Men's IssuesA transwoman's objection to gay male spaces

submitted by JulienMayfair from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

If you don’t think we are women, then don’t you think that gay men’s spaces are where we should be?

So if we can’t be in women’s spaces because you don’t think we are women and don’t want us in men’s spaces, where exactly are we supposed to be?

This isn’t meant to be inflammatory. I’m asking for your stance.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

This particular group was originally created by gay men for gay men. There is absolutely NOTHING stopping anyone else from doing the same for whatever demographic they happen be a part of.

Also, it's not just a matter of "being" in a certain space. Many members of GC observed that transpeople tend to want to take over spaces rather than simply coexisting in them. Transpeople in this group have very explicitly demanded to be "centered." They maneuvered themselves into a majority of the moderator positions and made a rule (violating the group's long-held policy of consensus-based process) that anyone advocating events only for gay men would be banned from the website, so we found ourselves in a peculiar position. One of the mods is a biological male in a technically heterosexual marriage to a woman with biological children, but he calls himself a lesbian transwoman. So, by either metric, why do we have a heterosexual male or a lesbian empowered to ban gay men from a group founded four decades ago by gay men and run by gay men until recently?

The rhetoric is always that transpeople just want to be part of the group; the reality is that they usually end up demanding attention, authority, and control over everyone else, policing everyone's thoughts, language, and behavior. In our group, when transpeople do not feel they have had sufficient attention paid to them, they make a huge stink about it, and every comment anyone makes is run through the mill of gender theory.

So, don't play the "We just want to get along" game with me. The reality is pretty clear: You are here to serve us, and because we rank higher than you in the oppression hierarchy, you have to put up with anything we say or do.

Let's ask another question: Why are transpeople always trying to muscle their way into every group? The gay male group I was part of for 30 years -- we did our own thing. We had our own events and pretty much minded our own business. Now, in addition to demanding to be centered, another thing we experience on a regular basis is the trans members attacking the founders of our group and calling their ideas "outdated" and "obsolete." They set out to remake the entire group to suit themselves.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Trans people look for community because they are generally marginalized and have none. There aren’t enough trans people most places for trans communities to be a thing so so have to be somewhere or be hermits. Most people can’t handle long term social isolation.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

This used to be the case for LGB people. You've pretty much described what it was like to be a gay man in much of the U.S. during the 1980s. We built communities. Back then and before, if you wanted to live any kind of gay life, you moved to NYC, Atlanta, Chicago, or SF. Gay men flocked to those places from all over, and we built neighborhoods and communities. We built a gay culture. According to what I read, more and more people are identifying as some new kind of gender. There's nothing stopping them from opening trans or non-binary bars.

I think it has to do with more than that. I think it's a need for external validation.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There is something like 30 x as many gay men as trans women. There aren’t enough of us to have a community to ourselves. Even if community isolation was what we wanted There aren’t enough of us. Also most of us are extremely poor. You can’t just move to Portland or San Francisco when you are poor.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're not doing a very good job of selling transition as a very appealing option. I mean, I'm perfectly happy being a gay man.

I guess another question is why are the LGB morally obligated to turn our groups and organizations over to transpeople? Are we responsible for making you trans? If not, then what exactly do we owe you? Why do we owe you anything?

In terms of my group, now that transpeople have installed themselves as half the moderators and have essentially made transpeople the most privileged members of the group, members who are immune to criticism and whose feelings are protected at the expense of cis gay men -- well, what exactly is fair about that? Why are the transpeople in the group constantly on the attack against our group's founders simply for founding a group for gay men forty years ago, claiming now that they were bad people for not including women and transpeople from the get-go? There were actually very good reasons for starting a group for gay men at the time, but they don't care.

Why are the LGB morally obligated to make room for transpeople when you demand to take over our groups, police everything we say, and shit on and/or co-opt our history? Why should we put up with that? Simply because we feel sorry for you?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're not doing a very good job of selling transition as a very appealing option.

It’s not supposed to be. It’s treatment for dysphoria. It’s not for fun.

I mean, I'm perfectly happy being a gay man.

Cool?

Our history is part of your history. Gay spaces were the only places many trans people could even go. So many trans women funded their transition through drag. Look at people like Sylvia Rivera who were working for the benefit of the gay community as a part of it.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Look at people like Sylvia Rivera

Sylvia Rivera . . . one person among tens of thousands of LGB activists, and one person elevated -- with deliberate and strategic dishonesty -- to a position of prominence in regard to Stonewall when she wasn't even there on the first night, used to erase all the LGB people involved.

