all 19 comments

[–]Shadow_Lurker 23 insightful - 3 fun23 insightful - 2 fun24 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

'Heteroromantic homosexual' means one is romantically attracted to the opposite sex, is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex, is sexually attracted to the same sex, and is not romantically attracted to the same sex.

Ow! My head...

The split attraction model is based on a misunderstanding of the philosophical concept of platonic love. In Plato's writing, 'carnal love' is a step for platonic love and they don't exist mutually separated from each other as most tend to believe.

The people that peddle the split attraction model tend to conflate close friendships with romantic love like compulsive shippers. As with the whole 'genital preference' shit, this occurs mainly because most of them are touch starved inexperienced colege kids.

'Heteroromantic homosexual'

Nobody with a brain cell still intact eats this shit.

Most people (men and woman alike) think this is either:

  • A gay men taking a beard

  • A bisexual men that wants to still sleep around with other men while in a relationship with a woman

[–]endless_assfluff 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It hasn't been debunked because it's unfalsifiable. To debunk it, the claim we would need to prove is "nobody who has existed, ever, has not been romantically attracted to one group of people and sexually attracted to another." And we can't test that.

I'd say the bigger issue is lumping romantic attraction into the definition of 'orientation,' because it undermines the research done to show that sexual orientation is inborn and immutable.

First off (and this is the slightly weaker argument), by the definition the author gives in the first article you linked, the 'desire to have a committed, romantic relationship with someone' can be influenced by social factors, while sexual orientation cannot. Both sources try to distinguish between romantic and nonsexual attraction, but they don't specify the difference between close, affectionate friendships and nonsexual romantic relationships. I'd argue this is because the idea of a nonsexual romantic relationship is a social construct. If not with sex, where do they draw the line? Because if they don't, two couples showing the exact same nonsexual behavior could be considered friends or partners depending on how they choose to label themselves. And then it's a societal label, not a descriptor of any meaningful difference in behavior. If the definition they have for a 'romantic relationship' is divorced from sexual attraction, the factors that lead them to label a relationship as 'romantic' are societal, and so the decision is a social one. Not one with any relation to biology.

And the second bit (stronger argument) is that 'romantic orientation' can change, as the author of the first article admits. She says, "my orientation is really fluid and changes often." That's quite a vague statement: is she saying her romantic orientation changes often, but her sexual orientation does not? Or that her romantic and sexual orientation both change? Or that only her sexual orientation changes? Because the statement she made could mean any of those things.

That sort of semantic confusion, placing 'the desire for a romantic relationship' or 'tender feelings' at the same level as sexual orientation, does one of two things. It either lends a false gravitas to the idea of romantic-but-nonsexual attraction---suggesting that romantic and sexual orientation are both well-studied and empirically established concepts, when really it's just sexual orientation---or it suggests that sexual orientation is a mutable social choice just like 'romantic orientation' is. Bleh in either direction.

I feel compelled to clarify that the difference between romantic attraction, sexual attraction, and no attraction is indeed ill-defined in these sources, but if you go that route, the opposing party can just continue to assert their definition as if you "didn't get it." Now, "how the heck do you differentiate between 'tender' and 'passionate' feelings when both of these are subjective, where, in contrast, sexual arousal is an observable physiological response?" is a tempting question to ask because it indeed makes no sense. But if you ask that, you're opening yourself for a condescending explanation of the words 'tender' and 'passionate,' and then you're gonna have a nice forehead-sized hole in your wall.

And then there are logistical issues caused by elevating romantic attraction over the other 562438645234 forms of attraction suggested by the author of the first article. "Attraction can be infinitely more complicated than that" calls the author's understanding of infinity into question, and it also suggests that if romantic attraction can be used to describe one's orientation, why not include sensual, aesthetic, platonic, etc., affection as well?

So that's the strongest counterargument to the idea of romantic orientation I can come up with right now. While these labels might help an individual classify themselves the same way a Which Spice Girl Are You? quiz would ("learning about this 'label' gave me the vocabulary to understand and describe my complicated, difficult feelings"), grouping them with sexual orientation is legit harmful.

