's government, and what is the evidential basis for claiming that their power and influence is "much too high"?

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm sorry that you needed that explained to you

I'm sorry that I thought you could recognise sarcasm without an emoji.

Who are the neo-Nazis in Zelenskyy's government

You don't pay attention to what I say, do you? I have never said that the Ukrainian government was openly Nazi, or that the Nazis have widespread electoral support. That's not the point -- the Germany government wasn't openly Nazi in 1928 either, and nor did the Nazi Party gain widespread electoral support until 1932 or so, and even then it was not even close to a majority.

With the obvious exception of the founder of Azov, I'm not aware of many openly far-right neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian government. That's not to say that there aren't, just that I'm not aware of them.

what is the evidential basis for claiming that their power and influence is "much too high"?

Are you actually going to bother reading the sources I supply? Am I wasting my time?

Until it got dropped down the memory hole, the influence and power of Ukrainian Nazis to operate openly with impunity while the government either does nothing or gives them tacit support was widely recognised by the media everywhere.

[–]ActuallyNot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry that I thought you could recognise sarcasm without an emoji.

I recognized it. But whether or not you knew that you were being misleading comparing Zelenskyy's proportion of registered voters to what is common in Australia, It still seemed necessary to point out that Zelenskyy won in a landslide.

I have never said that the Ukrainian government was openly Nazi, or that the Nazis have widespread electoral support.

When you said "Of more immediate concern is the power and influence of neo-Nazis within the apparatus of the state: government [...]", who are the neo-Nazis holding power and influence within the government?

Are you actually going to bother reading the sources I supply? Am I wasting my time?

That question was specifically about the Neo-Nazis with influence and power within the government.

"Neo-Nazis and the Far-Right are on the march in Ukraine".

Yep. Ukraine has Neo-Nazis, and a far right. As with other extreme views, these become accentuated at times of fear of National existence, such as the invasion and annexation of Crimea, and battles with Russian-backed militia in the east.

I note that this was written before Zelenskyy's election.

Far-right attacks against Roma.

Yep. Ukraine has racists. I note that this story too was from before the current Government.

But it's okay, because they tell Western journalists that even though they call themselves Nazis, they're not really Nazis just concerned citizens

Ukraine has Neo-Nazis.

This was written before Zelenskyy's election.

and the Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who was widely suspected of using Azov as a private army, assures everyone that he won't allow "alternative military formations" on the streets, so that's fine.

Azov are now a brigade of the National Guard of Ukraine. And have been depoliticized, at least to some extent.

Bandera's birthday is a national holiday.

A divisive figure.

Those who celebrate him don't do it for being a Nazi collaborator, but for fighting for the independence of Ukraine. Initially that didn't align with the Nazis, and he was arrested and imprisoned by the gestapo. Later it did and they released him, hoping he would fight the Soviets.

But radio free europe are wrong about it being a national holiday.

National holidays are here

Note that there's victory day, "On the Immortalization of Victory over Nazism in World War II of 1939-1945", but not Bandera's birthday.

The Ukrainian military openly displays Nazi iconography.

I don't see it. Am I supposed to make out a swastika in that photo?

Ukraine's Nazi issue used to be of bipartisan concern.

What is the legislation they're talking about here?

I note that this dates from before Zelenskyy's time.

Facebook used to classify Azov as a Nazi hate group for wanting to wage a race war.

They probably were.

But Azov are a brigade of the National Guard of Ukraine now.