So many trans women funded their transition through drag

It sounds like the benefits are pretty much flowing one way in that example.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not talking about stonewall. I’m talking about things like STAR

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There is something like 30 x as many gay men as trans women.

That's completely false.

According to GLAAD, across every age group there are equally as many (or more) trans-identified LGBT people as there are non-trans LGBT people. Trans people are a majority among the 18-34 category.

Here's a link to a PDF of GLAAD's report: https://www.glaad.org/files/aa/2017_GLAAD_Accelerating_Acceptance.pdf

Here's GLAAD's summary of the report on their website: https://www.glaad.org/releases/accelerating-acceptance-glaad-study-reveals-twenty-percent-millennials-identify-lgbtq

They say:

20% of millenials identify as LGBTQ 12% of millenials identify as transgender or gender nonconforming

Here's a post someone made on our community about it: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/625t/i_made_charts_from_2017_glaad_survey_data_showing/

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Take another look at that data. 35+ was at 1 percent by that data which is still 1/8 those who reported as cis and gay or bi.

It was up to 2 percent on the 18-34

[–]Shadow_Lurker 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The point of the post is to adress the double speak, as the transactivist in question wants to simultaneously:

1- Be recognized as a woman, and thus, have access to sex-exclusive spaces reserved to them.

2 - Not be barred from gay man's spaces, even though as a 'woman' (and a straight one at that) they should have no business being in them.

There's no secret here: if someone want's to 'identify away' of their biological sex, they should also be willing abandon the previous sex-exclusive spaces they used to frequent. This is basic consistency.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The problem is you aren’t pushing for either/or on men’s and women’s spaces. You are pushing for neither.

[–]Shadow_Lurker 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Sex-segregated spaces exist for a reason, something that most of these people doesn't seem to understand.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And you seem to want trans women barred from both. I personally wouldn’t enter men’s spaces because it would obviously be unsafe but logically we belong in one or the other and you seem to be saying that we should be banned from both.

[–]Shadow_Lurker 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Answer me: if what the TRA's want suddenly becomes reality and self-identification becomes the only criteria for access to woman's spaces, then what would bar fetishists from taking advantage of it?

An average looking trans woman will mostly use the woman's restroom without being noticed, so this is not a problem for them. The ones that scream the loudest about this are the "it's ma'am" Jessica Yaniv types, who have no business being in such spaces.

The worst and less adressed problem in trans spaces today is the "uwu culture" that conflates fetishists and sex pests with trans people. The second one is homophobia. As long as TRA's don't properly access this two problems, the whole movement will continue to lose popularity, as recent developments have demonstrated.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

if what the TRA's want suddenly becomes reality and self-identification becomes the only criteria for access to woman's spaces, then what would bar fetishists from taking advantage of it?

Nothing theoretically? That’s why I am against self ID.

[–]Shadow_Lurker 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your're on the minority though, as most transgender lobby groups are pushing hard for self-id.

[–]Willpoll 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Well my logic is this: let's say a trans woman is attracted to men. therefore they could either be really a lesbian, straight, or bi. in none of these scenarios does this trans person really have the how should we say opportunity to go into gay men's spaces. The closest thing would be straight spaces which aren't really necessary since the majority of the world are straight anyways. I think the biggest issue however other than arguing if a trans woman attracted to solely men is straight is presentation, especially when that presentation appears to go all over the map according to the paragraph. Of course gay men are going to be uncomfortable with someone who presents as a woman coming into our spaces you know? In your second sentence you talk about men's spaces. that's not what we're talking about here. we're talking about a subset of mens spaces, gay mens spaces. It's not that we don't want you in men's spaces but rather that people are going to uncomfortable if someone who effectively looks straight goes into gay men's spaces From an outsider prospective I would figure it would feel sort of invalidating wouldn't it? Being a trans woman attracted to men so technically straight but being a top for gay men???

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

So you don’t think bi men should be allowed either?

I’m coming from a perspective as a very visibly trans person. Everyone is ho sees me knows I am a trans woman so I don’t think there is the disruption problem you suggested by entering a men’s space. The only way someone to pipe be uncomfortable would be if they believed trans women are women. Failing that what is the difference between my presence in the space and a drag queen?

