you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Wot 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (20 children)

I gotta say I really do agree with OP and another commenter here. I don't think non-gold stars that willingly fucked men are really lesbians either because lesbian not only means attracted to only women but a lack of attraction to men. I don't need to fuck a dog, dead body or child to clear any confusion or insecurity or doubt about being attracted to them because I don't have even the possibility of being attracted to them. Yet, the capacity and possibility of being attracted to men and enjoy fucking them was on the table for the vast majority "lesbians" and that's very much the dominant experience instead of that lack of attraction. I couldn't imagine pushing the idea onto straights or even gay men that they need to fuck the same/opposite sex to learn themselves and them not overwhelmingly responding with, "cool story." lol

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Then a big portion of lesbians, especially from homophobic countries, are not lesbians anymore, especially ones bullied or forced into marriage. Enjoying sex with men or liking men is the other question, thought.

[–]StoneyTangawizi1 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

If they are forced or bullied into marriages, then they are lesbians of course. And those lesbians are still believable to me than many Western "lesbians" who dated and fuck men for like several years, have kids and then waked up one day thinking that they are "lesbian" as can be seen from r/LBL or other reddit "lesbian" spaces.

However, my country is fairly conservative and homophobic, but I can tell you that forced marriages are very uncommon here. So being gold/platinum stars are pretty much the norm here, me and all of my friends are goldstars.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Well, /r/LBL is a joke and most western lesbians are only lesbians because it is fashion on lesbians and it is sexy to be lesbians for their men. Selling themselves more expensive "I was lesbian, but you was so good that I become straight for you". Most of those you are naming are just bisexuals, often straight. I actually dated one like that, even tried sex with her ("political lesbian" she was). She was trying to enjoy, but I saw so much disgust in her, she was basically telling with her body "I hate men and doing this in spite of them, there no other choice, if living without men".

I mostly know lesbians from places like Chechnya, Egypt or Georgia, and some other muslim countries, where it is often the case (including "corrective rapes", one of which I luckily escaped myself), so yeah, I should be more specific there.

[–]StoneyTangawizi1 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Yes I also believe most of those so called "lesbians" are actually bisexuals, and yes maybe even straight. I also don't believe in stories of "lesbians" who claimed they fucked men because they are drunk, lonely, sexually frustrated, bored, don't want to be a "virgin" or want to try it out/bicurious, etc.- I think those women are bisexuals. I actually believe that a very significant percentage of non-goldstars in the West are actually kinsey 4 or 5s, febfems or just straight "political lesbians".

Wow that's horrible. I'm really sorry for that. Are goldstars common among lesbians in those countries if they were not forced into marriages?

[–]VioletRemi 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

When I am completely wasted, I was starting to sexually harass straight women, not men. When brain is not working and instincts are kicking in - body does what it programmed to. So if with brain on, it is possible to force yourself to have sex with man, with brain out - nah, never. Unless you cannot move and basically getting raped.

Are goldstars common among lesbians in those countries if they were not forced into marriages?

I think yes, but it is hard to live as lonely woman. And if country allows "few wifes", then it is possible to marry and never have sex with husband.

I would be gold star as well, but I wanted to become straight and live normal life, as I was fired from job for being lesbian, was beated up (still have scars on face and body) and almost "correctivelly raped", and that man was really kind person, the best man I've met till this day, so I thought, maybe at least with him I will be able to start loving men. Sadly or gladly, but that not worked out and we divorced after 2 years. He was actually very kind person, and when understood that nothing is working, he stopped forcing any sex or intimacy at all. I was even sad that can't love him back, lol. We went to sexologist and doctor said that I am frigid, and ignored me talking about liking women. After that I was trying to "become a man" instead, so to appear straight, but I am too short and feminine looking for that, so it failed too - I am glad that transmen trend was not up back then, or I could ruin my body forever.

[–]Elvira95 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

I wish you could sexually harrass me...

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Oh god, Elvy, stahp :D

[–]Elvira95 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I love your drunk self :D

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just don't alcoholize me too much, lmao.

[–]yousaythosethings 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have no problem whatsoever with gold star positivity but I am not myself one and neither are the majority of lesbians I personally know, even the ones that I find impossible to picture with a man. While you are entitled to your opinion, there are a number of possible scenarios that can result in a lesbian not being a gold star due to having “willingly fucked” a man. Trauma often has a lot to do with how we end up in this scenario making the choice that results in us not being gold stars. It doesn’t mean we were ever attracted to men.