[–]ChodeSandwichtender and moist 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy purported by sexually neurotic teens/young adults who don't want to admit that blushing and getting butterflies for someone are part of the same biological pathways and evolutionary "language" as sex.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's possible for someone to be romantically attracted to people without being into anything physical, but I honestly think most people who try to say that their attraction is split between men and women are just horny fucks who don't want anything serious.

By the logic of this model, just about everyone on grindr and tinder is an aromantic homosexual

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

I don't believe you can be "homoromantic heterosexual", or shit like that, but I think "romantic attraction" ie love and sexual attraction are separate.

I'm homosexual but I've never been "in love" with a man. And honestly I don't think most men experience love, straight or gay. I actually hate the narrative that romance and sexual attraction are inseparable and shitty virtue signal arguments like "love is love!" to defend homosexuality because... they are not. It's insulting to say that there is any "love" involved in meaningless hookups and men being perverts.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 21 insightful - 7 fun21 insightful - 6 fun22 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

You so consistently engage in blind hatred of men and make blanket statements calling them narcissists/saying most of them don't experience love that the fact you consider yourself anti-radfem is a touch on the ironic side.

[–]MarcelineKnows[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So true, OPPRESSED_REPTILIAN, aka salty emo lizard, constantly goes around and says sexist things like "most men are rapists, male sexuality is perversion and degeneracy", someone shared the messages salty emo sent them with me months ago, here's an instance: https://imgur.com/9LycEbr

And radical feminists do the same thing, they blindly hate on men like salty emo does, and call most men 'abusive rapists'. The reason they only care about 'trans women' and barely ever mention 'trans men' is because they hate men. Everytime I had conversations with radical feminists, they said things like 'kill all men, I want to remove them until noone is left', this was just one instance of it on tumblr where I was dming a radical feminist to have a discussion with her: https://imgur.com/Ng1rwwt

Salty emo hating radical feminists is ironic, they are exactly a radical feminist themselves. Or at the very least have the exact same attitude as radical feminists and say the same things they do.

I'm a woman btw, but I would never want to be associated with man-hating men or man-hating women.

[–]Eurowoman24 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Love is a cocktail of dopamine, Norepinephrine, oxcytocin hormones in the brain, either sex can experience that..

[–]MarcelineKnows[S] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Heyyy u/SALTY_EMO_LIZARD from reddit, not good to see you again.

"Forbidden opinions" ha ... homophobia doesn't seem to be forbidden within your right wing circle, or within this lgbdropthet section. You even get upvoted for being homophobic, makes me wonder how many self-hating gay and bisexual people are here.

You're russian, most russians are homophobes who think "being gay is a mental disorder". You're republican. Most republicans think "being gay is a mental disorder" just like you do. You're surrounded by people who think like you, and yet you feel "oppressed"? That's funny. Remember how you were all "that's russianphobia!"? How you believe "homophobia" does not exist but "russianphobia" does? I'm here to tell you: "Russianphobia does not exist because I say so". Sounds better.

Oh and, health is not objective, just like morality is not objective. You claim "being gay is unhealthy like depression is unhealthy", but nothing in nature says "thou shalt not be unhealthy". "Depression is unhealthy, being unhealthy is bad uuwwu", says who? Your "God"? Last time you said you're not religious so ... Nature and evolution? Nature and evolution are not conscious entities to say what humans should or should not do.

Evolution and nature couldn't care less about you or any other human being unhealthy. Values are subjective. Humans subjectively value health, and so in their opinion, being unhealthy is "bad". That's just an opinion. And as the value of a thing can not be determined by any inherent property of the good or bad, but instead by the importance one places on what achieves their desired ends, it becomes clear most humans think being unhealthy is "bad" only because their goal is to survive, and being unhealthy hinders survival. From that goal they go "you should not be depressed, you should not be unhealthy to survive".

They subjectively value their goal to survive, and go from there, there is no objectivity to their "x is healthy so you should do x, y is unhealthy so you should not do y" statements. "Humans should survive", says who? Not "God" certainly. Not nature or evolution either as they are not conscious entities telling humans what to do and what not to do. Humans could go extinct right now and evolution wouldn't bat an eye, get angry or upset.

