DiscussionDo you think the queer and trans movement will drive lesbians - particularly young lesbians - into the arms of radical feminists?

submitted by SickOfThisShitNow from self.LGBDropTheT

I'm just looking for other people's perceptions - or your own experiences of this. Although my primary concern is the impact that the TQ movement is having, it does worry me that the reaction will be to escape into another ideology, which again looks appealing on the surface but doesn't represent our interests.

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[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 40 insightful - 5 fun40 insightful - 4 fun41 insightful - 5 fun -  (55 children)

What's wrong with radical feminists?

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 9 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 8 fun -  (7 children)

It's difficult to sum up in a few sentences (I have a lot of experience with them as they do look appealing at a surface level and it took me a long time to piece together what was happening and to accept that I hadn't found a refuge from TQ but had walked into something else destructive and damaging). Off the top of my head: Their ideology and priorities are all about heterosexuality. Lesbianism is just a strategy (ie giving up men and identifying as a lesbian as a statement against the patriarchy). They have little understanding or interest in lesbian issues or addressing lesbophobia, including within the movement, particularly from straight and bi women who identify as lesbians. It looks like they care about lesbian issues but over time you will notice that it's completely about things that fit with their ideology anyway - so basically the trans issue, male violence against lesbians. With the oppression olympics and them fighting against LGBT organisations, it's politically useful for them to claim that they are fighting for lesbian rights and representing us but we are just a tool. There are some decent people in radical feminism but also some of the worst people I've met in my life - and some of the most blatant homophobia and lesbophobia (but they hide behind identifying as lesbians). Although I have largely stayed out of it, the 'sisterhood' fights, breaks into factions, lies about and betrays each other more than any women I know (if you google feminist trashing you will see this is a problem that goes back since the early days of the movement.) I think the slur TERF to characterise anyone who opposes the extremes of the current trans movement has been a great gift to radfems - in truth most people involved in this aren't radfems or have started calling themselves radfems because they think it just means people who know there are two sexes. I don't disagree with working with radfems on this issue, just as I don't necessarily disagree with working with conservatives (depending on the circumstances) but I think it's a mistake to then think that they represent our interests.

[–]GConly 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Their ideology and priorities are all about heterosexuality.

A very large portion of radfems are lesbian, way larger than is standard. So I'm not sure where you are getting that impression.

Lesbianism is just a strategy (ie giving up men and identifying as a lesbian as a statement against the patriarchy).

Wut now? Never seen that one.

Also.. kittens won't die if you break your text up into paragraphs. Most people are visually repelled by a wall of text like yours. They will at most skim it.

[–]fuckupaddamsBisexual Terve 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Literally most radfems are gnc lesbians.

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think gnc lesbians even make up a big enough percentage of the female population for that to be true.

Anyway from when I used to lurk on r/gendercritical it seemed to me most of them referenced having husbands/boyfriends/male casual affair partners, seemed like most of them were straight to me.

[–]votkriscan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

R/gendercritical is not a radical feminist forum though. Most people were really there just to talk about the TQ issue because there aren't a lot of spaces to discuss it if you aren't a christian or religious. Christians, for example, have their own churches and groups to talk vividly about the matter. However, anywhere else in the general non-religious mainstream will likely get you cancelled.

Some women may also use the opportunity to talk about sexism issues that affect them, since the forum is also designed for it, but that is very different from being an actual radical feminist.

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Perhaps it wasn't a strictly radfem forum, but it did seem like the majority of posters there were radfems

[–]fuckupaddamsBisexual Terve 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most females are not radfems. But anyway you could be right, I'm talking about the younger ones on Tumblr

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think most lesbians are radfems either though, is the thing. If there has been an increase in young lesbians turning to radical feminism, it's probably in response to all the TQ+ shit, as OP mentioned.

[–]tu_jode_mucho 32 insightful - 2 fun32 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

Not trying to be combative, I'm legit curious how does radical feminism not represent lesbians' interests? I would think it may conflict with some of straight women's interests but not necessarily lesbians, but I'm no expert.