It seems there is a duality that has to be somewhere. Either we are women and belong in women’s spaces which most here would object to or we are men and belong in men’s spaces which Ah wig seems to be objected to in this case. I know I personally wouldn’t feel safe in most men’s spaces since the likelihood of physical violence against me would be much higher, but you see ww what I am saying? If we are men to you it would be wrong to keep us out of men’s spaces and if we are women it would be wrong to keep us from those. We need one or the other.

[–]Willpoll 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Well no. Bi men are still men loving men. If a trans woman is attracted to men wouldn't you consider that to be straight? Your conflating men's spaces with gay men's spaces. I have no problem with trans women in men's spaces. however trans women in gay men's spaces is a different matter entirely.

I'm coming from the perspective that if a trans woman is attracted to men and at least tries to present themselves as a woman, why would they think that gay men would be comfortable with someone who presents as a woman in their spaces. The main roadblock here is that you are conflating gay men's spaces with men's spaces in general. Spaces are created by people to feel, well safe and to meet people who are like each other. the typical reason for gay men's spaces is for men to go find other people attracted to men who consider themselves men. you said gay men's spaces in your first sentence but since then all you've been saying is men's spaces. Trans women in men's spaces are fine imo but to expect trans women who are attracted to men, someone who is effectively straight by societies standards into gay men's spaces is a tad over the line. sure you need men's or women's spaces but you don't need gay men's spaces especially when by your own logic your straight

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If a trans woman is attracted to men wouldn't you consider that to be straight?

Me? Yes,basically though it’s not so simple. I am biromantic and spent a long time living as an ostensibly gay man so I do sometimes still think of myself as gay even though I consider myself a woman. Though my personal history is a bit tangent. But I also think we should be in women’s spaces generally (or third spaces if they are available). The issue I’m pointing out is if you don’t want trans women in women’s spaces, like most here apparently, the how can you say that they shouldn’t be allowed in men’s spaces either? If you think we are men and shouldn’t be in women’s spaces then how can you argue that trans women who are attracted to men don’t belong in gay men’s spaces? Are we men or not to you?

[–]Willpoll 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To answer this question, well it's quite simple really. there is no single gender space for straight people. they wouldn't be straight if they looked for people who identified as the same gender. So there is no need for straight women's spaces at least when it comes to the dating scene. The only spaces available when it comes to straight dating are mixed spaces. if a trans woman is trying to date a man, then there is never a need for a single gender space. I can say that they shouldn't be allowed in gay men's spaces because it's a matter of mindset. If you are effectively straight and identify as a woman why is there a need for gay men's spaces when literally everything about straight dating and interaction is this third space??? the men vs women's spaces is an entirely different argument. And as for whether or not your men I am as of yet undecided for the most part on that. I am not saying you should be banned from men's spaces but that's sex segregation, not sexuality segregation

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

While I'm not a man (gay or otherwise), the following hasn't been brought up yet and seems like it might help answer this question:

Though you are indeed a man to gay men, that's not actually the point here. It's really about what kind of man you are. And that's a man who: 1.] has rejected being a man; and 2.] believes that "gender identity" overrides biological sex.

Both of these things are, at best, inherently insulting to gay men; at worst, they're flat-out threatening.

Gay men's spaces are defined by valuing maleness (their very identity = one's own maleness + that of those to whom one is attracted); what place does a man who's disavowed being male have there? Why would he belong any more than a black person who's openly disavowed their blackness and identifies as white would in black spaces? And, especially given that the "gay men = women" equation is a core element of homophobia, this also has an ominous aspect (gay men expected to "trans" into the women that they "should" have been, a la Iran).

Similarly, your belief that gender > sex is in opposition to gay identity itself, as that's based on biological sex and can't exist without it. Since this has the potential to erase them, "offensive" is about the mildest response you can expect from gay men here.

So what spaces are appropriate for you? Well, certainly not women's (sex-based identity again + the pervasive threat males pose to females), so either third spaces or straight men's spaces. Granted, the latter are another sex-based identity, but one so powerful that they're probably safe from erasure (or feeling threatened by it).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Leaving aside the patently offensive allegations that my existence itself is somehow dangerous.

I am by your reckoning a man, who looks like a man albiet one with an unusual presentation, who is interested in men. What concieveable reason would I have to be in a place with straight men, espescially given that the majority of violence against us is perpetrated by Straight men?

