DiscussionDo you think the queer and trans movement will drive lesbians - particularly young lesbians - into the arms of radical feminists?

submitted by SickOfThisShitNow from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Radical feminism is mostly synonymous with material feminism, and as such I think it's a stretch to call it an ideology. Off the top of my head their only purely ideological/immaterial position is blank slate-ism, a position I have some sympathy for as a reaction to historical prescriptivism, even though I'm personally skeptical of it.

I don't think you're wrong about queer theory pushing lesbians towards radical feminism, but I don't think it's fair to call it swapping one ideology for another.

looks appealing on the surface but doesn't represent our interests

In what way(s) does radical feminism fail to represent lesbians' interests? Or did you mean LGB/gender critical interests as a whole?

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (3 children)

I'll copy what I wrote above but happy to discuss it further: It's difficult to sum up in a few sentences (I have a lot of experience with them as they do look appealing at a surface level and it took me a long time to piece together what was happening and to accept that I hadn't found a refuge from TQ but had walked into something else destructive and damaging). Off the top of my head: Their ideology and priorities are all about heterosexuality. Lesbianism is just a strategy (ie giving up men and identifying as a lesbian as a statement against the patriarchy). They have little understanding or interest in lesbian issues or addressing lesbophobia, including within the movement, particularly from straight and bi women who identify as lesbians. It looks like they care about lesbian issues but over time you will notice that it's completely about things that fit with their ideology anyway - so basically the trans issue, male violence against lesbians. With the oppression olympics and them fighting against LGBT organisations, it's politically useful for them to claim that they are fighting for lesbian rights and representing us but we are just a tool. There are some decent people in radical feminism but also some of the worst people I've met in my life - and some of the most blatant homophobia and lesbophobia (but they hide behind identifying as lesbians). Although I have largely stayed out of it, the 'sisterhood' fights, breaks into factions, lies about and betrays each other more than any women I know (if you google feminist trashing you will see this is a problem that goes back since the early days of the movement.) I think the slur TERF to characterise anyone who opposes the extremes of the current trans movement has been a great gift to radfems - in truth most people involved in this aren't radfems or have started calling themselves radfems because they think it just means people who know there are two sexes. I don't disagree with working with radfems on this issue, just as I don't necessarily disagree with working with conservatives (depending on the circumstances) but I think it's a mistake to then think that they represent our interests.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

It sounds like you're trying to do identity politics in a new way, casting gc hetero women as the oppressors and lesbians as the oppressed. Lesbians make up a small percentage of women, so I wouldn't expect a feminist movement to center their interests. Nor do I see how radical feminism is at all at odds with lesbianism (and no, your ridiculous and antiquated assertions of political lesbianism don't count).

[–]SickOfThisShitNow[S] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I don't expect the whole of radical feminism to be about lesbians, no, but i expect lesbian feminism and other ostensibly lesbian groups, sessions, articles etc to be about lesbians and I expect lesbophobia to be challenged. I don't know what you mean about political lesbianism - are you saying that it is ridiculous and antiquated to be critical of it or are you denying that it is a prominent feature of radical feminism? It certainly is in the UK and I am aware of political lesbians in other countries (from international groups) although some in other countries have said that they tend to keep quiet about it with newcomers and the outside world because of the negative reaction it gets.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that it is a prominent feature of radical feminism?

is (now?)

prominent

It was a small part of it 40-50 years ago, lmao.

but i expect lesbian feminism and other ostensibly lesbian groups, sessions, articles etc to be about lesbians

You understand that it is still just regular feminism with extra layer of addition of how it effects lesbians specifically, but 90+% of it is still just regular feminism, because lesbians are females, so all that affects females is affecting lesbians too, right?