[–]nettygay5 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (9 children)

It doesnt just "conflict", it's hostile to homosexuality. And it's not just straight women but bisexual women as well. You should see their relationship to lesbians within these spaces. And Lesbians are homosexuals. The overwhelming majority of them belong to the homosexual community, which includes homosexual males. This whole "woman utopia" thing is ridiculous when most of these women are furiously masturbating to dick like incels while complaining about the men, luring lesbians in as if theyre going to be part of some magical cult is pretty pathetic. It's as dumb as gay men thinking they'll get their rights trying to build "penis land". "womanhood" is an illusion they try to hold together with duct tape called "intersectionalism". Gay marriage, access to insurance, the right to see your dying partner at their last moment before they pass (that was denied to many homosexuals), the religious institutions that regulate and advantage heterosexuals and their relationships...again, all of those were homosexual problems caused by homophobia that affect both gay men and gay women. What does radical feminism do except pretend you're in some sort of "no men allowed" club that causes tension between homosexual males and females. Straight women are closer to the patriarchy than gay men are so this whole "sisterhood" thing doesnt make that much sense.

[–]malloww 24 insightful - 2 fun24 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I dunno dude, based on the history I'm aware of and my personal experiences, gay men are pretty happy to use our labor and treat us like accessories in their lives, just like everybody else. Your argument seems to be centered on how being gay is more important to our experience than being female, but you take that as a given and don't question your premise at all. Yes, marriage and legal rights to medical care for your partner and being treated as legal next of kin is very, very important. So is being able to have a bank account and a job and a life without a male cosigner. And I say this as a person who recently got a pep talk from my male boss (who doesn't know I'm gay because his mind would explode) about how brave I am for being a "single female". Point is, you assume we have more in common with you than with straight women, but you don't seem to have examined that belief at all. Please explain in detail why you think homophobia should outweigh sexism for us. Please explain in detail why you think my partnership should be more important to me than my legal right to existing as an independent human being in my own right.

[–]BEB 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, in the US it was the weight of gay-supportive straight women's opinions and votes(!) that got politicians to pass gay rights bills.

IMO, if it were up to heterosexual men over 45 now, gay rights would have languished. I think a lot of straight men over 45 still don't truly support gay rights - they might tolerate them, but I wouldn't say they would go out and fight for them like some straight women did.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I don't see gay dudes being any more supporting to women than any men. The gay movement has always been focused on them, feminism has always spoken more to homosexual women than the gay rights movement. And as you said,, beign female is just bigger part than romantic relationships.

[–]BEB 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not to discount at all your experiences, but I am pretty old and have been around the gay rights movement, as well as tons of lesbians, for decades and I don't see that conflict in my own experiences.

In fact, it seemed to me that it was primarily lesbians who woke up to gender ideology before anyone else.

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

I've tried to answer this above. Happy to discuss further if that doesn't answer your question - It's difficult to summarise without writing an essay!

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think radical feminism has been erased so thoroughly it's difficult for young women to find the radfems even if they go looking for them. They have no presence in Universities anymore, no in-person organizing, just Ovarit and Spinsters. My guess would be Ovarit skews older because of the invite system. You have to already have an established internet presence in the right places to get an invite, not likely from teenage girls who were literally kids in the heyday of Gendertrender and r/gendercritical.

I can't imagine how painful it must be to be a teenage lesbian right now. There's no one to talk to and nowhere to go, especially trapped at home with your family the past year. I would have been clawing at the walls after a couple of months given what a mess I was in Highschool.

I do think there will be a wave of conservative and religious lesbians coming out of this situation, because those communities can be safer for them to be in than some queer communities. They'll have a choice between constant sexual harassment and being disapproved of but mostly left alone. The only alternative available most places in the U.S. to whatever aspect of popular culture you dissent from is the conservative subculture.

[–]howdidthishappen 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Just for the record: Ovarit invites don’t work like that. Pretty much all you need is a Twitter account to message the ovarit account and get a code. Or come across someone currently giving out codes. You don’t need an “established internet presence” or anything and the invite is only needed if you want to post/comment on there.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Eh, I'm gonna stick with what I said. You have to Tweet a little before they'll give you a code?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaclownfish is a clown or a fish? || Febfem 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You still need to know about them and specifically search for them or for people who have invites there.