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Leaving aside the patently offensive allegations that my existence itself is somehow dangerous.

You are a man. Men endanger women. Women not having to worry about your being dangerous to them > your being offended.

I am by your reckoning a man, who looks like a man albiet one with an unusual presentation, who is interested in men. What concieveable reason would I have to be in a place with straight men, espescially given that the majority of violence against us is perpetrated by Straight men?

That may well be a problem for you. Emphasis on "you". It is not gay men's problem, nor women's problem.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The issue here is that trans women don't "identify" as men yet want access to men's spaces. It's like when trans men get arrested and suddenly they want to be put in the women's prison even though they don't identify as such.

Those of us who are on the side of biology are well aware that trans women are male and trans men are female. However the problem OP's post is addressing is how, using TRAs own logic, it makes no sense to allow trans women in gay men's spaces.

what is the difference between my presence in the space and a drag queen?

The difference is a drag queen knows he's a man and doesn't try to pretend he isn't. He's not trying to be a woman,. He knows he's a man in drag. Trans women, whether they pass or not, are trying to distance themselves from being men and in doing so lose the ability to have access to certain things when it's convenient. This is why we want to drop the T. All it does is overcomplicate things unnecessarily when discussing LGB issues. You don't "need" one or the other. Yes you should rightfully be excluded from women only spaces because you aren't female. However, actions have consequences. If you willfully distance yourself from being a man by calling yourself a trans woman, non binary, or whatever, the consequence is you lose access to male only spaces. Because the men in those spaces aren't trying to separate their identify from their maleness.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So you think that trans women belong nowhere then. Neither women’s spaces nor men’s.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ideally I think trans people would get their own spaces where it's appropriate (sports, shelters, prisons, etc), catered to their unique trans situations and issues. But that's not good enough for most trans people. There was a trans man I read about recently who was arrested and naturally wasn't put in the men's prison because it would be unsafe for any female bodied person. Putting her in the women's prison wasn't suitable either because she was trans so they put her in solitary confinement until they figured out what to do with her.

In the article she then complained that she was 'discriminated against' because the only reason they put her in solitary was because she was trans. Well, yeah? That's kinda how it works when, regarding the two usual options, one option is unsafe and the other leaves the prison wide open for the pitchfork mob to cry 'transphobia'. They accommodated her anyway with a third option (the best one imo) and it still wasn't good enough. I've seen this so often where people will offer a third option to a trans person but that's not validating enough because they want to be one of the guys or one of the girls but flip flop when it suits them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment outlawed in most countries. I think dedicated trans facility hubs would be best prison wise but it’s certainty but the “best option” since solitary amounts to torture.

[–]SheepleArePeople2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think sex segregated spaces should be segregated by sex. Thats it.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hey-- I don't speak for everyone else here, although I do think my opinion is probably similar to most people's here.

It sounds like you are mixing up "gay male spaces" and "male spaces".

You say:

then don’t you think that gay men’s spaces are where we should be?

IF a transwoman is a homosexual male, that is, a male exclusively attracted to males-- then that person is also a gay male and therefore belongs in gay men's spaces. If a transwoman is a bisexual or straight biological man who identifies as trans, then they would not (edit: although IDK how "gay male spaces" feel about bisexuals, so take that with a grain of salt?).

I am lesbian not a gay man, and that is what I would say about a transman who is female and homosexual (that the transman belongs in lesbian spaces).

Not trying to speak for gay men though, someone feel free to correct me if I am missing some context here.

edit: fixed formatting

edit2: ugh that made it worse, now it's better lol.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That’s kind of my point. I’m a trans woman who is attracted to men (among others) so if you consider me a man I would belong in those spaces. If I’m a woman I would belong in those. The issue is many here seem to want us in neither.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

who is attracted to men (among others)

If you are not exclusively attracted to men, then it sounds like a bisexual space might be the best fit? For the example of men-- I think it makes sense for there to be both a) a place for homosexual men to hang out as well as b) bisexual AND homosexual men and c) a place for bisexuals to hang out. There is nothing wrong with each of those communities existing; no man can belong to all 3, simply by definition of what those words mean.

If you are talking about gay male transwomen being excluded from gay male communities-- that's an interesting point, and I agree, worth talking about. Gender dysphoria is a real phenomenon that affects many LGB people; how can we support those who identify as trans? I don't think rejection and shunning is the answer. Maybe I will make a post about it.