But I do believe generally that there is a scale of believability. Some people’s stories don’t really add up to them being lesbians and there are now resources actively convincing straight and bisexual women that they’re lesbians when they’re not.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trauma often has a lot to do with how we end up in this scenario making the choice that results in us not being gold stars. It doesn’t mean we were ever attracted to men.

But I do believe generally that there is a scale of believability. Some people’s stories don’t really add up to them being lesbians and there are now resources actively convincing straight and bisexual women that they’re lesbians when they’re not.

Completely agree.

[–]StoneyTangawizi1 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm actually the OP myself and tbh, I have to admit that I hard time identifying or feeling in common with the majority of lesbians as well if "fucking and dating men" was the dominant and common experience.

I feel the following story below needs to be heard much more. Its from another forum. Its good example of goldstar positivity.

While I understand and respect that women and lesbians's journey can be different, as someone who grew up with a lesbian aunt and her group of lesbian friends (nine of them women from two different continents, and five different countries. My aunt and I are Irish/North Indians. Four are surgeons like my aunt, two lawyers, one architect, one accountant and one forensic research scientist), I feel like the notion and careless mention that "non gold stars" are many is an utter disrespect for many, many, many, many "gold stars/platinum stars".

Back in the days of my aunt and her friends' youthful days(early 70s to early 90s, where they were between their teenage years and twenties, they don't go by the star thing. In fact, they are beautiful and intelligent young women who chose to concentrate on furthering their education and establishing their career, along where they met their girlfriends and future wives)

These women come from various backgrounds and race, most of them are Europeans and Americans who didn't blindly follow any silly "peer pressure" and such. Some of their other lesbian friends who were from more conservative, religious background who initially thought that there was something wrong with them actually didn't resort to "following their peers or trying to date men", instead they isolated themselves from doing something that is extremely revolting to them. Eventually, they understood that being a lesbian is absolutely normal, and the hetero-patriarchal society they live in will never get to dictate their lives.

Growing up amidst these wonderful, brave women and learning more from their friends and acquaintances made me realise that stories and journies like this are often silenced and not spoken or told widely enough because these women treat being a lesbian as normal and as natural as the sun and moon, and defying the misogynistic, hetero-patriarchal society.

My sympathies and understanding for those who weren't brave or fortunate enough to have such courage and clearer mind and convictions but in all honesty, these are not the stories that should be told often because these are NOT the norm. These so called "non goldstars" are NOT the norm anywhere in the world, not even in countries like America where high schoolers are pressured to loose their "virginity" like it's some damn plague. It's just that they're stories and experience are repeated often, so very unfortunately. It almost seems like it's done on purpose by some other groups of people that try to tell other girls and women "hey, you can't decide you're gay/lesbian unless you've tried having sex or having sexual relations with men", which is extremely, disgustingly revolting. It's nothing but male entitlement demanding that any woman or girl must be available to men. This has to be eradicated, like twenty centuries ago.

My wish and advice to young lesbians is that they understand that in no terms do they ever have to do something that they're uncomfortable with, in no terms do they have to try something that they find utterly revolting just because their other friends are doing it, in no terms do they have to feel pressured to let their body be a merely available sexual object for some entitled piece of shit.

My wish for especially the young lesbians is that they understand that yes, it's absolutely normal to wait; Yes, it's absolutely normal to simply wait even for your very first kiss, your very first sexual relation with a girl/woman whom YOU are sexually (and even romantically) attracted to and who SHE is mutually attracted to and respects and cherish you as a person. Yes, it's absolutely alright to want your "firsts" to be special, with that special girl/woman.

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh gotcha, well thanks for making that post! Really a pity the sub is now banned.

I think that post that you shared has a fantastic message. I wish I had heard that when I was younger.

That said-- I am kind of skeptical of this claim:

but in all honesty, these are not the stories that should be told often because these are NOT the norm. These so called "non goldstars" are NOT the norm anywhere in the world, not even in countries like America where high schoolers are pressured to loose their "virginity" like it's some damn plague.