[–]howdidthishappen 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Back then I made an account just to message them, so no tweets at all and got a code

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nice. That is a security flaw, though. Keeping a private group online while attracting new members is almost impossible though, for this exact reason.

[–]Uranian 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I hope so! Women need better than the bunch of handmaidens currently throwing their own sex under the bus.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Radical feminism is mostly synonymous with material feminism, and as such I think it's a stretch to call it an ideology. Off the top of my head their only purely ideological/immaterial position is blank slate-ism, a position I have some sympathy for as a reaction to historical prescriptivism, even though I'm personally skeptical of it.

I don't think you're wrong about queer theory pushing lesbians towards radical feminism, but I don't think it's fair to call it swapping one ideology for another.

looks appealing on the surface but doesn't represent our interests

In what way(s) does radical feminism fail to represent lesbians' interests? Or did you mean LGB/gender critical interests as a whole?

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (3 children)

I'll copy what I wrote above but happy to discuss it further: It's difficult to sum up in a few sentences (I have a lot of experience with them as they do look appealing at a surface level and it took me a long time to piece together what was happening and to accept that I hadn't found a refuge from TQ but had walked into something else destructive and damaging). Off the top of my head: Their ideology and priorities are all about heterosexuality. Lesbianism is just a strategy (ie giving up men and identifying as a lesbian as a statement against the patriarchy). They have little understanding or interest in lesbian issues or addressing lesbophobia, including within the movement, particularly from straight and bi women who identify as lesbians. It looks like they care about lesbian issues but over time you will notice that it's completely about things that fit with their ideology anyway - so basically the trans issue, male violence against lesbians. With the oppression olympics and them fighting against LGBT organisations, it's politically useful for them to claim that they are fighting for lesbian rights and representing us but we are just a tool. There are some decent people in radical feminism but also some of the worst people I've met in my life - and some of the most blatant homophobia and lesbophobia (but they hide behind identifying as lesbians). Although I have largely stayed out of it, the 'sisterhood' fights, breaks into factions, lies about and betrays each other more than any women I know (if you google feminist trashing you will see this is a problem that goes back since the early days of the movement.) I think the slur TERF to characterise anyone who opposes the extremes of the current trans movement has been a great gift to radfems - in truth most people involved in this aren't radfems or have started calling themselves radfems because they think it just means people who know there are two sexes. I don't disagree with working with radfems on this issue, just as I don't necessarily disagree with working with conservatives (depending on the circumstances) but I think it's a mistake to then think that they represent our interests.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

It sounds like you're trying to do identity politics in a new way, casting gc hetero women as the oppressors and lesbians as the oppressed. Lesbians make up a small percentage of women, so I wouldn't expect a feminist movement to center their interests. Nor do I see how radical feminism is at all at odds with lesbianism (and no, your ridiculous and antiquated assertions of political lesbianism don't count).

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I don't expect the whole of radical feminism to be about lesbians, no, but i expect lesbian feminism and other ostensibly lesbian groups, sessions, articles etc to be about lesbians and I expect lesbophobia to be challenged. I don't know what you mean about political lesbianism - are you saying that it is ridiculous and antiquated to be critical of it or are you denying that it is a prominent feature of radical feminism? It certainly is in the UK and I am aware of political lesbians in other countries (from international groups) although some in other countries have said that they tend to keep quiet about it with newcomers and the outside world because of the negative reaction it gets.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that it is a prominent feature of radical feminism?

is (now?)

prominent

It was a small part of it 40-50 years ago, lmao.

but i expect lesbian feminism and other ostensibly lesbian groups, sessions, articles etc to be about lesbians

You understand that it is still just regular feminism with extra layer of addition of how it effects lesbians specifically, but 90+% of it is still just regular feminism, because lesbians are females, so all that affects females is affecting lesbians too, right?

