Men's IssuesA transwoman's objection to gay male spaces

submitted by JulienMayfair from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]Willpoll 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Well my logic is this: let's say a trans woman is attracted to men. therefore they could either be really a lesbian, straight, or bi. in none of these scenarios does this trans person really have the how should we say opportunity to go into gay men's spaces. The closest thing would be straight spaces which aren't really necessary since the majority of the world are straight anyways. I think the biggest issue however other than arguing if a trans woman attracted to solely men is straight is presentation, especially when that presentation appears to go all over the map according to the paragraph. Of course gay men are going to be uncomfortable with someone who presents as a woman coming into our spaces you know? In your second sentence you talk about men's spaces. that's not what we're talking about here. we're talking about a subset of mens spaces, gay mens spaces. It's not that we don't want you in men's spaces but rather that people are going to uncomfortable if someone who effectively looks straight goes into gay men's spaces From an outsider prospective I would figure it would feel sort of invalidating wouldn't it? Being a trans woman attracted to men so technically straight but being a top for gay men???

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

So you don’t think bi men should be allowed either?

I’m coming from a perspective as a very visibly trans person. Everyone is ho sees me knows I am a trans woman so I don’t think there is the disruption problem you suggested by entering a men’s space. The only way someone to pipe be uncomfortable would be if they believed trans women are women. Failing that what is the difference between my presence in the space and a drag queen?

It seems there is a duality that has to be somewhere. Either we are women and belong in women’s spaces which most here would object to or we are men and belong in men’s spaces which Ah wig seems to be objected to in this case. I know I personally wouldn’t feel safe in most men’s spaces since the likelihood of physical violence against me would be much higher, but you see ww what I am saying? If we are men to you it would be wrong to keep us out of men’s spaces and if we are women it would be wrong to keep us from those. We need one or the other.

[–]Willpoll 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Well no. Bi men are still men loving men. If a trans woman is attracted to men wouldn't you consider that to be straight? Your conflating men's spaces with gay men's spaces. I have no problem with trans women in men's spaces. however trans women in gay men's spaces is a different matter entirely.

I'm coming from the perspective that if a trans woman is attracted to men and at least tries to present themselves as a woman, why would they think that gay men would be comfortable with someone who presents as a woman in their spaces. The main roadblock here is that you are conflating gay men's spaces with men's spaces in general. Spaces are created by people to feel, well safe and to meet people who are like each other. the typical reason for gay men's spaces is for men to go find other people attracted to men who consider themselves men. you said gay men's spaces in your first sentence but since then all you've been saying is men's spaces. Trans women in men's spaces are fine imo but to expect trans women who are attracted to men, someone who is effectively straight by societies standards into gay men's spaces is a tad over the line. sure you need men's or women's spaces but you don't need gay men's spaces especially when by your own logic your straight

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If a trans woman is attracted to men wouldn't you consider that to be straight?

Me? Yes,basically though it’s not so simple. I am biromantic and spent a long time living as an ostensibly gay man so I do sometimes still think of myself as gay even though I consider myself a woman. Though my personal history is a bit tangent. But I also think we should be in women’s spaces generally (or third spaces if they are available). The issue I’m pointing out is if you don’t want trans women in women’s spaces, like most here apparently, the how can you say that they shouldn’t be allowed in men’s spaces either? If you think we are men and shouldn’t be in women’s spaces then how can you argue that trans women who are attracted to men don’t belong in gay men’s spaces? Are we men or not to you?

[–]Willpoll 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To answer this question, well it's quite simple really. there is no single gender space for straight people. they wouldn't be straight if they looked for people who identified as the same gender. So there is no need for straight women's spaces at least when it comes to the dating scene. The only spaces available when it comes to straight dating are mixed spaces. if a trans woman is trying to date a man, then there is never a need for a single gender space. I can say that they shouldn't be allowed in gay men's spaces because it's a matter of mindset. If you are effectively straight and identify as a woman why is there a need for gay men's spaces when literally everything about straight dating and interaction is this third space??? the men vs women's spaces is an entirely different argument. And as for whether or not your men I am as of yet undecided for the most part on that. I am not saying you should be banned from men's spaces but that's sex segregation, not sexuality segregation

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

While I'm not a man (gay or otherwise), the following hasn't been brought up yet and seems like it might help answer this question:

Though you are indeed a man to gay men, that's not actually the point here. It's really about what kind of man you are. And that's a man who: 1.] has rejected being a man; and 2.] believes that "gender identity" overrides biological sex.