Source? I am skeptical because unless there is data, it is just a battle of "no, MY anecdote is more common!" she-said, she-said, so to speak. I haven't read up on this topic at all, though, it could well be true.

Perhaps I am not fully understanding what "goldstar" means, as well-- my understanding was that if, say, you were raped you'd be a non-goldstar, the same as you'd be no longer a virgin, correct me if I'm wrong (I am not much impressed by the label "virgin", but just as a point of comparison). And lesbians are like 2-3 times likelier than straight women to have been through sexual abuse, for example, so it would make sense that many would self-describe as being "non-goldstar" if they define the term this way. edit: and would also explain their insecurity about it... which is entirely understandable but not an excuse for bullying others, please go to therapy, people.

Tbh-- I think mental illness plays into it, too. Those who have no sense of boundaries, or who were groomed from childhood, are unlikely to say no or to realize that they can say no. Again, lesbians are statistically at a disadvantage on that front. There was a fascinating comment about this on a thread I saw on here a while ago, I might try and find it.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm actually the OP myself and tbh, I have to admit that I hard time identifying or feeling in common with the majority of lesbians as well if "fucking and dating men" was the dominant and common experience.

Is this really the common experience? I'm not gold star, but I would not sum up my experience as "dating and fucking men."

[–]StoneyTangawizi1 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It seems pretty common from what I noticed of several users from truelesbians and many other lesbian spaces. But this narrative is also very common; the "I fucked a dude once when I was young and never again" type of stories.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For me it was twice, but not PiV sex, which I could never bring myself to do, and I cried afterwards both times and wondered what was wrong with me. I never had a boyfriend, and I never even kissed any of my "dates." This idea that you're either gold-star or living some "dating and fucking dudes" sex-and-the-city lifestyle before coming out just seems so weird to me.

I have seen the whole "I've had a dozen boyfriends, but the last one cheated on me, so I'm gay now" in grosser places like LBL, but I never saw it on TL. Gross if so. Ugh.

[–]StoneyTangawizi1 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Apologies for asking but may I asked were those two times bjs, handies or did you get fingered or eaten out by them? Its strange though because I have heard some lesbians claim that they never have sex with a dude but have give him a handy or bj. And that confused me because isn't that still a form of sex/sexual act or do they think PIV is the only "actual sex"? Because going by that standard, goldstars are literally virgins for their whole lives as well as they never interact in anyway or form with a dick.

I wonder how many non-goldstars never have PIV but did bj, handy, get fingered or eaten out by a guy?

Yes I don't know where that stereotype of "dating and fucking dudes" come from. Maybe something to do with how sex-obsessed, phallocentric the US or anywhere else in the West is?

Well maybe not that type of narrative, but I think have seen a few posts of "dating and sleeping of several males" as a self harm on TL.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems pretty common from what I noticed of several users from truelesbians and many other lesbian spaces.

Huh, that's kind of fascinating. I will admit, I was only on TL like a week before it was banned, so idk how much it differed from here.

the "I fucked a dude once when I was young and never again" type of stories.

I feel like that situation is likely happen out of different reasons/motivations than repeatedly seeking out dudes, though. If I'm trying a food that's new, I might try it once out of curiosity and if it's gross I stop eating it; I don't try it another 10 times, lol. Unless someone were forcing me to keep trying it, of course (and then you have a situation of coercion). (edit: Or unless I am very unaware of my body's reaction to that food. This is where mental illness steps in. Many disorders have as a symptom a lack of ability to recognize one's bodily sensations or emotions. And mental illness is prevalent among lesbians, so this is a pretty relevant detail.) A common societal message directed at lesbians is: "You have to try dick in order to be sure you don't like it." If you have a given group of lesbians, I'm sure some have the boundaries/personality traits/whatever to say, "Fuck no" even if they're being pressured, but some might be pressured into it and try it once. Or multiple times if they live in a homophobic family/religion with threat of violence, etc., and are trying to prove to someone that they are straight in order to avoid repercussions.

I could see how your perspective is a lot different if in your country where you grew up, there was a lot more pressure of "saving yourself until marriage". In fact-- I wouldn't be surprised if among "non-goldstars" from your country, they are more likely to NOT be lesbians, than "non-goldstars" from USA, because there would have been little pressure for them to try dating men first, and it would've been more likely that it happened voluntarily. (Correct me if I've misrepresented your country's views.)