The "shoulds" come from most humans subjectively valuing health and their goal to survive. Just because they subjectively value that goal to survive doesn't make the value objective, it's just their opinion. Yes nothing says you should be unhealthy, but nothing says you should not be unhealthy either. There are no shoulds.

In fact, once we change the goal to "humans should not survive", then being unhealthy becomes good, the conclusion changes to "humans should be unhealthy not to survive" making both that which 'negatively impacts one's life' and the quality of being unhealthy good. So being mentally/physically unhealthy is good according to that goal which I have.

You see salty emo, your problem is you don't understand these simple things.

You think you figured it out but you haven't. You think your opinions are more than just opinions, but they are not.

sips tea

Edit: For anyone who does not know, OPPRESSED_REPTILIAN (previously known as OPPRESSED_REPUBLICAN) is the same u/SALTY_EMO_LIZARD from reddit, about 3 months ago they promoted their discord server both on here (which got removed as self-advertisements are not allowed here) and on the truegaymen subreddit, here: https://imgur.com/FAN7Jrr

https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/5mal/new_uncensored_lgbssa_discord_server/

And here: https://imgur.com/cUJcH4K

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueGayMen/comments/hw0hgu/new_uncensored_ssalgb_discord_server/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

They make the same claims as well, constantly comparing being gay to depression wherever they go, it's just obvious they are the same people, here on reddit: https://imgur.com/CRyuJHh

And here on saidit: https://imgur.com/KufZs8n

I took screenshots of the comments just in case, you can read them for yourselves as well however, here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueGayMen/comments/hw0hgu/new_uncensored_ssalgb_discord_server/fz5dit0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

And here: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/6qhk/i_signed_up_to_study_sexual_health_what_i_got_was/ptgi

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Very eloquent.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I disagree that most men don't experience love. I'll agree that it is more common among straight men than gay men, and usually because children are involved (i.e. "I love the mother of my children" model). Still, I know my husband loves me and I'm pretty sure I love him, while I acknowledge that love (in the agape sense) is very complex.

I agree with pretty much everything else you wrote.

[–]Willpoll 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

except.... it's not lol. Not every gay man does hookups or are "perverts" lmfao. It may be a foreign concept to someone like you but I've certainly felt love for someone before and I know thousands/millions of others have as well.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that men are capable of falling in love, however I think that they are able to separate sex from love in a way that women would struggle to do. However, I have never heard of a man falling in love with a person without being sexually attracted to them first.

[–]LasagnaRossa 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And honestly I don't think most men experience love, straight or gay.

Lmao talk for yourself. Many men can love and be loved, just because you didn't got that lucky yet it doesn't mean that love doesn't exist or men are incapable to love.

It's insulting to say that there is any "love" involved in meaningless hookups and men being perverts.

But there's love in gay relationships, just like any relationship based on affection and trust.

[–]HelloMomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wrote a little about it here https://moessays.wordpress.com/2020/10/31/that-time-i-was-aro-ace/ but the short version:

  1. The split attraction model isn’t something that a researcher came up with to describe their findings, such as the Kinsey Scale. It’s not a concept a philosopher put forth in an essay, complete with an explanation and defense. This framework is literally just something someone on the internet came up with, and then other people were like, “Sure, ok,” and started using. The only evidence than posits this is a useful or accurate way to describe people’s patterns of attraction is anecdotal accounts of “this works for me,” and for each of those, there is another anecdote from someone who finds this framework maladaptive.
  2. I have yet to hear a definition of “romantic attraction” that is entirely removed from eroticism, and yet is also meaningfully distinct from platonic fondness. If you ask “normal” (“allo”) people, they tend to agree that eroticism — not necessarily sex itself, but eroticism more broadly — is the delineating factor between romantic and platonic relationships.

I think that "erotic attraction" is a better term than both "romantic" and "sexual" attraction. Erotic in the sense of sort of sexual, but in a way that centers the mind rather than the body, and is as much about kissing and the like as it is about sex. No one can adequately define "romantic" attraction, and sexual attraction is too often equated to "you full-on literally want to have sex with this person."

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think this model is only good for asexuals and it shouldn't expand onto different sexual orientations.