[–]votkriscan 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Not at all. Now if you are talking about feminist awareness in general, very likely so. The foundations on feminism about the human right to go to school, get work, own property, plan your life, not be the property, anatomy rights. We didn’t even have that just a short 100+ years ago.

Perhaps it might make people aware that these didn’t come easily and they can be taken away. And lesbians need them even more than straight women do. But if you are talking about radical feminism which is also a greater ideology, then no.

Not because it is wrong, but it’s more like, you can’t make someone believe in something that has no relation to how they lead their life. Lesbians who believe in it already have that relation. It also depends on what type of a lesbian you are.

I also notice that there is the huge mistaken assumption that only radfems and conservatives are disliking the impact of the TQ. And that is not true at all.

As an example, I’ve been spending some time amongst a few “savvy, straight women who believe in a more typical setup for men/women” (but not the full doormat type) women dating channels, and they pretty much dislike the impact of the TQ. As you can see, none of them has changed their minds and become radfems.

So it makes no sense why a lesbian would suddenly become a radfem because of the TQ. If she is, it is because she already feels radfem beliefs suit her way of life and/or have a positive impact.

I guess this is a roundabout way of saying that there isn’t really any correlation between the TQ and whether someone would strictly turn to radical feminism.

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I'm not a fan of any extreme ideology, and I would say radical feminism is extreme.

Just some background on me I suppose...

I used to be extremely interested in radical feminism, studied up on it, watched videos, read articles, and spoke with other radfems to better understand the ideology. In the end, I came to the conclusion of just staying unaligned.

I've made a couple comments in the past about my experience with radical feminism, but I will condense it down.

But first I want to say---I have nothing against radfems, so hope nobody gets it twisted. I had many radfems call me "heartless" and "cold" for not sympathizing with transitioning despite being detrans myself. I don't hate trans people, I just don't agree with any type or form of transitioning but that makes me an "extremist, heartless asshole" lol. Then I have some radfems who I like, and they were very cool to talk to. I know not all are the same.

Anyways...

My time over there, I have seen many misandrist comments and even comments shaming other women calling them handmaidens for the smallest things. There was an argument before that "women wear makeup because men made them" but then a lesbian women chimed in(not sure if she might actually be on this sub?) and said she likes to wear makeup for herself, and she's in a relationship with a woman, not a man. So they argued back and forth with her...They've also complained about women shaving---which...I don't see what the problem is as someone who's done athletics?? Both men and women shave for athletics lol. And even if they didn't, who cares if someone shaves or not? That's there personal preference. But I guess that makes them handmaidens for liking to shave. Some days I'm a hairy wookie, and other days I'm hairless and shiny like Mr. Clean's head.

In regards to the misandrist comments I saw, I saw some that said "Women shouldn't give birth, because they might end up raising another oppressor". That seems a bit fucked up to see your own son in that light for just being born. I even had someone tell me that it's in men's DNA/biological nature to be "predatory" and "rapists". Unless they're homosexual men, this radfem said that homosexual men like Blaire White are not a threat to women. Not exactly...sure what they're trying to say about homosexual men, hopefully a good thing?? But I'm thinking maybe they're not thinking well of them.

I've also noticed radical feminism is mostly american-centric. There were several posts saying "vote for Biden!! we have no choice, because he's lesser evil than Trump!!" and when a fellow latin mentioned some things that Biden did and was mostly neutral, they attacked her and said she was wrong and her comments were downvoted. There's a hive think in that particular website, if you don't agree with them, they downvote you to hell.

I actually made a controversial post that poked holes in their hypocrisy to where they called me heartless and a few other names lol. I wont post it here though, but I can DM you OP on that one haha.

Anyways to answer your question:

Do you think the queer and trans movement will drive lesbians - particularly young lesbians - into the arms of radical feminists?

I would have to say some maybe---but the #SuperStraight movment might be more appealing to the younger audience for the wholesomeness and memes. So, they'll probably check out the #SuperLesbian equivalent to it.

I'm just looking for other people's perceptions - or your own experiences of this. Although my primary concern is the impact that the TQ movement is having, it does worry me that the reaction will be to escape into another ideology, which again looks appealing on the surface but doesn't represent our interests.