Both of these things are, at best, inherently insulting to gay men; at worst, they're flat-out threatening.

Gay men's spaces are defined by valuing maleness (their very identity = one's own maleness + that of those to whom one is attracted); what place does a man who's disavowed being male have there? Why would he belong any more than a black person who's openly disavowed their blackness and identifies as white would in black spaces? And, especially given that the "gay men = women" equation is a core element of homophobia, this also has an ominous aspect (gay men expected to "trans" into the women that they "should" have been, a la Iran).

Similarly, your belief that gender > sex is in opposition to gay identity itself, as that's based on biological sex and can't exist without it. Since this has the potential to erase them, "offensive" is about the mildest response you can expect from gay men here.

So what spaces are appropriate for you? Well, certainly not women's (sex-based identity again + the pervasive threat males pose to females), so either third spaces or straight men's spaces. Granted, the latter are another sex-based identity, but one so powerful that they're probably safe from erasure (or feeling threatened by it).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Leaving aside the patently offensive allegations that my existence itself is somehow dangerous.

I am by your reckoning a man, who looks like a man albiet one with an unusual presentation, who is interested in men. What concieveable reason would I have to be in a place with straight men, espescially given that the majority of violence against us is perpetrated by Straight men?

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Leaving aside the patently offensive allegations that my existence itself is somehow dangerous.

You are a man. Men endanger women. Women not having to worry about your being dangerous to them > your being offended.

I am by your reckoning a man, who looks like a man albiet one with an unusual presentation, who is interested in men. What concieveable reason would I have to be in a place with straight men, espescially given that the majority of violence against us is perpetrated by Straight men?

That may well be a problem for you. Emphasis on "you". It is not gay men's problem, nor women's problem.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The issue here is that trans women don't "identify" as men yet want access to men's spaces. It's like when trans men get arrested and suddenly they want to be put in the women's prison even though they don't identify as such.

Those of us who are on the side of biology are well aware that trans women are male and trans men are female. However the problem OP's post is addressing is how, using TRAs own logic, it makes no sense to allow trans women in gay men's spaces.

what is the difference between my presence in the space and a drag queen?

The difference is a drag queen knows he's a man and doesn't try to pretend he isn't. He's not trying to be a woman,. He knows he's a man in drag. Trans women, whether they pass or not, are trying to distance themselves from being men and in doing so lose the ability to have access to certain things when it's convenient. This is why we want to drop the T. All it does is overcomplicate things unnecessarily when discussing LGB issues. You don't "need" one or the other. Yes you should rightfully be excluded from women only spaces because you aren't female. However, actions have consequences. If you willfully distance yourself from being a man by calling yourself a trans woman, non binary, or whatever, the consequence is you lose access to male only spaces. Because the men in those spaces aren't trying to separate their identify from their maleness.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So you think that trans women belong nowhere then. Neither women’s spaces nor men’s.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ideally I think trans people would get their own spaces where it's appropriate (sports, shelters, prisons, etc), catered to their unique trans situations and issues. But that's not good enough for most trans people. There was a trans man I read about recently who was arrested and naturally wasn't put in the men's prison because it would be unsafe for any female bodied person. Putting her in the women's prison wasn't suitable either because she was trans so they put her in solitary confinement until they figured out what to do with her.

In the article she then complained that she was 'discriminated against' because the only reason they put her in solitary was because she was trans. Well, yeah? That's kinda how it works when, regarding the two usual options, one option is unsafe and the other leaves the prison wide open for the pitchfork mob to cry 'transphobia'. They accommodated her anyway with a third option (the best one imo) and it still wasn't good enough. I've seen this so often where people will offer a third option to a trans person but that's not validating enough because they want to be one of the guys or one of the girls but flip flop when it suits them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment outlawed in most countries. I think dedicated trans facility hubs would be best prison wise but it’s certainty but the “best option” since solitary amounts to torture.

[–]SheepleArePeople2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think sex segregated spaces should be segregated by sex. Thats it.