Yeah, it can be worrisome. My younger brother is in his early 20s, when he was in college, he got sucked up into those religious cults and wouldn't shut the fuck up about it for the longest time. When he dropped out of college, he realized how ridiculous the cult was and went back to being an agnostic/"apatheist"(aka, doesn't give a shit about what is or isn't). But now he debates those former cultists when they try to proselytize him and purposely argues with them for "fun", but I digress.

Anywho, I don't particular like to identify with any ideology at all. Some people try to make it their whole being/"personality". Atheism seems to be a word used more for politics[ex. "All atheists are liberals!!! If you don't agree with us, you're just as bad as those Christians!! But also we don't mind Muslims for some strange reason because we're progressives!!! That'd be 'racist' if we didn't agree with Muslims!!!"] than it's actually meaning now, so I don't use that word to identify myself. Now I just say I lack belief or don't have religion. I could go on about the atheist community but then I'd be straying way off topic lol.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaclownfish is a clown or a fish? || Febfem 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I've also noticed radical feminism is mostly american-centric.

Maybe in groups you were in. But biggest groups of radical feminists are Korean, Indian and African - and their problems are ones that can't be fixed with any other form of feminism. And majority of prominent or famous radfems are all Europeans as well.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

First legitimate criticism in this entire thread 👍 Thank you for making it. It reminds me of some of the more absurd things I've seen in the radfem community and definitely makes me rethink my previous comment about radical feminism not being an ideology.

In your experience are those beliefs about makeup, shaving and men's predatory nature actually foundational to radical feminism, or just a representation of its more extreme adherents? I'd assumed it was the latter since those comments usually seem to generate disagreement.

I actually made a controversial post that poked holes in their hypocrisy to where they called me heartless and a few other names lol. I wont post it here though, but I can DM you OP on that one haha.

Could you DM me this as well?

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I actually made a controversial post that poked holes in their hypocrisy to where they called me heartless and a few other names lol. I wont post it here though, but I can DM you OP on that one haha.

Will you send it to me too? I'm curious.

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, please send it to me, thanks.

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, please send it to me, thanks.

[–]usehername 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you responded to the wrong person.

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes please DM me.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes: I saw a poll a couple of years ago asking rad fems their ages - I was shocked that most rad fems responding seemed to be under 35, with many in their late teens/early 20s.

Of course, that could be because older, 2nd Wave feminists, are still asleep, or because they wouldn't describe themselves as rad fems because they have no idea what that term means.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not a radical feminist, I agree with some of their beliefs, and I disagree with others. I personally don’t care if a lesbian is a radfem as long as she is onboard with LGB rights and affords the same respect to gay men and bisexuals that she does to other lesbians.

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Political lesbianism is not a popular idea on the GC sub and Ovarit, nor is it endorsed by WoLF. Maybe these people aren't really considered radfems but they are by far the largest "radfem" groups. I'd even go so far as to say (in the U.S.) the only radfem group is WoLF. A lot of people take issue with them because they were given a platform by the Heritage foundation (a homophobic organization) but WoLF doesn't endorse any of that. Does anyone who posts a YouTube video endorse all the scummy shit that Google does?

Definition of an ideology:

A set of doctrines or beliefs that are shared by the members of a social group or that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.

It sounds like you've been reading a lot of this blog: https://thedirtfromdirt.com/ Are you?

I always hear claims that the site is homophobic and racist but I lurk daily and I have not seen it. These people can never link me to a specific post that backs up their claims.

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've never seen that blog so, no, don't bother trying to put someone else's views on me to use as a strawman. As I think I've said my experience is largely from the UK, but, from international groups, I am aware of political lesbians from different countries.

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hmm just looked up political lesbianism in the U.K. and was not aware of Sheila Jeffreys. :/ Yeah that is definitely a problem.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some people are just wired to be drawn to extremist groups. Radfem and TRA dogma is pretty interchangeable if you swap a few target demographics around. So for a lot of people it’d be tempting to just switch